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'Lips and teeth' no more as China's ties with North Korea deteriorate

ohmrlobalobayeh

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Yet another Indian, anti-china propaganda:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...th-korea-deteriorate/articleshow/60437694.cms

BEIJING: When Kim Jong Un inherited power in North Korea in late 2011, then-Chinese president Hu Jintao was outwardly supportive of the untested young leader, predicting that "traditional friendly cooperation" between the countries would strengthen.

Two years later, Kim ordered the execution of his uncle Jang Song Thaek, the country's chief interlocutor with China and a relatively reform-minded official in the hermetic state.

Since then, ties between the allies have deteriorated so sharply that some diplomats and experts fear Beijing may become, like Washington, a target of its neighbour's ire.

While the United States and its allies - and many people in China - believe Beijing should do more to rein in Pyongyang, the acceleration of North Korea's nuclear and missile capabilities has coincided with a near-total breakdown of high-level diplomacy between the two.

Before retiring this summer, China's long-time point man on North Korea, Wu Dawei, had not visited the country for over a year. His replacement, Kong Xuanyou, has yet to visit and is still carrying out duties from his previous Asian role, travelling to Pakistan in mid-August, diplomats say.

The notion that mighty China wields diplomatic control over impoverished North Korea is mistaken, said Jin Canrong, an international relations professor at Beijing's Renmin University.

"There has never existed a subordinate relationship between the two sides. Never. Especially after the end of the Cold War, the North Koreans fell into a difficult situation and could not get enough help from China, so they determined to help themselves."

A famine in the mid-1990s that claimed anywhere from 200,000 to three million North Koreans was a turning point for the economy, forcing private trade on the collectivized state. That allowed the North a degree of independence from outside aid and gave credence to the official "Juche" ideology of self-reliance.

Avoid chaos


China fought alongside North Korea during the 1950-53 Korean War, in which Chinese leader Mao Zedong lost his eldest son, and Beijing has long been Pyongyang's chief ally and primary trade partner.

While their relationship has always been clouded by suspicion and mistrust, China grudgingly tolerated North Korea's provocations as preferable to the alternatives: chaotic collapse that spills across their border, and a Korean peninsula under the domain of a US-backed Seoul government.

That is also the reason China is reluctant to exert its considerable economic clout, worried that measures as drastic as the energy embargo proposed this week by Washington could lead to the North's collapse.

Instead, China repeatedly calls for calm, restraint and a negotiated solution.

The North Korean government does not provide foreign media with a contact point in Pyongyang for comment by email, fax or phone. The North Korean embassy in Beijing was not immediately available for comment.

China's foreign ministry did not respond to a faxed request for comment. It has repeatedly spoken out against what it calls the "China responsibility theory" and insists the direct parties - North Korea, South Korea and the United States - hold the key to resolving tensions.

'Feudal ages'

Until his death in 2011, North Korean leader Kim Jong Il made numerous entreaties to ensure China would back his preferred son as successor.

While then-President Hu reciprocated, the younger Kim, in his late 20s at the time, began to distance himself from his country's most powerful ally.

"There's a lot of domestic politics in North Korea where this young leader who isn't well-known, he's not proven yet, especially has to show that he's not in the pocket of Beijing," said John Delury of Seoul's Yonsei University. "I think he made the decision first to keep Hu Jintao and then (current President) Xi Jinping really at bay."

Within months of coming to power, Kim telegraphed North Korea's intentions by amending its constitution to proclaim itself a nuclear state. The execution of Jang in 2013 sealed Beijing's distrust of the young leader.

"Of course the Chinese were not happy," said a foreign diplomat in Beijing focused on North Korea. "Executing your uncle, that's from the feudal ages."

In an attempt to warm ties, Xi sent high-ranking Communist Party official Liu Yunshan to attend the North's October 2015 military parade marking the 70th anniversary of the founding of the Workers' Party of Korea.

Liu hand-delivered a letter from Xi praising Kim's leadership and including congratulations not just from the Chinese Communist Party but Xi's personal "cordial wishes" in a powerful show of respect.

Xi's overture has been repaid with increasingly brazen actions by Pyongyang, which many observers believe are timed for maximum embarrassment to Beijing. Sunday's nuclear test, for example, took place as China hosted a BRICS summit, while in May, the North launched a long-range missile just hours before the Belt and Road Forum, dedicated to Xi's signature foreign policy initiative.

Misreading lips

Mao Zedong's description of North Korea's relationship with China is typically mischaracterised as being as close as "lips and teeth".

His words are better translated as: "If the lips are gone, the teeth will be cold," a reference to the strategic importance of the North as a geographical security buffer.

Despite its resentment at the pressure North Korea's actions have put it under, Beijing refrains from taking too hard a line.

It said little when Kim Jong Un's half-brother was assassinated in February at Kuala Lumpur's airport. The half-brother, Kim Jong Nam, had been seen as a potential rival for power in Pyongyang and had lived for years in Beijing, then Macau.

An editorial in China's influential Global Times warned after Pyongyang's latest nuclear test that cutting off North Korea's oil would redirect the conflict to one between North Korea and China.




ya and Indians, hoping CHina has less friends now- can masturbate to China's and it's brethen's ties 'deteriorating'.
 
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China and North Korea was never that close. We always know how erratic they are.

That's true, North Korea always went against China's wishes, even as far back as the Korean War when China told the first Kim not to attack the South, and not to drag China into a war.

What China needs is not North Korea, but rather a buffer zone. Now this can be North Korea, it can be a special zone made out of Korean territory, or anything else.

In the end, China's mutual defence treaty says that if South Korea and the US attack first, then China will enter the war (again) in order to preserve our buffer zone, which will be the Korean War 2.0. But if North Korea attacks first, then we have no obligations. Though China will still likely seek some sort of buffer zone via military means, and if South Korea and the US learned their lessons from the last Korean War they will stay clear.
 
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Kim Jong Un is a mad man...if required he can change the direction of his nuke tipped missiles towards China. Nobody in North Korea's periphery is safe.
 
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Good, I think China and Russia know that North Korea is not worth a massive war with the west, no matter the results.
 
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Good, I think China and Russia know that North Korea is not worth a massive war with the west, no matter the results.

Well, what happened with the last Korean War?

During the Korean War, China said to the US + 16 of her allies: "Do not approach the Yalu River". That's all, we just wanted a buffer zone along our border with North Korea. That's not much to ask for.

But history shows how that turned out. The US ignored China's warning, resulting in a massive Chinese attack on US forces, causing the longest ever retreat in US military history.

Now let's see if they learned whether or not it is worth it to give China a buffer zone.
 
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That's true, North Korea always went against China's wishes, even as far back as the Korean War when China told the first Kim not to attack the South, and not to drag China into a war.

What China needs is not North Korea, but rather a buffer zone. Now this can be North Korea, it can be a special zone made out of Korean territory, or anything else.

In the end, China's mutual defence treaty says that if South Korea and the US attack first, then China will enter the war (again) in order to preserve our buffer zone, which will be the Korean War 2.0. But if North Korea attacks first, then we have no obligations. Though China will still likely seek some sort of buffer zone via military means, and if South Korea and the US learned their lessons from the last Korean War they will stay clear.
sounds a bit like the US/NATO obligation to their article 5 collective defence where the Turks would be on their own if they decided to initiate an attack on Russian/Iranian forces in Syria for example.
 
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Sometimes I wonder if Pakistan gets a similar 'ditch' move by China (from recent experience) ...... then what, 'stronger that plastic'???? :D
 
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Sometimes I wonder if Pakistan gets a similar 'ditch' move by China (from recent experience) ...... then what, 'stronger that plastic'???? :D

China and Pakistan don't have a mutual defence treaty to begin with. :P
 
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Defence treaties are useless to begin with. It's the perception of safety which kills nations who are not self reliant. I hope GHQ's psychological veil of invincibility vis-a-vis China's help is being reviewed to the core.

Pakistan and Pakistanis need to understand that the only interests that matter are 'commercial interests'.... that is how it always was and will remain.

We need to work out a foreign policy where we squeeze every penny (+strategic weapon system along with R&D) that we can from various geo-strategic deals involving big shrimps such as the US and China. Whosoever pays more and is guaranteed to win gets our loyalty.

My personal calculation suggests that in this tug-of-war between China and the US, Pakistan will play a pivotal road. Whosoever we choose, we should choose ONLY ONE AND with full-pants-down once we have set-out crystal clear rules of "WHAT WILL WE GET OUT OF IT"..... not like the 80's, during USSR times.

I say go with the US after full consultations (after the greatest dick move by China recently).....



China and Pakistan don't have a mutual defence treaty to begin with. :P
 
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I say go with the US after full consultations (after the greatest dick move by China recently).....

So you are one of those pro-American Pakistanis. Is there any political party in the running who shares that view? :P

Also, out of curiosity, when was the last time China attacked a Pakistani Army military outpost, killing scores of Pakistanis? Or used drones to kill countless Pakistani civilians?

And what "dick move" by the way? Do you mean forcing India to unilaterally retreat from Donglang, and handing over that territory to China?
 
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Well, what happened with the last Korean War?

During the Korean War, China said to the US + 16 of her allies: "Do not approach the Yalu River". That's all, we just wanted a buffer zone along our border with North Korea. That's not much to ask for.

But history shows how that turned out. The US ignored China's warning, resulting in a massive Chinese attack on US forces, causing the longest ever retreat in US military history.

Now let's see if they learned whether or not it is worth it to give China a buffer zone.
This is between you and the Americans, I don't want to get into an argument here.

Anyways, war between the US and its allies against North Korea is inevitable, a question from me, do you believe North Korea's standing point is legitimate, and if the US attacks after a nuclear test or something, do you believe China will come to help North Korea or stay outside?
 
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On the contrary, I despise nothing more than what the US government stands for. Until recently I was 'Go China' kind of guy, however, one thing I love more than China and the US is Pakistan. Pakistan first.

With the US, it has to be a deal with the devil, at least a devil we understand. China is an emerging power (on a path to superpower status), however, not there yet, not by a long shot, and Pakistan could've been a very reliable partner for it the long run (20 years in future where it could have become a truly superpower). Having said that, look what has happened in the last few weeks, "Doklam Standoff", who won "The Chicken"? What happened at BRICS declaration? These all show China's back-bone. And that's enough for us to change direction.

So your characterisation of me being an American sympathiser..... I don't think so.


So you are one of those pro-American Pakistanis. Is there any political party in the running who shares that view? :P

And what "dick move" by the way? Do you mean forcing India to unilaterally retreat from Donglang, and handing over that territory to China?
 
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This is between you and the Americans, I don't want to get into an argument here.

Anyways, war between the US and its allies against North Korea is inevitable, a question from me, do you believe North Korea's standing point is legitimate, and if the US attacks after a nuclear test or something, do you believe China will come to help North Korea or stay outside?

What do you mean North Korea's "standing point"?

The wording of the mutual defence treaty between China and North Korea says that China will be forced to enter the war if South Korea and America are the first to attack.

If North Korea is the first to attack, then the treaty does not apply.

I don't think a missile test would be sufficient to classify as a first attack from North Korea.

So your characterisation of me being an American sympathiser..... I don't think so.

When was the last time that China attacked a Pakistani military outpost, killing scores of Pakistani soldiers?

When was the last time Chinese armed drones killed countless numbers of innocent Pakistani civilians?

If you truly love Pakistan, then why would you choose America, the country who kills your own people left and right whenever they feel like it? That sounds anti-Pakistani to me, and I think you should worry about your safety if you choose to be pro-American in Pakistan.
 
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All because of unclear foreign policy. We have to take definitive sides now. One or the other. China or the US. But the T&C's have to be in black and white. No deviation and relaxation of these terms. It is a long drawn war between the US and China, and no matter who we choose, we have to be the ONE who comes on top.

I love the geo strategic location of Pakistan. Trust you me, it is us who will choose the victor in the long run. Pakistan has been selling itself short for the past few decades, it's about time we increase our asking rate, and that we shall do, no matter what.

When was the last time that China attacked a Pakistani military outpost, killing scores of Pakistani soldiers?

When was the last time Chinese armed drones killed countless numbers of innocent Pakistani civilians?

If you truly love Pakistan, then why would you choose America, the country who kills your own people left and right whenever they feel like it?
 
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