Mahmud Ghaznavi, the Afghan-Pak Sultan

[Hamza913]

Pakistanis are even bankrupt of heroes...they have to hide behind afghan king..when attacked and made them slaves..no where in the world they honour the attackers...any way name a missile on chengiz khan too....

Are you an idiot or something? Did you even read my posts?

He had many people from Pakistan working in his military, influenced our culture greatly, gave us Islam (which is the reason our nation exists in the first place), made Lahore one of the greatest cities in the world, and many people migrated to Pakistan during his rule, intermarrying with the local population. Many of us are (although rather minimally) the descendants of people who migrated to the region during these Islamic conquests.

We have many heroes from Pakistan itself, some of which also beat the crap out of Hindustan, e.g Ahmed Shah Abdali (he was a Pashtun from Multan), Sikander Shah Mir (a Gujjar from Kashmir), Mir Malagh Khan (a Baluchi), Hyder Ali (his father was Punjabi), etc.

Anyway, we are Muslim first, our heroes should be based primarily on who was good for Islam and Muslims.

According to most history books Abdali was most likely born in Herat. Even if he wasn't then his father was from Kandahar, mother from Herat, the capital of his empire was Kandahar (and after his death Kabul) and formal language spoken to his army and at home was Dari. Plus he was an ethnic Pashtun who were more commonly known as Afghans back in the days.

If anything then Abdali is the only dynasty that was truly Afghan in the past, current and actual sense

He was most probably born in Multan as his maternal family lived there during the time of his birth and he was raised there.

 

[Ray-of-Hope]

Are you an idiot or something? Did you even read my posts?

He had many people from Pakistan working in his military, influenced our culture greatly, gave us Islam (which is the reason our nation exists in the first place), made Lahore one of the greatest cities in the world, and many people migrated to Pakistan during his rule, intermarrying with the local population. Many of us are (although rather minimally) the descendants of people who migrated to the region during these Islamic conquests.

We have many heroes from Pakistan itself, some of which also beat the crap out of Hindustan, e.g Ahmed Shah Abdali (he was a Pashtun from Multan), Sikander Shah Mir (a Gujjar from Kashmir), Mir Malagh Khan (a Baluchi), Hyder Ali (his father was Punjabi), etc.

Anyway, we are Muslim first, our heroes should be based primarily on who was good for Islam and Muslims.



He was most probably born in Multan as his maternal family lived there during the time of his birth and he was raised there.

The Iranian and Azerbaijan textbooks have his place of birth noted down as Herat and Abdali history started with the breakaway of major Persian areas: Iran, Tajikistan and northern Afghanistan. That's where he formed a small number of army men, which further expanded in Kandahar. He was of the Popalzai clan from a notable family in Kandahar. There's a reason why he choose Kandahar as the capital of his empire

It is said that his family briefly fled to Multan due to political turmoil but not many sources support his place of birth being Multan. Even if Multan was his place of birth that's not where his maternal and paternal lineage were from. Places like Kandahar, Herat and Kabul have recorded his activity and legacy all over the cities

 

[AfrazulMandal]

We have many heroes from Pakistan itself, some of which also beat the crap out of Hindustan, e.g Ahmed Shah Abdali (he was a Pashtun from Multan), Sikander Shah Mir (a Gujjar from Kashmir), Mir Malagh Khan (a Baluchi), Hyder Ali (his father was Punjabi), etc.

Anyway, we are Muslim first, our heroes should be based primarily on who was good for Islam and Muslims.

Crap out of primarily Hindus. It is politically incorrect, I admit. Also I don't want to offend the few genuinely humane Hindus. But we have our heroes and they theirs. And these are polar opposites of each other.

 

[Hamza913]

Crap out of primarily Hindus. It is politically incorrect, I admit. Also I don't want to offend the few genuinely humane Hindus. But we have our heroes and they theirs. And these are polar opposites of each other.

Yes, that is true.

He also had mercenaries from Hindustan work in his army too (albeit in small numbers). Also, again, many Muslims in Hindustan are descended from people who migrated to the region during the Islamic conquests (just like Muslims in Afghanistan and Pakistan), and don't let anyone else tell you otherwise:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3163234

"The study showed that the Muslim Gujjars differ significantly from their counterpart, the Hindu Gujjars"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19809480

"Overall, our results support a model according to which the spread of Islam in India was predominantly cultural conversion associated with minor but still detectable levels of gene flow from outside, primarily from Iran and Central Asia"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20067368

"we observed a certain degree of genetic contribution from Iran to both (Sunni and Shia) Muslim populations"

https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2009168

"The average contribution of haplogroups of West Eurasian origin to Indian Muslims was 18%, which is not significantly higher than the value observed in non-Muslim populations (14%). In contrast, Iranian Shia Muslims exhibit a high frequency (54%) of West Eurasian lineages. It is interesting that the sub-Saharan African- and Arabian-specific L0a2a2 and R01 lineages were found only in Dawoodi Bohras (TN and GUJ), whereas these lineages were generally absent in Indian non-Muslims, although a related L0a2a2 lineage has been detected previously among the Sindhi population of Pakistan "

One can also clearly notice that the more north-west the South Asian Muslim population is, the more it differentiates from it's non Muslim counterparts, so it's highly probable that the trend would continue into Pakistan.

 

[AfrazulMandal]

Yes, that is true.

He also had mercenaries from Hindustan work in his army too (albeit in small numbers). Also, again, many Muslims in Hindustan are descended from people who migrated to the region during the Islamic conquests (just like Muslims in Afghanistan and Pakistan), and don't let anyone else tell you otherwise:

"The average contribution of haplogroups of West Eurasian origin to Indian Muslims was 18%, which is not significantly higher than the value observed in non-Muslim populations (14%). In contrast, Iranian Shia Muslims exhibit a high frequency (54%) of West Eurasian lineages. It is interesting that the sub-Saharan African- and Arabian-specific L0a2a2 and R01 lineages were found only in Dawoodi Bohras (TN and GUJ), whereas these lineages were generally absent in Indian non-Muslims, although a related L0a2a2 lineage has been detected previously among the Sindhi population of Pakistan "

That is obvious. Even Bengali Muslims share some foreign ancestry. Hindus never married outside their local ethnicity. For us being Muslim was enough. Hence the mixing.

 

[Hamza913]

That is obvious. Even Bengali Muslims share some foreign ancestry. Hindus never married outside their local ethnicity. For us being Muslim was enough. Hence the mixing.

Interestingly, Bengali Muslims have a higher amount of Eurasian DNA than non Muslims from northern Hindustan, which does suggest some affinity with the Islamic conquerors as there is no other way to explain this.

Bengalis were also some of the first people of the region to embrace Islam, as Arabs came to the region for trading purposes during the time of Rasulullah (Peace Be Upon Him), bringing Islam with them.

The Iranian and Azerbaijan textbooks have his place of birth noted down as Herat and Abdali history started with the breakaway of major Persian areas: Iran, Tajikistan and northern Afghanistan. That's where he formed a small number of army men, which further expanded in Kandahar. He was of the Popalzai clan from a notable family in Kandahar. There's a reason why he choose Kandahar as the capital of his empire

It is said that his family briefly fled to Multan due to political turmoil but not many sources support his place of birth being Multan. Even if Multan was his place of birth that's not where his maternal and paternal lineage were from. Places like Kandahar, Herat and Kabul have recorded his activity and legacy all over the cities

Yes, I agree his birthplace is disputed, but I lean more towards him being born in Multan as his maternal family lived there at the time of his birth, and he was raised there.

Whether he was born in Afghanistan or Pakistan is irrelevant, he is important to both nations as he was a Pashtun, which is a major ethnic group in both Pakistan and Afghanistan. The Durranis in particular also also very common in Afghanistan and Pakistan (the head of the ISI was once a Durrani). His empire also had many Baluchis fight in his army, which again, are a fairly significantly sized ethnic group in both Pakistan and Afghanistan. The borders of modern day Afghanistan and Pakistan are also very similar to those of his empire.

 

[Ray-of-Hope]

Interestingly, Bengali Muslims have a higher amount of Eurasian DNA than non Muslims from northern Hindustan, which does suggest some affinity with the Islamic conquerors as there is no other way to explain this.

Bengalis were also some of the first people of the region to embrace Islam, as Arabs came to the region for trading purposes during the time of Rasulullah (Peace Be Upon Him), bringing Islam with them.



Yes, I agree his birthplace is disputed, but I lean more towards him being born in Multan as his maternal family lived there at the time of his birth, and he was raised there.

Whether he was born in Afghanistan or Pakistan is irrelevant, he is important to both nations as he was a Pashtun, which is a major ethnic group in both Pakistan and Afghanistan. The Durranis in particular also also very common in Afghanistan and Pakistan (the head of the ISI was once a Durrani). His empire also had many Baluchis fight in his army, which again, are a fairly significantly sized ethnic group in both Pakistan and Afghanistan. The borders of modern day Afghanistan and Pakistan are also very similar to those of his empire.

It's uncertain when Abdali's family moved to Multan and Abdali was born when his father was still governor of Herat, which makes his place of birth all the more clearer

Pashtun history on both sides of the border were one, and hencewhy Pak-Afghan history is so heavily intermingled. The Pashtun history isn't as strongly documented in Pakistani history books as it is in Afghan books which unfortunately leads to those parts being cut off from Pakistani history to a certain point.

I was just pointing out that out of those Islamic empires from current day Afghanistan, only the Durrani empire can be classified as an Afghan empire in historic, ethnic and geographic sense because of Abdali's background and lineage

 

[BATMAN]

What's there to be great about him or what he did,unless you think the religion he followed and his god will be proud of him disrespecting others faith.

Stop believing in history written by RSS.

 

[Hamza913]

It's uncertain when Abdali's family moved to Multan and Abdali was born when his father was still governor of Herat, which makes his place of birth all the more clearer

Pashtun history on both sides of the border were one, and hencewhy Pak-Afghan history is so heavily intermingled. The Pashtun history isn't as strongly documented in Pakistani history books as it is in Afghan books which unfortunately leads to those parts being cut off from Pakistani history to a certain point.

I was just pointing out that out of those Islamic empires from current day Afghanistan, only the Durrani empire can be classified as an Afghan empire in historic, ethnic and geographic sense because of Abdali's background and lineage

His father is irrelevant, it's his mother that is most important since she would have been the one that gave birth to him. She was in Multan at the time, and he we also know that Abdalis father did visit her around the same time he would have been born.

Pakistani history is more focused on the Islamic history of South Asia, mainly because that is the one thing we all agree on in terms of who we admire and who we dislike, as well as the fact that our very nation exists purely because of these Islamic conquests. It also helps that many Pakistanis are vigorously proud Muslims.

There is a difference between Afghan and Pashtun empires. Afghan empires would be empires based around Afghanistan, Pashtun empires would be empires based around Pashtuns as an ethnic group. Don't confuse the two as they don't always overlap, e.g the Sur Empire was a Pashtun but not an Afghan empire.

 

[newb3e]

off topic but can someone suggest a good book on Muslim generals or conquests

 

[Hamza913]

off topic but can someone suggest a good book on Muslim generals or conquests

Plenty of Tareekhs out there which you can even get for free as PDF's online.

The internet is a very good source, you can find plenty of information out there. Wikipedia is very nice because it provides citations which you can check out for yourself. Lectures given by certified historians are also a good source, you can find them on YouTube.

 

[newb3e]

Plenty of Tareekhs out there which you can even get for free as PDF's online.

The internet is a very good source, you can find plenty of information out there. Wikipedia is very nice because it provides citations which you can check out for yourself. Lectures given by certified historians are also a good source, you can find them on YouTube.

issue is there are so many unauthentic sources that i normally stay away from google or youtube when it comes to history or religion.

anything authentic you can suggest?

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

Pakistanis are even bankrupt of heroes...they have to hide behind afghan king..when attacked and made them slaves..no where in the world they honour the attackers...any way name a missile on chengiz khan too....

You guys actually love to exaggerate the negtaive aspect of Muslim rulers to paint them entirely villain . I admit that they were not infallible saints either who never commited any crimes . Truth is somehwere in the middle because history is very much bias because different historians have personal bias towards historical events which gets reflected in their writings. I personally dont glorify previous past rulers and invaders especially those who were involved in pludering and looting and just came for wealth and Jihad was convenient excuse back then just like taliban misusing word jihadtoday for their political gains but read also what modern historians such as romila thapar and raichard eaton has to say about religious policies of Mahmud Ghaznvi toards Hindus

Thapar writes:

" Of the mercenaries, not an insubstantial number were Indians and, presumably, Hindus. Indian soldiers under their commander, referred to as Suvendhary, remained loyal to Mahmud. They had their own commander, the sipasalar-i-Hinduwan, lived in their own quarter in Ghazni and continued with their religion. When the Turkish commander of the troops rebelled, the command was given to a Hindu, Tilak, and he is commended for his loyalty. Complaints are made about the severity with which Muslims and Christians were killed by Indian troops fighting for Mahmud in Seistan"


Hindu-India or Muslim-Pakistan identity did not existed in the past. You should realize that what differentiate Pakistan from India is religious identity and they boht are enemies and went against each others in many wars because of many conflicts . Now when you call your missile as prithvi based on Pritivraj chuhan then what you expect your worst enemy to do ? They will be going to name their missile as Gauri who defeated prithvi and establsihed delhi sultanate so its actually symbolic.

Ghazni witout doubt was very successful as a conqueror and a great General who hardly ever lost a battle even though had some unsuccessful campaigns .Chenghaiz khan is also hero for some(Mongols ) and villain for others( Chinese and Muslims) but depend on which side you are on

 

[Ray-of-Hope]

His father is irrelevant, it's his mother that is most important since she would have been the one that gave birth to him. She was in Multan at the time, and he we also know that Abdalis father did visit her around the same time he would have been born.

Pakistani history is more focused on the Islamic history of South Asia, mainly because that is the one thing we all agree on in terms of who we admire and who we dislike, as well as the fact that our very nation exists purely because of these Islamic conquests. It also helps that many Pakistanis are vigorously proud Muslims.

There is a difference between Afghan and Pashtun empires. Afghan empires would be empires based around Afghanistan, Pashtun empires would be empires based around Pashtuns as an ethnic group. Don't confuse the two as they don't always overlap, e.g the Sur Empire was a Pashtun but not an Afghan empire.

If you're into history books then try skipping through two Iranian history books, "Iran, Empire of the Mind" and "The Turban for the Crown". The first book is very detailed about Nader Shah's most trusted man, who happened to be Ahmad Shah Abdali and it briefly speaks of Abdali's family's journey between Kirman (in current day Iran) and Harat/Herav (as it was formerly known as)

The latter just briefly speaks of Nader Shah's conquest of Kandahar and Abdali's role in gaining control over his paternal hometown, and his birth place (which in the book is mentioned as Herat). Surprisingly Multan is nowhere mentioned in either of the books

The Sur were known as ethnic Afghans. Again "Iran, Empire of the Mind" refers them as that. At the time there was no Afghanistan, there was Khorasan and before that Ariana. Ghaznawid was a Persianised Turkic empire, Ghorid were Persian empire, Hotak and Abdali were Pashtun empires. They originated from present day Afghanistan but they were empires of particular ethnic group, not within any border or nationality

off topic but can someone suggest a good book on Muslim generals or conquests

Iran, Empire of the Mind is a good read. Even Persian book Shahnameh gives a brief introduction into various Islamic empires throughout Central Asia, South Asia and Middle East.

Alternatively if you type name of any Islamic conquest you want to search about on google, you might find some good reads on books.google which many times provides links to some authentic books

 

[Hamza913]

issue is there are so many unauthentic sources that i normally stay away from google or youtube when it comes to history or religion.

anything authentic you can suggest?

Wikipedia is good provided the claims are backed up by proper citations (some are, some aren't). Work done by BBC (e.g their website and documentaries) are also reliable. Zaid Hamid also has some very good lectures on Islamic conquerors. Crash Course History and Caspian Report on YouTube also have some videos on the topic, again, generally reliable and interesting. Ollie Bye is another YouTube channel with maps that detail the expansion of many Muslim empires throughout their lifetime, I would also recommend the channel Kings and Generals, and Baz Battles, which go into detail about the actual battles that took place during the Islamic conquests.

Generally speaking, it's good to read up multiple sources on the same topic, take the material that overlaps (without being a complete copy-paste) and appears to fit in with the history as most probably factual.

If you're into history books then try skipping through two Iranian history books, "Iran, Empire of the Mind" and "The Turban for the Crown". The first book is very detailed about Nader Shah's most trusted man, who happened to be Ahmad Shah Abdali and it briefly speaks of Abdali's family's journey between Kirman (in current day Iran) and Harat/Herav (as it was formerly known as)

The latter just briefly speaks of Nader Shah's conquest of Kandahar and Abdali's role in gaining control over his paternal hometown, and his birth place (which in the book is mentioned as Herat). Surprisingly Multan is nowhere mentioned in either of the books

The Sur were known as ethnic Afghans. Again "Iran, Empire of the Mind" refers them as that. At the time there was no Afghanistan, there was Khorasan and before that Ariana. Ghaznawid was a Persianised Turkic empire, Ghorid were Persian empire, Hotak and Abdali were Pashtun empires. They originated from present day Afghanistan but they were empires of particular ethnic group, not within any border or nationality


Iran, Empire of the Mind is a good read. Even Persian book Shahnameh gives a brief introduction into various Islamic empires throughout Central Asia, South Asia and Middle East.

Alternatively if you type name of any Islamic conquest you want to search about on google, you might find some good reads on books.google which many times provides links to some authentic books

Like I said, Abdalis birthplace is disputed. It's best to leave it at that.

Pashtuns were typically referred to as Afghans, as that was the historical name for them. Even KPK and FATA used to be called Afghania (that's what the A in Pakistan stands for).