Maneuver Warfare - Lessons Learnt from Manstein, Rommel & Guderian

[Armchair]

There are a lot of lessons to be learnt from history. None more so than how Germany revolutionized warfare and created the very basis for modern day combat with their maneuver warfare. From 1939 to today, we see this. As recently as Gulf War, german tactics were used to defeat and overwhelm the enemy in a manner that left the world gaping.

This thread is to discuss the lessons learned from these battles. The strategies, tactics, operational philosophies, the work ethics, the military culture, the processes and methods of decision making and execution.

I've started this thread for the purpose of learning and would be most grateful if @PanzerKiel @Signalian @Gryphon and others professionals would participate and create a nice discussion over a virtual cup of tea.

To start off, I summarize here the following by a quote from Quoro:

Manstein was a true genius and a very un-German one at that. The Prussians had a reputation for always favoring the direct approach. Manstein broke the mold by mastering the indirect approach, one that really suited the German position more as Germany was the strategic underdog for the entirety of the war. The brilliance of the indirect approach shines through in all of his major campaigns where he had the initiative:

• Battle of France 1940 with the "sickle cut". He baited the Anglo-French forces into the Low Countries and then surrounded them by driving another Panzer army through the Ardennes. This is a classic envelopment by inferior numbers move worthy of the likes of Hannibal and Alexander.
• Siege of Sevastopol 1942 with his masterful use of air, land and sea assets to overwhelm the fortress with minimal losses. The Soviets were caught off guard by the amphibious landings, something they really weren't prepared for.
• Third Battle of Kharkov 1943 with the "backhand punch" against the Soviet spearhead. This is another classic "what the enemy least expects" move where Manstein deliberately let the Soviet spearheads overrun their supply lines, lose cohesion before counterattacking and destroying the spearhead.
• Battle of Kursk 1943: Manstein strongly pushed for an immediate pincer offensive while the Soviets were still recovering from Kharkov. Most of OKH supported Manstein's proposal, but Hitler did not in an uncharacteristic bit of hesitation. Today, most experts agree that an immediate offensive at Kursk would have caught the Soviets with the pants down and resulted in a major German victory.

Manstein understood the Soviets better than any of Hitlers generals. He knew that the Soviet generals were politically forced to commit to almost continuous offensives against the German lines wherever there was a perceived weakness.

He thus reasoned that the best way to defeat the Red Army was to trap it, allow it to attack itself in prepared pockets where it can be cut off and annihilated in encirclement battles. Hitler hated the idea because it meant giving up land, something he couldn't fathom. This difference of opinion led to Manstein's dismissal and thereafter the Germans wouldn't win a single battle on the Eastern Front.

https://www.quora.com/Who-was-a-better-general-Von-Manstein-Rommel-or-Guderian

 

[PanzerKiel]

There are a lot of lessons to be learnt from history. None more so than how Germany revolutionized warfare and created the very basis for modern day combat with their maneuver warfare. From 1939 to today, we see this. As recently as Gulf War, german tactics were used to defeat and overwhelm the enemy in a manner that left the world gaping.

This thread is to discuss the lessons learned from these battles. The strategies, tactics, operational philosophies, the work ethics, the military culture, the processes and methods of decision making and execution.

I've started this thread for the purpose of learning and would be most grateful if @PanzerKiel @Signalian @Gryphon and others professionals would participate and create a nice discussion over a virtual cup of tea.

To start off, I summarize here the following by a quote from Quoro:




https://www.quora.com/Who-was-a-better-general-Von-Manstein-Rommel-or-Guderian

Some additional achievements of Manstein which are otherwise underrated.....

Planning for polish campaign being COS of von Rundstedt..

An all important wargame before the French campaignfo May 1940....more of it later if we discuss it...

As commander of 56 Panzer Corps in Barbarossa, his first objectives were capturing intact couple of bridges 200 miles deep in Soviet territory, which were already wired for demolition.....their capture ensure continuation of advance of Army Group North towards Leningrad

Defeat of Soviet amphibious operation at Kerch, Crimea

The unsuccessful counter offensive, which made serious gains, to relieve 6th Army at Stalingrad

His operational handling during Battle of Kursk, whereby he was able to breakthrough 40 miles of Soviet heavy defenses...

German successful counter offensive which managed to wipe out 4 Soviet Corps after Kiev was captured

Rescue of 1st Panzer Army after it was encircled in 1944.

There are a lot of lessons to be learnt from history. None more so than how Germany revolutionized warfare and created the very basis for modern day combat with their maneuver warfare. From 1939 to today, we see this. As recently as Gulf War, german tactics were used to defeat and overwhelm the enemy in a manner that left the world gaping.

This thread is to discuss the lessons learned from these battles. The strategies, tactics, operational philosophies, the work ethics, the military culture, the processes and methods of decision making and execution.

I've started this thread for the purpose of learning and would be most grateful if @PanzerKiel @Signalian @Gryphon and others professionals would participate and create a nice discussion over a virtual cup of tea.

To start off, I summarize here the following by a quote from Quoro:




https://www.quora.com/Who-was-a-better-general-Von-Manstein-Rommel-or-Guderian

The personalities of Manstein, Guderian and Rommel....three of hundreds of military personalities for which i have more than 20 years and hundreds of books as part of my continuous research...

 

[Armchair]

Some additional achievements of Manstein which are otherwise underrated.....

Planning for polish campaign being COS of von Rundstedt..

An all important wargame before the French campaignfo May 1940....more of it later if we discuss it...

As commander of 56 Panzer Corps in Barbarossa, his first objectives were capturing intact couple of bridges 200 miles deep in Soviet territory, which were already wired for demolition.....their capture ensure continuation of advance of Army Group North towards Leningrad

Defeat of Soviet amphibious operation at Kerch, Crimea

The unsuccessful counter offensive, which made serious gains, to relieve 6th Army at Stalingrad

His operational handling during Battle of Kursk, whereby he was able to breakthrough 40 miles of Soviet heavy defenses...

German successful counter offensive which managed to wipe out 4 Soviet Corps after Kiev was captured

Rescue of 1st Panzer Army after it was encircled in 1944.



The personalities of Manstein, Guderian and Rommel....three of hundreds of military personalities for which i have more than 20 years and hundreds of books as part of my continuous research...

Wow that's a lot of research! here is one book you may not have read "Sword of Allah Khalid bin Walid". Very interesting maneuver warfare.

Manstein to me is more like a Mongol general. he loves the false retreating counter stroke. And he loves to encircle and destroy rather than let the enemy escape.

Here is Manstein's famous "Miracle":

Battle of Crimea:

Here Manstein gets into a hard attrition fight in very limited and congested terrain. Even here he manages to pull off maneuver warfare.

 

[PanzerKiel]

here is one book you may not have read "Sword of Allah Khalid bin Walid".

soch hai aap ki.

Battle of Crimea:

Here Manstein gets into a hard attrition fight in very limited and congested terrain. Even here he manages to pull off maneuver warfare.

Try reading about Sponeck affair.

Manstein to me is more like a Mongol general. he loves the false retreating counter stroke. And he loves to encircle and destroy rather than let the enemy escape.

Yeh zulm na karein...

He practiced and excelled at what we call mobile defense, letting the enemy to attack, let him stretch itself, and then strike at the opportune moment.....

Mobile defence was the only way out for the Germans since they were less in strength, much less for a proper Area Defence.

@Armchair

There, this book is LOST VICTORIES...written by Manstein himself, i read it for the first time more than a decade ago.....try reading it.

 

[Armchair]

okay let me take a read : )

soch hai aap ki.



Try reading about Sponeck affair.



Yeh zulm na karein...

He practiced and excelled at what we call mobile defense, letting the enemy to attack, let him stretch itself, and then strike at the opportune moment.....

Mobile defence was the only way out for the Germans since they were less in strength, much less for a proper Area Defence.

@Armchair

There, this book is LOST VICTORIES...written by Manstein himself, i read it for the first time more than a decade ago.....try reading it.

 

[Armchair]

I've waded through the book and am at the Polish Order of Battle... it seems their army was very large but using somewhat outdated equipment. Also, since they weren't appropriately industrialized (just like Pakistan), they were using foreign equipment and could not arm properly reserve regiments raised.

Their army looks a lot like Pakistan Army doesn't it?! @PanzerKiel

What would you have done differently if you were in charge of Polish forces?

Certainly the mistake of trying to hold everything is fatal against maneuver warfare. This isn't a mistake Pakistan is doing - the strategy seems to be to allow the Indians to get in the Thar desert for a barbeque, then load the springs for a counter stroke.

I constantly wonder how one can talk about modern warfare, and how an army like Pakistan army can discuss all these ideas and not realize it has no mass production ability of any weapon system other than small arms!

Going forward, the size of the armies get bigger and bigger and bigger. Relatively, the PA and IA are like porcelain dolls. Little toys that will smack each other for 5 minutes and then collapse from exhaustion as they run out of ammo, fuel, and a complete inability to replace lost equipment by mass producing their own.

 

[PanzerKiel]

What would you have done differently if you were in charge of Polish forces?

What the Greek did to Italian Army.

Certainly the mistake of trying to hold everything is fatal against maneuver warfare.

Se, you have already started arriving at the right lessons for mobile warfare.......objective of this thread is being achieved then.

 

[Armchair]

What the Greek did to Italian Army.

What was that?

 

[PanzerKiel]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Italian_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Italian_War

@Armchair
Lets see what you make out of it...

in order to preserve the quality of this thread, we'll stick to lessons and discussions related to them....nothing else..

 

[Armchair]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Italian_War



@Armchair
Lets see what you make out of it...

in order to preserve the quality of this thread, we'll stick to lessons and discussions related to them....nothing else..

Okay I am reading through it will get back to you when I am done. Preliminary thoughts, the terrain and lack of vectors seem very different from the Polish open terrain and multiple vectors for the Germans.

Italian troops quality much lower, equipment quality much less. They were not doing a blitz. You'd be facing a German blitz my friend, in open terrain coming from virtually any direction... what would you do... with all those Polish infantry divisions and horse bound cavalry... how would you stop the panzers....

Where would you form the defensive line - at the beginning the Poles didn't know where the German offensive would come from. It ended up coming from four vectors with two objectives.

With most of the Greek army on the Albanian border, Operation Marita began through Bulgaria on 6 April, which created a second front. Greece had received a small reinforcement from British forces based in Egypt in anticipation of the German attack, but no more help was sent after the invasion. The Greek army was outnumbered; the Bulgarian defensive line did not receive adequate troop reinforcements and was quickly overrun. The Germans outflanked the immobile Greek forces on the Albanian border, forcing the surrender of the Eastern Macedonia Field Army section in only four days. The British Empire forces began a retreat. For several days Allied troops contained the German advance on the Thermopylae position, allowing ships to be prepared to evacuate the British force. The Germans reached Athens on 27 April and the southern shore on 30 April, capturing 7,000 British troops. The conquest of Greece was completed with the capture of Crete a month later and Greece was occupied by the military forces of Germany, Italy, and Bulgaria until late 1944

 

[Signalian]

The overlooked part

 

[Armchair]

The overlooked part

Interesting, makes one wonder how the world would have been if the Germans had mastered mass production and had a German equivalent to the US Jeep and a 1 ton truck, mass produced.

 

[_NOBODY_]

@PanzerKiel
Hi,
Can you recommend any military books?

 

[PanzerKiel]

@PanzerKiel
Hi,
Can you recommend any military books?

Lots of...

 

[Armchair]

@PanzerKiel I think the attack on France could have succeeded even without Manstein's plan. The initial successful assault through Netherlands / Belgium proves this. Had the second army group that attacked the Ardenes been used there, the collapse would have been far more comprehensive and decisive. Then they could have gone for a right hook, cutting off the allies from the Sea, thus avoiding what happened at Dunkirk. Pressed against the Swiss border, this would have been successful anyways.

However, I do like how Manstein emphasizes on surprise, something I really approve of!