Lies My Teacher Told Me

[FaujHistorian]

A while back I read the book "Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong"

Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong: James W. Loewen: 9780743296281: Amazon.com: Books

I realized that every country makes up its history to some degree. At least for school kids.

But then we need to grow up and read books that challenge the existing set of theories and stories. This is how we develop.


I had to start this thread to counter the false notions peddled as facts in another thread
An intolerant educational system made me indifferent to the death of non-Muslims

I love the essay in that thread. Good read.

But it falls short in one specific way.

It doesn't show (perhaps it cannot) that Americans are this way because there is no war and persecution in the story that describes founding of America.

Similarly there are no war stories, no persecution stories in history books for china, India, S Korea, Iran, Israel etc.


Is it true that Pakistan happens to be the only country where school history books were written by Genges Khan?

And every other country in the world got their school history books written by Mother Theresa (May God bless her soul)!

Would you all accept it on mere face value if someone stated that Mother Theresa was the founding mom of France so that's why French people are so soft spoken and easy going?


The issue with such essays by Bakhtawar Bilal Soofi is that he takes one item, one strand and tries to prove things as if they are statiscal facts.

But they are not.

Bakhtawar Bilal Soofi uses a lot of assumptions that sounds right, but no contrasting study is provided to change his theory from just an idea to something that is relatively on firm grounds.

I think it is a cheap excuse that he danced on 9/11 because his school book was bad.

Like my dog ate my homework. No one should buy it. No one!

Moral values, and other stuff that shows human decency is learned from parents and reinforced by society in general.

Schools or text books just play a small part, very small part.


Those who say schools should be reformed may have a point to some extent.

But we should not use schools as communist style indoctrination gulags to push students one way or the other.

In every society there are leftists/socialists, and the pro-free market groups.

Instead of saying why such and such group says that, it is better to pick your favorite group and support it with whatever means you got.

No crying and moaning and groaning. Just work!

peace

p.s. Let the law and order situation not be used for scoring political points. Just support Pak military and police officers. Let them do their job with full political support. popular support and massive support. If the support is not there, then work on it, no moaning, groaning, crying girly style

 

[RescueRanger]

A while back I rad the book "Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong"

Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong: James W. Loewen: 9780743296281: Amazon.com: Books

Then I realized that every country makes up its history to some degree. At least for school kids.

But then we need to grow up and read books that challenge the existing set of theories and stories. This is how we develop.


I had to start this thread to counter the false notions peddled as facts in another thread
An intolerant educational system made me indifferent to the death of non-Muslims

I love the essay in that thread. Good read.

But it falls short in one specific way.

It doesn't show (perhaps it cannot) that Americans are this way because there is no war and persecution in the story that describes founding of America.

Similarly there are no war stories, no persecution stories in history books for china, India, S Korea, Iran, Israel etc.


Is it true that Pakistan happens to be the only country where school history books were written by Genges Khan?

And every other country in the world got their school history books written by Mother Theresa (May God bless her soul)!

Would you all accept it on mere face value if someone stated that Mother Theresa was the founding mom of France so that's why French people are so soft spoken and easy going?


The issue with such essays by Bakhtawar Bilal Soofi is that it takes one item, one strand and tries to prove things as if they are statiscally proven facts.

But they are not.

Bakhtawar Bilal Soofi uses a lot of assumptions that sounds right, but no contrasting study is provided to change his theory from just an idea to something that is relatively on firm grounds.

I think it is a cheap excuse that he danced on 9/11 because his school book was bad.

Like my dog ate my homework. No one should buy it. No one!

Moral values, and other stuff that shows human decency is learned from parents and reinforced by society in general.

Schools or text books just play a small part, very small part.


Those who say schools should be reformed may have a point to some extent.

But we should not use schools as communist style indoctrination gulags to push students one way or the other.

In every society there are leftists/socialists, and the pro-free market groups.

Instead of saying why such and such group says that, it is better to pick your favorite group and support it with whatever means you got.

No crying and moaning and groaning. Just work!

peace

p.s. Let the law and order situation not be used for scoring political points. Just support Pak military and police officers. Let them do their job with full political support. popular support and massive support. If the support is not there, then work on it, no moaning, groaning, crying girly style

Brilliant thread and nice share sir.

No crying and moaning and groaning. Just work!

Reminded me of this golden oldie:

 

[FaujHistorian]

Brilliant thread and nice share sir.


Reminded me of this golden oldie:

[media youtube]WbF4n4G5sME[media]

Thank you. I wonder our esteemed posters would comment here.


@k_arura, @Solomon2, @Talon, @Pakistani Exile, @TaimiKhan, @Leviza, @notsuperstitious, @Armstrong, @KRAIT, @levina, @Jungibaaz.

 

[Solomon2]

Oooh, this book so goes on my reading list!

However, some of the OP post confuses me:

It doesn't show (perhaps it cannot) that Americans are this way because there is no war and persecution in the story that describes founding of America. Similarly there are no war stories, no persecution stories in history books for china, India, S Korea, Iran, Israel etc.

As I understand it, the founding stories of the U.S., South Korea, and Israel are full of war and persecution: the Separtists fleeing the domination of the Church of England, Colonists defending themselves against French-controlled Native Americans, the Jews standing in defense against the genocidal terrors of the Egyptians, Arabs, and Europeans, the S.K.'s fighting to hold back the tyranny of Communism.

When a people cannot have justice in the midst of another they must either establish their own national government themselves or accept domination or death.

Instead of saying why such and such group says that, it is better to pick your favorite group and support it with whatever means you got.

There is no surer route to warfare between peoples than this, is there?

 

[FaujHistorian]

Oooh, this book so goes on my reading list!

Yes. It is an excellent book. No conspiracy theories. Just facts.

However, some of the OP post confuses me:

As I understand it, the founding stories of the U.S., South Korea, and Israel are full of war and persecution: the Separtists fleeing the domination of the Church of England, Colonists defending themselves against French-controlled Native Americans, the Jews standing in defense against the genocidal terrors of the Egyptians, Arabs, and Europeans, the S.K.'s fighting to hold back the tyranny of Communism.

Look at the contents of other thread where the author was Bakhtawar Soofi.

Read the assertions made by Soofi.


Thanks.

 

[Solomon2]

p.s. Let the law and order situation not be used for scoring political points. Just support Pak military and police officers. Let them do their job with full political support. popular support and massive support.

Every society needs checks and balances. Police states invariably decay into high-crime states as the police concentrate on battling the political opposition.

Rather, establish good legal norms and stick to them, apply oversight to the police, and equip the police with the tools they need to enforce laws in a non-partisan, non-discriminatory fashion. That means putting faith in good forensics rather than the verbal accounts of either eyewitnesses or police. When I read colonial accounts of the British occupation of India probably the greatest criticism of Indians was the willingness of distant cousins to lie through their teeth under oath to provide alibis to people who were genuinely guilty of crimes, simply because as a relative it was proper to violate laws that everybody else was supposed to obey.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Every society needs checks and balances. Police states invariably decay into high-crime states as the police concentrate on battling the political opposition.

Rather, establish good legal norms and stick to them, apply oversight to the police, and equip the police with the tools they need to enforce laws in a non-partisan, non-discriminatory fashion. That means putting faith in good forensics rather than the verbal accounts of either eyewitnesses or police. When I read colonial accounts of the British occupation of India probably the greatest criticism of Indians was the willingness of distant cousins to lie through their teeth under oath to provide alibis to people who were genuinely guilty of crimes, simply because as a relative it was proper to violate laws that everybody else was supposed to obey.

FYI> We follow the same English judicial system as pretty much every country in the region like INdia, and BDesh.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Schools or text books just play a small part, very small part.
Those who say schools should be reformed may have a point to some extent.
But we should not use schools as communist style indoctrination gulags to push students one way or the other.

Government run public schools in democratic republics and "Education Boards " are in fact communist theory applied to education !! And its better than Free Enterprise applied to education if lesser Ideological and intellectual disparities are desired

Propaganda is part of every system . e.g you are criticising "communist style" and you are doing so because of "anti communist" propaganda of the capitalists and by doing so you yourself have become a part of propaganda machinery . It works somewhat like "positive feedback vicious cycle" .

I think Text Books and schools play a significant role in personality developing . Individuals then make societies . The problem is not in the educational system or textbooks . Its just that Media has become the most effective Teacher/Textbook/School etc. all in one . Its the era of Information and Connectivity . Too much of info and connectivity may have given us benefits but its negative effects cant be ignored . Today mankind is more "confused" than ever before

 

[KRAIT]

Thank you. I wonder our esteemed posters would comment here.
.

Buddy. kindly see my reply on that thread. The video I shared is what I believe in. People of every country are told lies.

I also know about pain of Palestinian people and the work done by many war journalists who have brought out what mainstream media doesn't report.

For me, no matter where the person belongs to, the aggressive party who kills an innocent is wrong.

I don't support Maoists in our country but I also don't support state approach which oppressed them to death.

That's why I always advocated for rights of tribal but never agreed with Maoists philosophy.

 

[Levina]

Thank you. I wonder our esteemed posters would comment here.
@Leviza@levina

Esteemed??? Ahem ahem....i hope you've not confused my name with @Leviza 's.
So esteemed ka pata nahi but i am here to give my 2 cents...

I read the book "Lies My Teacher Told Me:

No nooo i dont teach lies to my students
I cant say about other countries but there are a few things i want to say about my country's educational system.

Warning:
I am about to ruffle a few feathers here...so
to those who might disagree to my POV take it or leave it.

Schools that are socially and culturally exclusivist are likely to lead to tendencies of social exclusivism in the children studying in these institutions. It is not without reason therefore that in India the RSS and other Hindu fundamentalist organisations are engaged in establishing thousands of shishu niketans in the country with a view to inculcating the values of Hindutva among children or that the Muslim clergy maintains that Muslim children must study in madrassas.(There comes the RSS brigade with its spade to attack me )
The so called elite doesn’t understand this. It demands the “modernisation” of madrassa education....when it should be demanding its abolition. The basic issue is not just the modernisation of shishu mandirs or madrassas. The source of the problem is the Indian Constitution which has an article(i dont remember the number) that givea us “the right to profess, practice and propagate religion” which has been extended to the right to establish exclusivist educational institutions.....all the good intentions of our constitution makers are watered down.
Not so long back in India dalit children couldnot share seats with the children of the dominant Upper Castes.
I think it was Vijay Tendulkar (phaleees dont even think about it....hes in no way related to Sachin Tendulkar) who once wrote a powerful story about his experiences of studying in a school which had stereotyped Muslim children as “butchers” and “killers” of cows and animals....let me remind you hindus dont eat cow...cows are supposed to be sacred.
But if this is the reality in government schools you can only imagine the situation in shishu mandirs and madrassas. Cultural pluralism can never survive such a setting. It is never too late to mend matters and ensure that our schools impart a secular education that recognises the multicultural and multi religious traditions of India. The crux of the issue is that if children are exposed to high doses of Islamic theology or Hindu mythology by teachers who are, in reality, religious preachers, the future of secularism is doomed.
Last I heard UPA govt brought in Rahul Gandhi to CBSE texts calling him a powerful leader.....lol.
And believe it or not in karnataka they had decided to delete all references of Tipu sultan.Just a reminder Tipu sultan's army was the first to successfully deploy iron cased mysorean jackets......and a pic of it hangs in NASA too.
What a shame that in India Tipu Sultan doesnt get that kinda recognition!

Another Tiger in the cross-hairs - Indian Express Mobile

 

[Pakistani E]

A while back I read the book "Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong"

Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong: James W. Loewen: 9780743296281: Amazon.com: Books

I realized that every country makes up its history to some degree. At least for school kids.

But then we need to grow up and read books that challenge the existing set of theories and stories. This is how we develop.


I had to start this thread to counter the false notions peddled as facts in another thread
An intolerant educational system made me indifferent to the death of non-Muslims

I love the essay in that thread. Good read.

But it falls short in one specific way.

It doesn't show (perhaps it cannot) that Americans are this way because there is no war and persecution in the story that describes founding of America.

Similarly there are no war stories, no persecution stories in history books for china, India, S Korea, Iran, Israel etc.


Is it true that Pakistan happens to be the only country where school history books were written by Genges Khan?

And every other country in the world got their school history books written by Mother Theresa (May God bless her soul)!

Would you all accept it on mere face value if someone stated that Mother Theresa was the founding mom of France so that's why French people are so soft spoken and easy going?


The issue with such essays by Bakhtawar Bilal Soofi is that he takes one item, one strand and tries to prove things as if they are statiscal facts.

But they are not.

Bakhtawar Bilal Soofi uses a lot of assumptions that sounds right, but no contrasting study is provided to change his theory from just an idea to something that is relatively on firm grounds.

I think it is a cheap excuse that he danced on 9/11 because his school book was bad.

Like my dog ate my homework. No one should buy it. No one!

Moral values, and other stuff that shows human decency is learned from parents and reinforced by society in general.

Schools or text books just play a small part, very small part.


Those who say schools should be reformed may have a point to some extent.

But we should not use schools as communist style indoctrination gulags to push students one way or the other.

In every society there are leftists/socialists, and the pro-free market groups.

Instead of saying why such and such group says that, it is better to pick your favorite group and support it with whatever means you got.

No crying and moaning and groaning. Just work!

peace

p.s. Let the law and order situation not be used for scoring political points. Just support Pak military and police officers. Let them do their job with full political support. popular support and massive support. If the support is not there, then work on it, no moaning, groaning, crying girly style

I agree with you. Putting blame on others for your own actions is quite low. The fact that, that guy danced shows that there was something wrong with him and the people who he grew up. And the values he was taught. So I agree blaming the education system was too one dimensional, primarily because the education system is a product of the society's values and beliefs and issues of what is acceptable.

Now the problem, I feel, comes from what we have made acceptable in our society, it's not just to do with religious intolerance, it is the dehumanisation of the "other". We see this in ethnic killings, political killings and even domestic abuses. When a nation becomes indifferent to the killings of its own people, how do you expect it to feel any sympathy towards others.

 

[Solomon2]

I also know about pain of Palestinian people and the work done by many war journalists who have brought out what mainstream media doesn't report.

I wonder. So many have pity for the supposed hardships created by the Israelis, rather than the omnipresent tyranny of Hamas and Fatah. Do you appreciate the pain of Palestinian Arabs who must find a way to live every day in fear of terrorist thugs who are supported from abroad? People who cannot escape from hatred because so much of the world gangs together to enforce it?

 

[FaujHistorian]

Schools that are socially and culturally exclusivist are likely to lead to tendencies of social exclusivism in the children studying in these institutions. It is not without reason therefore that in India the RSS and other Hindu fundamentalist organisations are engaged in establishing thousands of shishu niketans in the country with a view to inculcating the values of Hindutva among children or that the Muslim clergy maintains that Muslim children must study in madrassas.(There comes the RSS brigade with its spade to attack me )


The so called elite doesn’t understand this. It demands the “modernisation” of madrassa education....when it should be demanding its abolition. The basic issue is not just the modernisation of shishu mandirs or madrassas.

Wow. You have hit the proverbial nail on the head. Wow!

Here is the idea worth golden nuggets.

Yes. exclusivist schools and institutions are the total negation of democratic principles.

I am with you and I hope majority of Indians and Pakistanis support you on this.

Esteemed??? Ahem ahem....i hope you've not confused my name with @Leviza 's.
So esteemed ka pata nahi but i am here to give my 2 cents...
.

You are so humble my dear. so humble.

What you just wrote above exclusivism and its dangers, well I don't what else is needed to see if you are truly "esteemed".

wish I could think of a better and more powerful term than esteemed.


Bravo.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Wow. You have hit the proverbial nail on the head. Wow!

Here is the idea worth golden nuggets.

Yes. exclusivist schools and institutions are the total negation of democratic principles.

I am with you and I hope majority of Indians and Pakistanis support you on this.




You are so humble my dear. so humble.

What you just wrote above exclusivism and its dangers, well I don't what else is needed to see if you are truly "esteemed".

wish I could think of a better and more powerful term than esteemed.


Bravo.

Shishu Niketan?
Spreading Hindutva ideology?
Provide some sources please - and not countercurrents

Recognition for Tipu Sultan?
True - his massacres of Indians and others should be highlighted instead of brushing them under the carpet. His exceptionally bloody campaign (about which he boasted in letters) in North Kerala should also not go unnoticed. Besides his 'promotion' of Persian and Urdu is the reason why many people(Muslims) of Karnataka speak Urdu unlike Tamil Nadu and Kerala.
The Mysorean rockets were good improvisations of the time and should be taught. But we must remember that the first cruise missiles, jet planes, assault rifles, etc were all first invented and put to use by Nazi Germany.

Bottomline: recognition not equal to glorification

 

[Dubious]

It is said History is written by those who won the war! Many things are ALWAYS edited....All the crap in the monarchies of Europe have NEVER been mentioned in a SCHOOL BOOK...you have to read them from a folk tale, play or some other story which ALWAYS has already been spiced up!