Meeting India's military challenge

[vsdoc]

Blain bhai, if, as you so sagely put it, India has no realistic options, then why are we uselessly arming ourselves to the teeth day by inexorable day .... for defense against you?

Or as a cash bailout to the western arms industry deprived of a good pipeline of wars worldwide ..... out of the goodness of our hearts?

Or are we building an ever larger army as part of the Congress's latest rural employment guarantee five-year plan?

I am sure you do realise, as someone with more than a fair share of military acumen, that india long ago crested the credible defensive threshold ..... and anything above and beyond that is only building towards one thing.

And about the "tumko saath lekar rahenge" ..... yes, that would be the last clutch at a straw of a drowning man ..... but we all know how much floatation that straw actually affords the one sinking don't we?

Cheers, Doc

 

[rastor]

There are no realistic options available to India. This is the hard fact and Pakistan will make sure that this is registered really well anytime there is an attempt to push.

Pakistan ka number kabhi nahi aaega aur agar aaega tau India kay saath aaega. Let there be no doubt about this.

Pakistan will never allow a repeat of 71 even in a limited manner again without hurting the other side disproportionately. The escalation that happens beyond our response is something that everyone needs to worry about, not just Pakistan

Sir, I have been meaning to ask this for some time. In the event of total war. What kind of targets will pakistan choose in India for its nukes? Apart from Tier-1 cities (like Delhi, Mumbai) will the nukes (last open-source estimate puts it at around 70-90) be used for say taking out Indian naval/Army assets or will it be used to take out Tier-2 cities (like pune ... etc) too.

 

[vsdoc]

^^^ Pune is Southern Command. It is also the largest Sukhoi air base. It also houses some of the top military institutions and research wings and armamemt factories. It is also a manufacturing (auto etc.) and IT/ITES hub of India. I am certain we will have to go in the first wave.

Cheers, Doc

 

[karan.1970]

^^^ Pune is Southern Command. It is also the largest Sukhoi air base. It also houses some of the top military institutions and research wings and armamemt factories. It is also a manufacturing (auto etc.) and IT/ITES hub of India. I am certain we will have to go in the first wave.

Cheers, Doc

So here's a morbid question.. 90 nukes.. what all will it take out?? Is it one nuke per city.. Or may be Pakistan will need to send in more than 1 missile per city to counter against malfunctions(no disrespect intended) and or ABMD. My question is this.. How accurate is MAD in context of India and Pakistan's fledgling nuclear arsenal.. I agree that India will get pushed back many decades and Pakistan (due to smaller size and lesser number of urban centers) may even go back further, but MAD seems a little far fetched..

On a saner note, even if it comes to a nuclear exchange, I dont think either of the country will be able to get off more than a single salvo before rest of the world comes down on us like a ton of bricks.. So keeping that in mind, does anyone have a view on a realistic scenario??

 

[fatman17]

The fact of the matter is simple ..... every time the Indian war machinery escalates and does not strike, it leaves in its wake many wet undergarments in the pakistani military establishment.

if that is the 'thinking' going on amongst the indian top brass, then we need'nt worry!

 

[vsdoc]

I've said it before ..... MAD is a concept past its sell by date.

Bravado about bigger spunkier gonads notwithstanding ..... the Pakistanis don't have the balls to press the button.

Come time, they will have to take the medicine handed out to them. Which will at least ensure there is a tomorrow for their children ..... unlike if they went on a gonad airing trip.

In case of a nuclear exchange, I do not see what or how the world community is going to do to stop the madness ..... or come down like a ton of bricks on us as you put it ..... seeing as by then we both would already have had a few dozen tons of bricks flung around.

The comfort blanket of MAD is threadbare and the cold is seeping through ..... to give the pakistanis fresh goosebumps on their already existing ones.

Cheers, Doc

 

[vsdoc]

if that is the 'thinking' going on amongst the indian top brass, then we need'nt worry!

Sirji I was under the impression that you guys were not worried.

What happened to disturb that?

Cheers, Doc

 

[TaimiKhan]

Why do all of you rather majority of the guys talk of nuking the cities of each other ??

Nukes doesn't means they are gonna be used on cities at first go.

God forbid, if a nuke exchange did happen, it will be first on the tactical level, meaning on the battlefield where most of the danger from opposing troops would be to stop the advance.

Well as Pakistan does not has Cold Start kind of doctrines or ambitions to capture large chunk of Indian territory or divide India in two just like India has those ambitions, so if such an ambition by Indians is put into effect and God forbid it starts succeeding then the Pakistan's first strike policy will come into effect, to use a tactical level nuke or nukes to stop the advancing Indians, as using of such tactical nuke does gives a lot of chances that Indian ambitions may not get fulfilled.

Nuking each other cities is and would be the last resort, when even tactical nukes strategy fails, and InshAllah such time won't come.

So stop talking of nuking each other cities as if its a child's play.

 

[fatman17]

Sirji I was under the impression that you guys were not worried.

What happened to disturb that?

Cheers, Doc

Doc, its guys like Muneer Akram which 'keeps us talking'!!!

 

[vsdoc]

Why do all of you rather majority of the guys talk of nuking the cities of each other ??

Nukes doesn't means they are gonna be used on cities at first go.

God forbid, if a nuke exchange did happen, it will be first on the tactical level, meaning on the battlefield where most of the danger from opposing troops would be to stop the advance.

Well as Pakistan does not has Cold Start kind of doctrines or ambitions to capture large chunk of Indian territory or divide India in two just like India has those ambitions, so if such an ambition by Indians is put into effect and God forbid it starts succeeding then the Pakistan's first strike policy will come into effect, to use a tactical level nuke or nukes to stop the advancing Indians, as using of such tactical nuke does gives a lot of chances that Indian ambitions may not get fulfilled.

Nuking each other cities is and would be the last resort, when even tactical nukes strategy fails, and InshAllah such time won't come.

So stop talking of nuking each other cities as if its a child's play.

Taimi bhai, thank you for sparing our cities .... one jadoo ki jhappi for Taimi from all Indians here!

But tell me Taimi, what happens if the "advancing Indians" have already overrun Lahore ..... or Islamabad ..... or Karachi ..... and stop advancing ..... and wait ...... thodi daaru ..... thoda relaxation ..... some bridge.

Will you still use these "tactical" nukes then on these "advanced Indians" general taimi sir?

Cheers, Doc

 

[vsdoc]

Doc, its guys like Muneer Akram which 'keeps us talking'!!!

I agree ..... talking is where we can get most done.

Slightly OT but seeing as you are Chirman of Think Tank sirji, in case war does break out between India and Pakistan, what is Pak Defense forum ki policy regarding Indian members?

Cheers, Doc

 

[praveen]

Gentlemen here is some food for thought
Fatman17 sir especially for you regarding Cold Start
India can take on Pak & China simultaneously

Indian detterence doctrine
Do India need WMD? - Page 2

India and Nuclear testing and how detterence works in the case of China and India
Indian Nuclear Testing

Deterrence as an operational objective with respect to Chinese
Deterrence as an Operational Objective question

The above discussions are done by professionals and we can use them as reference in this discussions

 

[praveen]

Gentlemen here is some food for thought
Fatman17 sir especially for you regarding Cold Start
India can take on Pak & China simultaneously

Indian detterence doctrine
Do India need WMD? - Page 2

India and Nuclear testing and how detterence works in the case of China and India
Indian Nuclear Testing

Deterrence as an operational objective with respect to Chinese
Deterrence as an Operational Objective question

The above discussions are done by professionals and we can use them as reference in this discussions

 

[fatman17]

I agree ..... talking is where we can get most done.

Slightly OT but seeing as you are Chirman of Think Tank sirji, in case war does break out between India and Pakistan, what is Pak Defense forum ki policy regarding Indian members?

Cheers, Doc

put on your helmets and duck!

 

[Spitfighter]

There are no realistic options available to India. This is the hard fact and Pakistan will make sure that this is registered really well anytime there is an attempt to push.

Pakistan ka number kabhi nahi aaega aur agar aaega tau India kay saath aaega. Let there be no doubt about this.

Pakistan will never allow a repeat of 71 even in a limited manner again without hurting the other side disproportionately. The escalation that happens beyond our response is something that everyone needs to worry about, not just Pakistan

How will that benefit Pakistan? If Pakistan responds 'disproportionately', don't you think India can do worse?

Pakistan will not escalate the conflict, they can't afford to, I don't think they'd want to give India an open invitation to invade and start a full scale war all along the eastern front. I'm pretty sure everyone in Pakistan understands that they cannot win a conventional war against India. This talk of a disproportionate response is counter intuitive and is a bluff.

If you were implying that Pakistan will go nuclear, then regardless of how many Indians die, and we have 1,200 million, not one Pakistani will survive to talk about it. Nuclear weapons are meant for deterrance, so they will NOT be used unless we try to take them out, destroy Pakistan completely or use nuclear weapons first.

Respond to a few cruise missiles with an invitation for war that you can't win??

Your government/military/ISI isn't that incompetent.

The escalation that happens beyond our response is something that everyone needs to worry about, not just Pakistan

Pointing a gun to your head and hoping the world will intervene?


well its worked, that's for sure, but I'm pretty sure we'll be at war within a year or two. India will call Pakistan's bluff, its an eventuality, I think we can both agree on that. I don't know why you think India doesn't have any options, we can be just as suicidal as you guys if the situation demands it

No pain, no gain.