Liquid Fuel Ramjet (LFRJ) engine based DRDO's new missile project, the Supersonic Target (STAR).to be developed into Anti-AWACS AAM

[SQ8]

To be honest, I don't like what is happening to the Tejas. It smells like specification creep. It should have been an easy to produce, light, cheap, quickly adaptable by young pilots entering service, and able to do simple interception, point interception at that, without the weakness of the predecessor MiG21 that relied so heavily on ground control. Its AESA radar is great, a good step forward; if it has, in addition, a couple - not more - of good air-to-air missiles, for WVR and BVR use respectively, it should be left alone to do that and nothing more.

Combat Air Patrol is precisely what it should be doing. Giving it other tasks - like using the MiG21, a classic point interceptor, for ground attack - will completely obfuscate its main objective, to keep enemy aircraft far from the assets under guard.

Perhaps I don't understand very well, but shaping this Maruti 800 among fighters as an AWACS killer is a big mistake.

The tactics described are probably capable of improvement. The SU30 should be the candidate AWACS killer.


Sounds good.

Our chief of the Air Force (in the war game) used it as an escort, and it worked well, although the Tejas is a short-legged plane (like its predecessor. the MiG21).

Let's try it.

Especially when there are other more capable assets available. The MkI is ideal for this sort of weapon because its got a huge dish size and power to match the range.

A fews MKI equipped with 6 of these could orbit 50-80km within Indian airspace and just keep ripple firing to push PAF AEW and escorts out of the picture or even kill some.

But when this happens - and the assumption in the scenario is that somehow it is a surprise attack will the Pakistani AD sit quietly?

This is a first strike cover and then AD weapon once a conflict kicks off.

The Tejas could escort much like the Bison did blending in but it’s short legs mean it isn’t going very far and at best will help punch through before needing to RTB.

Although, with the future ADGE of both countries such adventures are likely to be done once a considerable number of unmanned aircraft paired with hundred upon hundreds of ARMs have been expended already to degrade AD.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Especially when there are other more capable assets available. The MkI is ideal for this sort of weapon because its got a huge dish size and power to match the range.

A fews MKI equipped with 6 of these could orbit 50-80km within Indian airspace and just keep ripple firing to push PAF AEW and escorts out of the picture or even kill some.

Exactly.

I take @Paro_Peagus' point about the Tejas being the smallest vehicle, and if they can fit even two devices to it, the SU30 will practically be able to carry a truck-load, and, as you underlined, stand off at a 200 kms distance and keep firing these, exhausting them, going back to reload and repeating the exercise.

However, what is happening in the Ukraine suggests a rather different turn of the kaleidoscope.

But when this happens - and the assumption in the scenario is that somehow it is a surprise attack will the Pakistani AD sit quietly?

This is a first strike cover and then AD weapon once a conflict kicks off.

Indeed, it is very clear that Pakistani AD will fight ferociously; even their surface-to-surface inventory is unpleasant to an Indian planner. Definitely after some medium to heavy casualties in the first few hours, the Pakistani side will fight back ferociously.

Here Indian battle planning has to choose between two alternatives - to attack airborne assets, or to attack sensor concentrations using ARMs. It seems at first blush that both cannot be done to the extent and volume that India would wish for.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The Tejas could escort much like the Bison did blending in but it’s short legs mean it isn’t going very far and at best will help punch through before needing to RTB.

Both aircraft, the MiG and the Tejas, are/were short-legged; given the design parameters under which the Tejas team was working, they sacrificed distance for weight. Fair enough, but then for effective deployment, they are left with point interception and with CAP over own assets. No strikes, no attacks, no ground attack (I hope and pray that this should not happen; some genius is capable of wishing this onto that most unsuitable platform, just as the MiG 21 was forced to take on a ground attack role).

Punch through? In the simulation, @meghdut tried that, and the results were surprisingly favourable (in terms of casualty rate), but it is not the task that this aircraft was designed for.

 

[Tornado23]

Drones munitions out range MANPADs

Cant really say that.

It depends on the battlefield itself and how far the drone is from its target and where the MANPAD is from the target. Say for example, a UCAV wants to conduct a strike on the enemies logistics or a FOB, the MANPAD could be stationed at a point where it could intercept the drone but the drone cannot hit its target, if you understand what im saying?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Although, with the future ADGE of both countries such adventures are likely to be done once a considerable number of unmanned aircraft paired with hundred upon hundreds of ARMs have been expended already to degrade AD.

This is the crux.

There will be a thick array of AD weapons, layered so that it is impossible to knock these out in totality. There will be lots of ARM required, and efficiency of their use is to be seen; it is not clear that they will not be decoyed by radio and electronic signal emitters that have no missiles to direct. Most delivery will be through drones. The side with the greater number of ARMs, mounted on drones will be the side that has the upper hand at the early stages.

Even after a huge attack, or several waves of attacks, much of the AD system will remain, to target and harass Indian missions.

 

[Paro_Peagus]

This is the crux.

There will be a thick array of AD weapons, layered so that it is impossible to knock these out in totality. There will be lots of ARM required, and efficiency of their use is to be seen; it is not clear that they will not be decoyed by radio and electronic signal emitters that have no missiles to direct. Most delivery will be through drones. The side with the greater number of ARMs, mounted on drones will be the side that has the upper hand at the early stages.

Even after a huge attack, or several waves of attacks, much of the AD system will remain, to target and harass Indian missions.

SAR satellites can be used to knockout sams ahead of strike packages using standoff ammunition. Used in balakot and IAF is trained regularly in mission planning. RISAT and EOS series are specifically designed with this in mind. Actually, I should have a pic of pak radar found by an Indian satellite, posted it on discord a few years ago.

Even you can, using publicly available data if you have some free cash on hand. https://hackaday.com/2022/03/02/you-can-find-military-radars-on-publicly-available-satellite-data/

Also, Indian enhancements on Rafales can be used to neutralize enemy radars. the extra improvements paid has one fo these.

Below screenshot is a tactic somewhat used 3 decades ago, still valid today

@disclaimer: credit to the writer on Reddit. I am not the owner of the above comment. but the above historic fact is verified (by me)


And no Drones likely won't be used as their survival is limited in contested airspace. take Ukraine and Russia for example. initially, the turkish drones were doing good on advancing Russian forces. In fact, there was way too much propaganda on their usefulness. The minute Russia started building air defense zones in the occupied areas Ukraine started losing drones like flies. India Pak airspace would already have overlapping ADs, drones won't survive even in the initial hrs. ex - 3 Pak drones were shot down days before & after balakot trying to do a shallow incursion.

it played out in the wargaming because it was a computer simulation.

 

[Joe Shearer]

SAR satellites can be used to knockout sams ahead of strike packages using standoff ammunition. Used in balakot and IAF is trained regularly in mission planning. RISAT and EOS series are specifically designed with this in mind. Actually, I should have a pic of pak radar found by an Indian satellite, posted it on discord a few years ago.

Even you can, using publicly available data if you have some free cash on hand. https://hackaday.com/2022/03/02/you-can-find-military-radars-on-publicly-available-satellite-data/

Also, Indian enhancements on Rafales can be used to neutralize enemy radars. the extra improvements paid has one fo these.

I got this part, to some extent because of previous happenings that are not for public discussion. However, getting this to work in real time, as you assert, is good to hear, but was not available at the last time this was encountered (in 2000). I am out of date.

I am sorry, I didn't get this at all:

Below screenshot is a tactic somewhat used 3 decades ago, still valid today

 

[Paro_Peagus]

I am sorry, I didn't get this at all:

EW aircraft flying over an AD contested airspace escorting a strike package have both defensive and offensive capabilities. Jamming radars is the defensive capability that everyone knows and is not even a secret, the real capability is the offensive capability.

**let me explain in laymen's terms. a launcher has 2 types of radars one that scans 360deg for enemy aircraft and the other that tracks a target and directs the missile to the target. American used EW aircraft to emit the same frequency as the tracking radar with a higher intensity. this confused the missile thinking that the EW aircraft is the source of its tracking radars laser beam and the missile went after its launcher thinking its a decoy.
Hope you understood this.

How do beam rider missiles work?

Scott Hanson's answer: Beam riding missile guidance has a signal sent at the target. Normally radar, but laser is used as well in some systems. The missile is fired and it's initial flight path has it fly into the beam. Antennas in the tail of the missile sense the missiles position within the ...

qr.ae

 

[HydraChess]

To be honest, I don't like what is happening to the Tejas. It smells like specification creep. It should have been an easy to produce, light, cheap, quickly adaptable by young pilots entering service, and able to do simple interception, point interception at that, without the weakness of the predecessor MiG21 that relied so heavily on ground control. Its AESA radar is great, a good step forward; if it has, in addition, a couple - not more - of good air-to-air missiles, for WVR and BVR use respectively, it should be left alone to do that and nothing more.

Tejas, when initial envisoned, to the best of my knowledge was a replacement for Mig-21s. Over a period of time, due to delays, it became a science project of sorts and now it is threatening to become a Mig-29 replacement in its next avatar. Give it few more decades and damn thing will be a 747 replacement with ability to fire every missile in India's inventory and will have a towed radar array.

Someone close to the airforce told me that about 4-5 years back, the only way to get approved for funding for development was to get your project aligned with Tejas. Thats why so many things started to get strapped on to this poor plane.

Just takeout the command centers using suicide drones.

You know drone typically have a limited range. And command centres are not on border. You will need missiles but then once you use them retaliation will be much harder.

 

[HydraChess]

Especially when there are other more capable assets available. The MkI is ideal for this sort of weapon because its got a huge dish size and power to match the range.

A fews MKI equipped with 6 of these could orbit 50-80km within Indian airspace and just keep ripple firing to push PAF AEW and escorts out of the picture or even kill some.

But when this happens - and the assumption in the scenario is that somehow it is a surprise attack will the Pakistani AD sit quietly?

This is a first strike cover and then AD weapon once a conflict kicks off.

The Tejas could escort much like the Bison did blending in but it’s short legs mean it isn’t going very far and at best will help punch through before needing to RTB.

Although, with the future ADGE of both countries such adventures are likely to be done once a considerable number of unmanned aircraft paired with hundred upon hundreds of ARMs have been expended already to degrade AD.

I like the idea of using RAM-jet for longer range. This missile is sort of pale for attacking AWACS or refuelling tankers due to its limited range. That being said, it sort confirms the rumors that India is seeking to develop a Brahmos-variant ( actually a ramjet powered missile) for long range OCA. It still needs more range and ability of being guided by AWACS instead of aircraft that fired it.

Ideally, a stealthy fighter should fire it in vicinity of a refueller and get the hell out without turning on its radar and let a AWACS guide in mid-course and let seeker handle terminal phase.

Is it possible in IAF @Joe Shearer?

 

[SQ8]

SAR satellites can be used to knockout sams ahead of strike packages using standoff ammunition. Used in balakot and IAF is trained regularly in mission planning. RISAT and EOS series are specifically designed with this in mind. Actually, I should have a pic of pak radar found by an Indian satellite, posted it on discord a few years ago.

Even you can, using publicly available data if you have some free cash on hand. https://hackaday.com/2022/03/02/you-can-find-military-radars-on-publicly-available-satellite-data/

Also, Indian enhancements on Rafales can be used to neutralize enemy radars. the extra improvements paid has one fo these.

Below screenshot is a tactic somewhat used 3 decades ago, still valid today
View attachment 857569
@disclaimer: credit to the writer on Reddit. I am not the owner of the above comment. but the above historic fact is verified (by me)


And no Drones likely won't be used as their survival is limited in contested airspace. take Ukraine and Russia for example. initially, the turkish drones were doing good on advancing Russian forces. In fact, there was way too much propaganda on their usefulness. The minute Russia started building air defense zones in the occupied areas Ukraine started losing drones like flies. India Pak airspace would already have overlapping ADs, drones won't survive even in the initial hrs. ex - 3 Pak drones were shot down days before & after balakot trying to do a shallow incursion.

it played out in the wargaming because it was a computer simulation.

You can fine Radars on google earth
The remaining SAM systems and others will be taken care of by a Combo of HiSAT and other EW sats.

What is the core issue is the layering of these systems which began 5 years ago on the Pak side specifically to combat ARMs.

Computer simulations that are also used by US, UK military along with the Luftwaffe.
The same way what you are citing are paper tactics and untried.

We’re amateurish in our usage in approach but I do see some validation in what @Joe Shearer ,myself and others are playing with.

EW aircraft flying over an AD contested airspace escorting a strike package have both defensive and offensive capabilities. Jamming radars is the defensive capability that everyone knows and is not even a secret, the real capability is the offensive capability.

View attachment 857594



**let me explain in laymen's terms. a launcher has 2 types of radars one that scans 360deg for enemy aircraft and the other that tracks a target and directs the missile to the target. American used EW aircraft to emit the same frequency as the tracking radar with a higher intensity. this confused the missile thinking that the EW aircraft is the source of its tracking radars laser beam and the missile went after its launcher thinking its a decoy.
Hope you understood this.

How do beam rider missiles work?

Scott Hanson's answer: Beam riding missile guidance has a signal sent at the target. Normally radar, but laser is used as well in some systems. The missile is fired and it's initial flight path has it fly into the beam. Antennas in the tail of the missile sense the missiles position within the ...

qr.ae

That was 86, those tactics are well known.
Some of it was refined in DS and updated further in multiple Red Flags.
However, each strategy has a counter strategy which all sides work on.
I am not aware of any drones being shot down during Balakot @PanzerKiel can confirm better rather than any Indian or Pakistani enthusiast claim.

 

[Paro_Peagus]

You can fine Radars on google earth
The remaining SAM systems and others will be taken care of by a Combo of HiSAT and other EW sats.

What is the core issue is the layering of these systems which began 5 years ago on the Pak side specifically to combat ARMs.

Computer simulations that are also used by US, UK military along with the Luftwaffe.
The same way what you are citing are paper tactics and untried.

We’re amateurish in our usage in approach but I do see some validation in what @Joe Shearer ,myself and others are playing with.


That was 86, those tactics are well known.
Some of it was refined in DS and updated further in multiple Red Flags.
However, each strategy has a counter strategy which all sides work on.
I am not aware of any drones being shot down during Balakot @PanzerKiel can confirm better rather than any Indian or Pakistani enthusiast claim.

Pak drone shot down near IB in Gujarat’s Kutch: Police sources

The shooting down of the drone comes on the day IAF struck a Jaish camp in Balakot deep across the LoC dropping 1,000 pound bombs in a thickly-forested hilltop

www.hindustantimes.com

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...-on-rajasthan-border/articleshow/68262560.cms

After Balakot strike, Pakistan drone shot down near Gujarat border

Hours after IAF Surgical Strike: On hearing a loud sound around 6 am, villagers went to the spot and found the debris of the UAV, the sources said.

indianexpress.com

Pakistani Drone Shot Down In Rajasthan. Fourth Since Balakot Air Strike

A Pakistani drone was shot down by India in Rajasthan's Sri Ganganagar district on Sunday. This is the fourth time that a Pakistani drone was intercepted by India since the air strike on a terror training camp across the Line of Control in Balakot by the Indian Air Force.

www.ndtv.com

2 were shot down by spyder one was downed by Su30 the last one i dont know.

There are a whole lot of things that happened those few days, those in the know-how, know more than enough , but won't be discussed here or elsewhere. It's the case on both sides.

 

[SQ8]

Pak drone shot down near IB in Gujarat’s Kutch: Police sources

The shooting down of the drone comes on the day IAF struck a Jaish camp in Balakot deep across the LoC dropping 1,000 pound bombs in a thickly-forested hilltop

www.hindustantimes.com

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...-on-rajasthan-border/articleshow/68262560.cms

After Balakot strike, Pakistan drone shot down near Gujarat border

Hours after IAF Surgical Strike: On hearing a loud sound around 6 am, villagers went to the spot and found the debris of the UAV, the sources said.

indianexpress.com

Pakistani Drone Shot Down In Rajasthan. Fourth Since Balakot Air Strike

A Pakistani drone was shot down by India in Rajasthan's Sri Ganganagar district on Sunday. This is the fourth time that a Pakistani drone was intercepted by India since the air strike on a terror training camp across the Line of Control in Balakot by the Indian Air Force.

www.ndtv.com

2 were shot down by spyder one was downed by Su30 the last one i dont know.

There are a whole lot of things that happened those few days, those in the know-how, know more than enough and for a better reason, won't be discussed here or elsewhere. It's the case on both sides.

Exactly - which is why I prefer their confirmation rather than the massive propaganda that was being thrown out in those days.

 

[dbc]

efficiency of their use is to be seen

ARM aren't very effective most times it's used in the hope that the emitter will cease transmission while the missile is in the air. Vietnam used this simple tactic quite effectively against early versions of ARMs that the US developed. In Iraq, the US did not enjoy much success with ARM either. Most times it was used to force the radar off the air so the formation could get close enough to engage with Maverick or LGB.
Often, the radar proved too much of a challenge so the launcher itself was targeted, these go out with a spectacular bang and hurl debris creating sufficient damage to sometimes take the radar offline.

Modern variants of Tomahawk has a loiter mode which combines data from onboard and off board sensors to effectively counter this tactic. The missile loiters and passively geolocates hostile emitters once found the missile can target the emitter with very little warning. Sort of like the Israeli Harop but with no human in the loop. The above tactic is easily reproduced by the Rafale or the F16 but with either stand off munitions or cruise missiles. The prerequisite is a good radar, GPS, interferometer array, self protection jammer and towed decoy.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Tejas, when initial envisoned, to the best of my knowledge was a replacement for Mig-21s. Over a period of time, due to delays, it became a science project of sorts and now it is threatening to become a Mig-29 replacement in its next avatar. Give it few more decades and damn thing will be a 747 replacement with ability to fire every missile in India's inventory and will have a towed radar array.

That's telling it like it is.

Ideally, a stealthy fighter should fire it in vicinity of a refueller and get the hell out without turning on its radar and let a AWACS guide in mid-course and let seeker handle terminal phase.

Is it possible in IAF @Joe Shearer?

Yes, except we don't have a stealthy fighter. The closest is the Tejas because of its very light weight and small size, but it is no stealth machine.

How did this thread suddenly turn into one of the few decent discussions on the forum?
Lucky we.