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Leave Siachen to the elements

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Opinion


Leave Siachen to the elements

Brian Cloughley

Sunday, June 10, 2012



On 11-12 June there are to be talks in Islamabad between the defence secretaries of India and Pakistan about the Siachen catastrophe. But failure warnings went out early, with India’s defence minister AK Antony declaring that we should not “expect dramatic results. It is a complicated issue.”



Let’s get this straight, once and for all: it is NOT a complicated issue. It is a very simple matter, because the region was not delineated in 1972 by extension of the Line of Control that divides the regions of Kashmir administered by India and Pakistan. It was a useless, horrible icy waste without inhabitants or any sort of natural resources, and devoid of strategic utility.



It remains that way, save for one thing: it is occupied by soldiers of the armies of India and Pakistan, far too many of whom have died for nothing save the chauvinistic pride of national leaders who could have solved the problem with commonsense and the stroke of a pen if they had the moral courage to do so. It should now revert, as speedily as possible, to its former totally demilitarised state, accessed only by intrepid mountaineers.



I knew one of the Indian officers who helped draw the Line and he told me in Srinagar in 1982 that the 12 officers (six from each country) who were tasked with the demarcation ceased doing so at the beginning of the glacier country because “nobody in their right mind (or words to that effect) could possibly want any of the land between there and the Great Wall of China.”



As I wrote elsewhere, “Nobody, at that time, imagined that there might be military confrontation in the area. It would be futile to attempt to wage war at such heights, at the end of long lines of communication, with no strategic or even tactical aim, in an area in which mere existence (and no-one lived there) would involve great hazard in moving tiny distances. Who would send troops to occupy a terrifying wasteland where there was no threat of invasion or even territorial infringement?” The answer, alas, was Mrs Gandhi in 1984. Her flawed rationale for the Indian occupation continues, and the Indian press has been fed with reasons for India to refuse to vacate the area.



One of these, as reported by The Tribune in Chandigarh (a good newspaper with excellent military sources), is that Siachen is a “high-value strategic asset” which is, to put it kindly, utter nonsense. Another piece of claptrap is the claim that “Indian Army is at the strategic heights. Once vacated, these would become vulnerable.” And the assertion that “There are nearly 11,000 men of People’s Liberation Army (PLA) in Gilgit, Baltistan and other parts of the Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Some of them are very close to the glacier” is so mind-bogglingly preposterous as to make one doubt the sanity of the person who contrived it.



The Siachen tragedy has gone on for far too long, and the politicians and diplomats should follow the advice of General Kayani when he says that “This conflict should be resolved”. But the black rocks of phony national pride are just as dangerous as the icy crags of the northern wastes. The declaration by President Zardari at a PPP rally in April that “India is suffering more losses in Siachen than Pakistan,” was not only grotesquely insensitive, it is an indicator of what politicians in both countries believe to be important. And that isn’t soldiers’ lives.



Mankind is a territorial species, and occupation of ground is an imperative for human survival. It is therefore understandable that disputes are frequent between individuals, tribes and nations concerning ownership or entitlement to terrain that may or may seem to offer economic or political benefit. Nationalism and religion are powerful determinants of war, but in many conflicts the root cause has been and will continue to be the perception that control must be effected over stretches of land (or water) that might be dismally irrelevant to the well-being and development of inhabitants ? if any ? or in the interests of the wider population.



Such disputes can exercise lethal attraction for those in a position to direct that military action be taken to establish territorial ascendancy, and can lead to wider and disastrous conflict. There seems to be no limit to man’s appetite for confrontation, even when it is apparent that muscular bluster almost inevitably leads to the catastrophe of war.



New Delhi insists there be “Verification of Actual Ground Position Line” which is gibberish. Everyone knows to the last bunker exactly where the positions of both sides are located. And anyway this is irrelevant, because when both armies leave the region, which they should, ek dum, who cares where the bunkers were?



The region should be demilitarised, exactly as it was before Mrs Gandhi ordered her invasion, and as advocated by General Kayani. National and international surveillance systems can determine whether or not military vacation has taken place. The best solution would be third-party monitoring (which New Delhi abhors for reasons of mistaken national pride), but no matter what system is emplaced, both countries would benefit enormously from cessation of this bizarre standoff.



And if Dr Manmohan Singh and President Zardari really want to achieve a place in world history, with a joint Nobel Peace Prize, they would do well to get busy. They might even save some lives if they leave Siachen to the elements.



The writer is a South Asian affairs analyst and a former UN peacekeeper. Website is www.beecluff.com
 
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Opinion


New Delhi insists there be “Verification of Actual Ground Position Line” which is gibberish. Everyone knows to the last bunker exactly where the positions of both sides are located. And anyway this is irrelevant, because when both armies leave the region, which they should, ek dum, who cares where the bunkers were?

How convenient it is to pontificate and give suggestions when its someone else's property. Mush too tried this with his " out of the box but inside the ISI mind" suggestions of dividing J&K into regions & removing the borders !!

Who cares where the bunkers were ? The last time India left the snow bound regions un attended, Kargil happened.

Therefore, thanks but No Thanks.

No withdrawl without signatures , till then possession remains 9/10th of the law.
 
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Opinion


Leave Siachen to the elements

Brian Cloughley

Sunday, June 10, 2012



On 11-12 June there are to be talks in Islamabad between the defence secretaries of India and Pakistan about the Siachen catastrophe. But failure warnings went out early, with India’s defence minister AK Antony declaring that we should not “expect dramatic results. It is a complicated issue.”



Let’s get this straight, once and for all: it is NOT a complicated issue. It is a very simple matter, because the region was not delineated in 1972 by extension of the Line of Control that divides the regions of Kashmir administered by India and Pakistan. It was a useless, horrible icy waste without inhabitants or any sort of natural resources, and devoid of strategic utility.



It remains that way, save for one thing: it is occupied by soldiers of the armies of India and Pakistan, far too many of whom have died for nothing save the chauvinistic pride of national leaders who could have solved the problem with commonsense and the stroke of a pen if they had the moral courage to do so. It should now revert, as speedily as possible, to its former totally demilitarised state, accessed only by intrepid mountaineers.



I knew one of the Indian officers who helped draw the Line and he told me in Srinagar in 1982 that the 12 officers (six from each country) who were tasked with the demarcation ceased doing so at the beginning of the glacier country because “nobody in their right mind (or words to that effect) could possibly want any of the land between there and the Great Wall of China.”



As I wrote elsewhere, “Nobody, at that time, imagined that there might be military confrontation in the area. It would be futile to attempt to wage war at such heights, at the end of long lines of communication, with no strategic or even tactical aim, in an area in which mere existence (and no-one lived there) would involve great hazard in moving tiny distances. Who would send troops to occupy a terrifying wasteland where there was no threat of invasion or even territorial infringement?” The answer, alas, was Mrs Gandhi in 1984. Her flawed rationale for the Indian occupation continues, and the Indian press has been fed with reasons for India to refuse to vacate the area.



One of these, as reported by The Tribune in Chandigarh (a good newspaper with excellent military sources), is that Siachen is a “high-value strategic asset” which is, to put it kindly, utter nonsense. Another piece of claptrap is the claim that “Indian Army is at the strategic heights. Once vacated, these would become vulnerable.” And the assertion that “There are nearly 11,000 men of People’s Liberation Army (PLA) in Gilgit, Baltistan and other parts of the Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Some of them are very close to the glacier” is so mind-bogglingly preposterous as to make one doubt the sanity of the person who contrived it.



The Siachen tragedy has gone on for far too long, and the politicians and diplomats should follow the advice of General Kayani when he says that “This conflict should be resolved”. But the black rocks of phony national pride are just as dangerous as the icy crags of the northern wastes. The declaration by President Zardari at a PPP rally in April that “India is suffering more losses in Siachen than Pakistan,” was not only grotesquely insensitive, it is an indicator of what politicians in both countries believe to be important. And that isn’t soldiers’ lives.



Mankind is a territorial species, and occupation of ground is an imperative for human survival. It is therefore understandable that disputes are frequent between individuals, tribes and nations concerning ownership or entitlement to terrain that may or may seem to offer economic or political benefit. Nationalism and religion are powerful determinants of war, but in many conflicts the root cause has been and will continue to be the perception that control must be effected over stretches of land (or water) that might be dismally irrelevant to the well-being and development of inhabitants ? if any ? or in the interests of the wider population.



Such disputes can exercise lethal attraction for those in a position to direct that military action be taken to establish territorial ascendancy, and can lead to wider and disastrous conflict. There seems to be no limit to man’s appetite for confrontation, even when it is apparent that muscular bluster almost inevitably leads to the catastrophe of war.



New Delhi insists there be “Verification of Actual Ground Position Line” which is gibberish. Everyone knows to the last bunker exactly where the positions of both sides are located. And anyway this is irrelevant, because when both armies leave the region, which they should, ek dum, who cares where the bunkers were?



The region should be demilitarised, exactly as it was before Mrs Gandhi ordered her invasion, and as advocated by General Kayani. National and international surveillance systems can determine whether or not military vacation has taken place. The best solution would be third-party monitoring (which New Delhi abhors for reasons of mistaken national pride), but no matter what system is emplaced, both countries would benefit enormously from cessation of this bizarre standoff.



And if Dr Manmohan Singh and President Zardari really want to achieve a place in world history, with a joint Nobel Peace Prize, they would do well to get busy. They might even save some lives if they leave Siachen to the elements.



The writer is a South Asian affairs analyst and a former UN peacekeeper. Website is www.beecluff.com

Sorry.. But this is as stupid as it gets.. Specially after the Kargil episode in 1999....Why the hell would one country retreat from its position of strength and level the playing field...
 
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Sorry.. But this is as stupid as it gets.. Specially after the Kargil episode in 1999....Why the hell would one country retreat from its position of strength and level the playing field...

well Kargil came because of Siachin.
So the argument will never end.
Egg came first or hen?
 
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Pure strategy, we can afford spending 550Million USD per annum without any problem. This meeting will not lead to acceptance of suggestion. If PLA occupies Bilafond La or Saltoro Ridge as you say. Chinese can make way to Karakorum Highway which is Disastrous to us. Never Acceptable...
 
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One of these, as reported by The Tribune in Chandigarh (a good newspaper with excellent military sources), is that Siachen is a “high-value strategic asset” which is, to put it kindly, utter nonsense. Another piece of claptrap is the claim that “Indian Army is at the strategic heights. Once vacated, these would become vulnerable.” And the assertion that “There are nearly 11,000 men of People’s Liberation Army (PLA) in Gilgit, Baltistan and other parts of the Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Some of them are very close to the glacier” is so mind-bogglingly preposterous as to make one doubt the sanity of the person who contrived it.

Well all these claims and stories might be too stupid and ridiculous but are still good enough to fool more than a billion humans of a country. :rolleyes:
 
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Sign the dotted line..problemo solveri di
 
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Indian Defence Secretary in Pakistan for talks on Siachen
Islamabad, Jun 10 2012, (PTI):
Indian Defence Secretary Shashikant Sharma arrived in Pakistan today for crucial talks on the military standoff on the Siachen glacier against the backdrop of calls to demilitarise the world's highest battlefield following an avalanche that killed 139 people.

The two-day talks on the Siachen issue, part of the resumed dialogue process between India and Pakistan, will begin at the Defence Ministry in the garrison city of Rawalpindi tomorrow.

The Pakistani side will be led by Defence Secretary Nargis Sethi, a close confidant of Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani.

Officials said Sharma will also hold talks with Pakistan's Defence Minister Naveed Qamar, who recently took over the portfolio as part of a minor reshuffle.

Despite Pakistan Army chief Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani’s call for the resolution of issues like Siachen after an avalanche buried 139 people at a high-altitude army camp on April 7, analysts believe the two sides are unlikely to make progress in the talks on ending the standoff that began in 1984.

Ahead of the talks, Indian Defence Minister A K Antony cautioned against expecting any breakthrough at the meeting of the Defence Secretaries.

"Do not expect any dramatic announcement or decision on an issue which is very important for us, especially in the context of national security....You cannot expect a dramatic announcement from one discussion," he told reporters in New Delhi.

India has a "clear-cut position" on the Siachen issue which the Defence Secretary will explain to the Pakistani side during the talks, Antony said.

India's Cabinet Committee on Security also discussed the Siachen issue at a meeting on Thursday.

Stung by the occupation of strategic heights in the Kargil sector in 1999, India has insisted on the authentication and demarcation of current military positions along the 110-km Actual Ground Position Line on Siachen.

The move is aimed at thwarting the possible re-induction of troops by Pakistan after any possible demilitarisation of the glacier.

President Asif Ali Zardari raised the issue of demilitarising Siachen when he meet Prime Minister Manmohan Singh during a private visit to India a day after the glacier hit the Pakistan Army camp at Gyari. The avalanche raised questions in Pakistan about the troop deployment in the hazardous terrain.

Despite an extensive search involving hundreds of troops, only 13 bodies have been found so far at the site of the avalanche. Indian and Pakistani troops have been engaged in a standoff on Siachen, described as the world's highest and coldest battlefield, since 1984.

The guns have largely been silent since late 2003, when the two countries put in place a ceasefire along the frontiers in Jammu and Kashmir, and more troops have died on the glacier due to the adverse weather than combat.

Indian Defence Secretary in Pakistan for talks on Siachen
 
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well Kargil came because of Siachin.
So the argument will never end.
Egg came first or hen?

There is a difference. Once is demarcated on the ground. The other is not. Hence, one is a violation, while the other is not.

Also, the main point is the Pak Army cannot be trusted. After signing the dotted line, wait for a decade (anyway its Indian territory). See if there is any change in the Pak positions vis a vis 'all outstanding' issues. If not, do not withdraw troops.

If the Pak Army believes that our being on the heights is a sign of aggression, that is their interpretation. They are welcome to hold defensive positions.
 
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one word. don't trust pakistan.

They even back stabbed and played double games with USA after getting all the goodies.
 
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Lol they are almost like bribing noble peace prize to mms, at least it sounds as such from the article.
 
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Again repeating what I stated in other Siachen threads like a cliche - India spends $200 million USD every year while Pakistan spends $60 million USD for Siachen. Considering that Indian military returns unspent defence money back to GOI, this money is not useless as it is $60 million USD spending elsewhere denied for Pakistan as long as the Indian soldiers are not lost to nature (but DRDO has worked in this area for years and the casuality rates have gone down significantly).
 
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