Medieval Afghanistan extended up to Sukkur of Sindh

[Braith]

Wasn't upper sindh or Bhakkar under Kalhoros and later on Talpurs till British times. I just don't see any mention of pashtun settlement there, people don't just disappear out of thin air.

Kalhoras and Talpurs are of very later times...................the source i am quoting is talking about year 1254 AD...and populations or nations dont disappear into thin air but they can decline , and can even become extinct from an area..............Dilazaks were once as numerous as Yousafzais, but now have only few villages in Peshawar and Haripur...


And wars used to have very drastic effects on the population of nations or tribes in medieval period, especially the repeated and continuous wars.....for example Hasnis were once very powerful and prominent , and were keeping Marri-Balochs as hamsayas.......but continuous wars with Balochs and Brahuis weakened them, so that they were overpowered by their own hamsayas i.e Marris in late 18th century.......nowadays they have very small population....the same phenomenon was observed in case of many Red Indian tribes, who had larger populations in 19th century then they have nowadays.

 

[niaz]

Very Wikipedia-ish and weak grasp on history, also very derailed commentary as the article is not about Khurasan but the extent of Roh or Afghanistan in the direction of Sindh in early medieval period. Also you did google search and checked about definition of Middlle ages but that is of Europe , keep in mind that medieval period in Indian context is from 8th to 18th century.

Medieval Afghanistan or Roh was not part of medieval Khurasan. Kandahar was not of Khurasan, as attested by Babur who says that country of Kandahar lies between Khurasan and Hindustan. I am sure you dont know what the hell is "Roh".....read this article if you have any interest in the topic http://www.barmazid.com/2016/09/roh-medieval-afghanistan_7.html

The regions like "Roh" or Afghanistan, Khurasan", Turkestan" etc had never fixed boundaries as they were not states or kingdoms........the extent of Roh (medieval Afghanistan) changed with expansionism ,migration and expulsion of Pashtun tribes.......Pashtun belt was generally known by name of Afghanistan in central asia and India. ..... And for your kind information, the official name of Ahmad Shah Abdali's empire (and that of his successors) was not Afghanistan !. And he was not the first man to establish a native Afghan dynasty

Honourable Sir,

In my post I simple try to prove contested that the title that Medieval Afghanistan extended down to Sind was incorrect. I stand by my contention.

I have used European definition of the Middle Ages because these terms were coined in Europe. Middle Age is translation of the Latin medium ovum and the term was first used around 1610. However, as I have stated these are approximate periods.

In the East, Roman Empire did not collapse but as Byzantine Rome continued until mid-15th Century. In the Islamic world it was the Mongol who brought in collapse of the civilization in the early 13th Century. If you define Middle Age as a prelude to the modern era, then you are right. In Turkey the Middle Age continued until the fall of the Ottomans and rise of the Ata Turk. In Iran until fall of the Qajar’s and rise of Raza Shah Pahlavi and in the subcontinent until1857.

Afghanistan never really came out of the middle Ages. On the contrary, Taliban by banning the radio, TV, the tape recorders and the female education, dragged Afghanistan back into the Dark Ages.

The name Abgan has been occasionally referered to since the Sassanian times. Afghanistan simply meaning land of the Afghans. However it is a historical fact that no country with defined boundaries called Afghanistan existed before Ahmed Shah Abdali established his kingdom..

In the History of Baluchistan ( Rai Bahadur Hatu Ram) published in 1907, of which I own the Urdu translation by Dr Salem Akhtar, on notes “Kalat Agency is divided in two district , one is called Khorasan which is upper mountainous part and they area on the valley is called Katchie. The first area (Khorasan) includes cities of Mastung, Kalat, Sorab, Khuzdar & Zehri”

‘Great Seljuk Empire’ written by ACS Peacock states cities of Herat, Nishapur, Ghazna & Balkh are described as part of Khorasan. Because Babar says Kandhar was not Khorasan does change definition of Kharaosan. Regions are seldom strictly defined. For example FF Regiment is also known as PIFFERS, because its original name was Punjab Irregular Frontier Force Regiment; Does this mean KPK (NWFP of old) was part of Punjab?

You have stated:

“And he was not the first man to establish a native Afghan dynasty”

By this are you referring to the dynasties of Ghor & Ferozkoh or the Hotakis? Ghori sultans were not fully independent and paid tribute to the Seljukis. When Izzuddin Hussein of Ghor refused to pay tribute, Sultan Sanjar defeated and captured him. He was released after he agreed to pay tribute again.

Admittedly, Hotakis were fully independent for short period after Mirwais Hotaki (Ghilzai) revolted and killed Safavid Governor in 1709. However Hotaki rule was ended in 1738 by Nader Shah Afshar. I also agree that during the Sadozai period, Durrani Empire was not called Afghanistan. To the best of my knowledge the name Afghanistan was adopted by the Barakzais in the 19th century. Nevertheless the modern nation state that we know as Afghanistan did not exist before Ahmad Shah.

I welcome and enjoy scholarly debate because no matter how much one knows, there is a lot one does not. But you have insulted me without reason. Does insulting people you have never met and don’t know makes you feel important?. If that is the case then you must be carrying a big chip on your shoulders. One does need to be disagreeable to disagree.

You write “I am sure you don’t know what the hell is “Roh”.

Don’t know how old you are, but I had heard about ‘Roh back is 1956, that is most probably before you were born. After switching from the Cambridge board, I was preparing for the Matric Exam and came across Zabita Khan & Abdul Qadir Rohilla who blinded the emperor Shah Alam II in 1788. My history teacher had then informed me that ‘Roh’ meant a mountain or ‘Koh’ and Rohila Afghans were so nicknamed because of their uncouth behaviour when compared with the city dwellers.

Most of the information in the link you gave is already available with me. History of the Afghans by Bernhard Dorn (translated from Persian original written by Neamat Ullah) on page 40

Quote

In concurrence with his empire and check the infidels Moezz Uddin prevailed upon the Afghans to move from the Kohistan of Ghor and to take up their abode in Koh Suleiman, Ashnagur and the territories of Bajour, from the frontiers of Kabul to Neelab and from the districts of about Kandhar to the Multan, at any place he thought fit and convenient:- ( Roh is the same as Koh 'mountain'; its length extends from Bajour as far as the districts of Bahkkar, its breadth from Hassam Abdal to Kabul); Candhar lies within the confines of this mountain district…..)

Unquote

I am a student of history and have more 100 books on the history of various countries in my personal library. For the your information, I purchased the above book from Vanguard Books, Jinnah Supermarket, Islamabad in the year 2000.

Pakistan, Iran & Afghanistan being regions of my particular interest, I own and have read “Histories by Herodotus (oldest history book ever written, mostly about the history of Persia, Greece & Egypt)” written circa 440 BC. Babur Nama, Humayun Nama, Literary history of Iran in 4 volumes , The Great Seljuk Empire , Medieval Persia, History of the Mongols, The Hazaras of Afghanistan in English.

Adaab e Alamgiri, history of Iran after Islam and history of Iran from ancient times to now, in Persian.

Tabqat e Naseri, Aieen e Akbari, Tareekh Baluchistan by Dr Saleem Akhtar, Arz e Pakistan ki Tareekh by Rashid Akhtar Nadvi in Unrdu. I also have read Sindhu desh by GM Syed (translation of Sindhu JI Saanjah). Additionally I also own and have read biographies of Tamerlane, Changez Khan & Shershah Suri.

Wikipedia or any other reference from google will only give what is written in other books. I admit that I google and also occasionally consult Wikipedia but mostly to double check the dates and the timeline.

 

[Braith]

Its interesting to see that the one writing paragraph after paragraph, and is bragging about his collection of books and his knowledge, is still unable to understand the simple and clear point here that the word "Medieval Afghanistan" here doesnt refer to the kingdom founded by Ahmad Shah Abdali in 1747......the dismissal of the facts from the learned member was just knee-jerk reaction on reading the name of Afghanistan......this is obvious from his views about todays Afghanistan which he has unnecessarily brought up in the above post. " [Qoute] Afghanistan never really came out of the middle Ages. On the contrary, Taliban by banning the radio, TV, the tape recorders and the female education, dragged Afghanistan back into the Dark Ages." [end Quote]


The only member who is not confused and who is moving on the discussion by asking meaningful and relevant questions in response to the article, is @save_ghenda

 

[Joe Shearer]

Its interesting to see that the one writing paragraph after paragraph, and is bragging about his collection of books and his knowledge, is still unable to understand the simple and clear point here that the word "Medieval Afghanistan" here doesnt refer to the kingdom founded by Ahmad Shah Abdali in 1747......the dismissal of the facts from the learned member was just knee-jerk reaction on reading the name of Afghanistan......this is obvious from his views about todays Afghanistan which he has unnecessarily brought up in the above post. " [Qoute] Afghanistan never really came out of the middle Ages. On the contrary, Taliban by banning the radio, TV, the tape recorders and the female education, dragged Afghanistan back into the Dark Ages." [end Quote]


The only member who is not confused and who is moving on the discussion by asking meaningful and relevant questions in response to the article, is @save_ghenda

Given a choice between a member who has been sound and accurate on every topic for the last seven years that I have been on the forum, and somebody who seems to have picked up all his information from the Internet, there is not much doubt about whom to rely upon.

There were Afghan sultans in Odisha; Bengal went through a long period under very well-settled Afghan sultans; parts of UP were/are still named after their Afghan legacy; even three generations ago, Pashto was spoken in those parts; were they all Afghanistan?

A sincere suggestion: stick to your speciality. A corollary: find it first. It is not history.

 

[Braith]

The learned member has given reference of Hatu Ram's "Tarikh-i-Baluchistan"..........that author, on page-172 of his book, asserts that at one time there were no traces of Brahuis and Balochs in Kalat and Mastung and the areas were abodes of Afghans. That is, medieval Afghanistan once also extended up to Kalat of Baluchistan.

About Khurasan, the learned member is not aware of the simple fact that there was Khurasani group of nobles in the courts of Delhi sultanates , Deccan sultanates and Mughals.....and all of them were Persians from the Khurasan proper, none of them were Afghans. The very fact that Afghans have never been called Khurasanis in these sultanates, proves my point. Moreover listen to Ibn-i-Batuta who says that Kashlu Khan recruited soldiers from Turkestan, Afghanistan and Khurasan (Ibn-i-Batuta, Safarnama, Vol-I, p-557). . ........Khurasan was a wilayat of Afsharid and Durrani empires , and it more or less comprised of Khurasan proper with Nishapur and Mashad as its centers. Contemporary sources are not confused in excluding Afghanistan from Khurasan, "that Ghilzais from Kandahar were exiled to Khurasan (Mashad and Nishapur regions)" . Lets not delve on various loose and erroneous definitions of Khurasan, as for early Arabs all the lands east to Persia, including Transoxiana, was Khurasan, and for Barakzais entire Afghanistan from river Oxus to Indus was Khurasan.

 

[haviZsultan]

Pashtun history is very rich. It should be preserved. I have to note, however, that a lot of Pashtun nationalism and chauvinistic beliefs have seeped into the tales of history. It is beyond doubt that the Pashtuns had a great role in the history of the sub continent. From the Ghaznavids, Ghorids, Lodhis, Suris, Hotakis, Durannis etc there are none who have a history as rich as pashtuns. But some of the history is being used to push Pashtuns on a collision course with Pakistan.

The Afghan Pashtuns claim lar aw bar yaw afghan, north or south, one Afghan. They do not believe that Pakistani pashtuns can ever be patriotic which is a very wrong approach. Similarly they twist history too. If you look at how Mughals are demonized you will know. Now the reality is Pashtuns had a huge role in the Mughal empire too. But Afghan nationals focus on Khushal Khan Khattak and his words and actions at that time.

Khushal Khan Khattak is a select case however. How come Rehman Baba, Khushal Khan Khattaks sons and Mahabbat Khan remained loyal to the Mughals. In short even some of mughal history is part of Afghan/Pashtun history. The reason this is not promoted is to serve the Afghan national thinking. That Pakistan is an enemy of the Pashtuns and so forth.

 

[Braith]

Pashtun history is very rich. It should be preserved. I have to note, however, that a lot of Pashtun nationalism and chauvinistic beliefs have seeped into the tales of history. It is beyond doubt that the Pashtuns had a great role in the history of the sub continent. From the Ghaznavids, Ghorids, Lodhis, Suris, Hotakis, Durannis etc there are none who have a history as rich as pashtuns. But some of the history is being used to push Pashtuns on a collision course with Pakistan.

The Afghan Pashtuns claim lar aw bar yaw afghan, north or south, one Afghan. They do not believe that Pakistani pashtuns can ever be patriotic which is a very wrong approach. Similarly they twist history too. If you look at how Mughals are demonized you will know. Now the reality is Pashtuns had a huge role in the Mughal empire too. But Afghan nationals focus on Khushal Khan Khattak and his words and actions at that time.

Khushal Khan Khattak is a select case however. How come Rehman Baba, Khushal Khan Khattaks sons and Mahabbat Khan remained loyal to the Mughals. In short even some of mughal history is part of Afghan/Pashtun history. The reason this is not promoted is to serve the Afghan national thinking. That Pakistan is an enemy of the Pashtuns and so forth.

You always repeat yourself with this, and post this stuff on every thread which is about some segment of Pashtun history......kindly refrain from this behavior, and stick to the topic

 

[haviZsultan]

You always repeat yourself with this, and post this stuff on every thread which is about some segment of Pashtun history......kindly refrain from this behavior, and stick to the topic

Isn't Afghan/Pashtun history the topic at hand. If not then what did you aim to discuss on this thread about Medieval Afghanistan.

 

[WAJsal]

In my post I simple try to prove contested that the title that Medieval Afghanistan extended down to Sind was incorrect. I stand by my contention.

I have used European definition of the Middle Ages because these terms were coined in Europe. Middle Age is translation of the Latin medium ovum and the term was first used around 1610. However, as I have stated these are approximate periods.

Regret to state that it is completely the wrong title. The country we know as Afghanistan did not exist during the middle Ages.

The ‘Middle Age’ is about a thousand year period from end of the dark Age to the onset of the Renaissance. Since these are all approximate periods. This means middle Age is roughly from 6th or 7th Century AD up to about 15th or latest the 16th Century AD.

Region that is called Afghanistan is actually part of Khorasan of the old. During the Sassanid & early Islamic period all the area from Nishapur up to the Amu Darya was called Khorasan. Western most cities being Nisahpur & Mashhad and eastern most being Balkh. Northern most city was Merv and south extended down to the Makran coast. Sassanid province of Khorasan included Bukhara and parts of Sind as well.

Abu Muslim Khorasani who led the rebellion against the Umayyad dynasty was based at Merv (Today in Turkmenistan next to the town called Mary) this was certainly not “Afghanistan”.

The area was under the Abbasids until the 9th Century. Tahirids, the first independent Iranian kingdom since the Arab invasion, began in 821 AD. All subsequent dynasties such as Samanids, Ghaznavids, Suljuqis, Ghurids, Khwarizmis and the Mongols never called the region Afghanistan. Afghanistan came into being when Ahmed Shah Abdali, following the assassination of Nader Shan Afshar, assumed power in 1747 AD.

Based on the above it is clear that Medieval Afghanistan did not extend up to Sukkur & Sind. However it is beyond doubt that the Durrani Empire, established by the peerless Ahmed Shah, at its peak included all of present day Pakistan including Kashmir/QUOTE]

Nothing much to add, incorrect and misleading title.
Medieval Afghanistan, dude really? Medieval India, or Medieval China, funny thoughts...

Nothing much to add, incorrect and misleading title.
Medieval Afghanistan, dude really? Medieval India, or Medieval China, funny thoughts...

 

[WebMaster]

I have opened the thread in case some sensible discussions come out of it.

Regards

 

[Tergon18]

Lol, I think all those Afghan kids need to update their maps of Loy Afghanistan made on MS Paint

 

[Braith]

Isn't Afghan/Pashtun history the topic at hand. If not then what did you aim to discuss on this thread about Medieval Afghanistan.

If the topic is orange then dont bring apples into it,. You have obviously not clicked on the link and read the article. Click it, read and examine all the five references from the books. Then post your comment/feedback in relevance to the content of the article.

Roh (Medieval Afghanistan)