LCA

[Alex]

LCA的研制历程是1983年由印度政府提出的，1988年完成任务规划，90年代初完成初始设计。2001年1月首飞，到今年12月才造出第五架样机，据称将很快正式投产。


应该说它的进度并不算慢。要知道，中国的第一种自行研制并且大规模装备的喷气式战机——歼轰七“飞豹”，1978年项目起动，1988年首飞，2000年才定型，而新歼则经历了18年的研制过程，“18岁了，终于参军了。”应该说对于中国和印度这样技术基础薄弱的国家来说，“第一代”肯定是比较难产的。一般来讲技术储备决定研制周期，技术跨度决定试飞周期。尤其是在试飞过程中，很容易暴露出重大的设计缺陷和技术障碍，导致设计修改甚至推倒重来。这一点在飞豹项目当中曾经多次上演。而对于LCA来说，我们现在对于这个项目可以说是完全不了解，光凭道听途说很难一窥全豹。它在试飞中究竟试飞了什么项目，达到了什么性能指标，遇到了什么障碍更是无从得知。但是我从这个项目简单的报道当中仍然可以看到一些东西。


首先就是这个新闻过于低调。


尽管我能够看到的报道都是转载的，但是我们仍然看到它的报道过于语焉不详，只说了它的操纵性能非常好，又说道它是“良好的飞行平台”。至于如何良好，不得而知，就算涉及机密，也可以搞几个特技动作来表现一下它良好的飞行性能吧。我觉得对于LCA这样一个对于印度来说具有时代开拓意义的项目，也是一个经历坎坷备受争议的项目，一旦获得重大突破断然没有不做大肆宣传的道理。


其次，它还有一道高坎要过。


搞过飞机的人都知道，飞机研制过程中，最具挑战性的问题不是发动机或雷达，也不是材料和加工工艺，更不是空气动力学和结构力学，而是系统工程能力。简单的说就是如何把一大堆或先进或实用，或国产或引进的设备和技术捏合成为一个整体的能力。现在我们可以看到，LAC正在向“良好的武器平台”转变，而且“在随后的18个月内，将进行各种武器和传感器的集成和测试。”也就是说，现在的LAC，武器和火控系统还没有整合进去，“传感器”指的是什么我们还不清楚，可能是指和武器搭配的指示，制导和控制设备，也可能是说一部分飞机状态监控系统也不太完善。我们很容易推断，现在的LCA的技术状态最多处于“枭龙”03号的状态，而不是04号的状态∩龙从03号到04号经过了两年。而03号本身已经是不折不扣的“良好的飞行平台”，如果不是巴方的要求较高的话，它作为武器平台也是合格的了。至于04号，它的航电和武器系统实际上都是成熟产品，这两年成飞干的工作其实也就是系统整合。那么LCA在接下来的实验中肯定将面对重大考验，搞不好还要再度回炉，对于第一次研制先进飞机的印度来说，18个月的周期无疑是很紧张的。这样的过程甚至可能要延续到LCA服役之后：在某些系统不到位的时候用替代品先服役，日后再进行升级。


第三，我们看不到LAC项目对印度整个航空工业的技术辐射作用.

我由于工作原因，长期和歼七，轰六这样的老机型打交道，但是我注意到，随着飞豹和新歼项目的进展，整个中国航空工业获得了长足的进步。正是在那些老旧机型身上，我们可以不断的看到新技术，新工艺，新设备，新武器的运用。相阵控雷达，电子化座舱，复合材料，数字化加工工艺，巡航导弹，精确制导武器，综合航电，飞火交联，救生，通信，导航，指挥，等等技术的运用，使得歼七和轰六这些经历了50年的机种焕发了新生。我们可以看到，每一个批次的歼七和轰六都有所进步，同时部队装备的飞机也在不停的进行改装。以至于现在出厂的最新飞机与十年前甚至五年前的同一型号都有巨大的飞跃。我们完全可以从歼七的改进看到歼十的进展。


那么，我们知道，印度为了维持它的庞大机群，几十年来一直在不停的生产米格21。那么他们生产的飞机水平如何呢？印度不是没有做过这方面的工作，也不是没有获得一定的成果，但是以中国的眼光来看，实在是非常有限的。20年来LAC所取得的进展为什么没有表现在印度生产的其他飞机上呢？我认为可能的原因有3 个，第一，印度自身的技术进展有限。第二，印度对引进的技术无法真正掌握。第三，印度对米格21本身吃的不透。印度90年代中期对米格21提出了改进的要求，参与竞争的有以色列和俄罗斯两种方案。而有意思的是，曾经有人把米格21的两个改进方案和中国同一时期生产的歼七放在一起进行对比，结果是中国版本无条件胜出。印度当然不愿意买比中国落后的飞机了，但是俄罗斯敢拿着比中国歼七落后得多的方案跑到印度去招摇撞骗，可见当时印度的航空工业水平如何了。而可悲的是：直到现在，不争气的印度人自己制造的米格21仍然属于无名之辈的行列。


但是从这一点我们又可以看到一个不同寻常之处：一个进行了二十年的先进项目，涉及整个航空工业的方方面面，怎么就会连一点像样的成就都没有呢？我猜想，这可能和过多的技术引进有关。当然，引进技术不是坏事，拿来主义嘛。但是拿来之后你得学啊，得研究啊，得吃透，然后转化成自己的东西啊！印度人怎么就什么都没有学到呢？难不成他们就是站在旁边看热闹？


从这一点看来，印度的LCA即使获得成功，对印度航空工业的提升也十分有限。


第四，印度对LCA的期望值与它实际的航空工业水平之间有极大的落差。


印度的航空工业水平如何，我没见过实物，也没有参观过它的工厂。不过看印度制造的米格21和美洲豹就能看到一点端倪。我前面已经说过，在印度能够制造高档产品的情况下，是完全没有理由造不出性能良好的低档产品的。LCA是什么档次？按照印度人的说法，属于第四代，还是西方标准的第四代，还要2020年都不会落后。从第二代到第四代，其中的技术跨度有多大？两道技术鸿沟！我们的飞豹是二代半，枭龙是准三代，歼十是正三代，中国用了将近30年才越过了第一道鸿沟。其中的辛酸苦辣实在不足以向外人道。我们知道LCA的大部分子系统都使用了外国技术，外国设备甚至外国设计，但是最后的系统集成和整合肯定是印度人自己做，否则干脆给LCA安一个美国番号拉倒了。尽管如此，我对印度人跨越障碍的能力仍然深表怀疑，有些东西没有做过就永远不知道，我们开始搞飞豹和歼十之前也曾经对可能面对的难题做过这样那样的猜测。结果搞起来之后才发现根本不是这么回事，很多大麻烦都是从小毛病引起的。LCA迄今为止已经经过570次试飞，说实话这样的试飞强度并不大，很多有关可靠性的问题都不一定能够暴露出来。而中国队新型飞机的测试是一个相当庞大的系统工程，我们的风洞，高空试车台，地面微波实验室，仿真测试系统都已经达到非常高的水平。就试飞而言，不仅有原型机试飞，还有小批量领先使用试飞，还有用歼八2和教八改装的技术验证机试飞——用成熟飞机改装技术验证机，可以进行比还不成熟的原型机复杂的多的试飞。可以说，中国航空工业对新型战机的测试的强度，难度，力度和广泛性都达到了相当的高度。最后，中国近几年研制的飞机都存在很大的技术交叉，很多歼十上的设备和技术，飞豹和歼七都能帮它试飞，甚至整个子系统的集成都可以在其他机种身上完成。而我们可以看到，印度是没有这种条件的，它只有一个LCA项目在进行，它的米格21和美洲豹不争气，也没看到它做这方面的工作。那么我只能看到一个选择，那就是让美国人帮它做。众所周知，1998年后印度和美国的关系一度中断，但是其后很快又再度热络起来，鉴于LCA广泛使用了美国技术，帮助印度进行全面的系统测试还是很可能的。但是要想达到“第四代”标准，美国人愿意提供的东西非常有限。


在LCA的整个项目中，我们看到了大量的从美国，英国，以色列引进的成熟技术，按理说，LCA不应受分子项目进度所累，印度方面的主要工作应该就在于机体设计和系统集成。但是从它的研制进程来说，印度在材料制造，加工工艺，空气动力学，以及系统集成能力方面存在着严重不足。从LCA2001年第一次试飞，时隔1年多之后才第二次试飞来看，它有可能在复合材料结构方面碰到了麻烦。LCA使用了过多的复合材料，是的，过多了。制造高性能的复合材料其实不难，但是复合材料的最大的弱点就是可靠性问题。从制造角度来说，基本上很难保证能够生产出质量完全一致的产品，以至于对复合材料件的性能一般都不以强度，硬度，公差来表示。而是采用一种概率性的表示方法，比如说“有90%的置信度可以达到某一强度标准”，或者“有99%的置信度可以达到某一强度标准”。于是，在复合材料设计时，经常要放大其安全裕度，也就是增加厚度，从而减少了复合材料对于金属材料的比强度优势。我们可以看到使用了大量复合材料的LCA减重效果并不明显。更要命的是，复合材料极易受损，而且难以检测——金属材料的损伤往往是裂纹，腐蚀等，大部分损伤可以目视检查，难以达到的地方可以用窥镜。但是复合材料如果发生分层，气泡等问题，在表面上是绝对看不出来的。如果仅仅是使用在飞机的表面，用一台手提式超声波验伤机就可以检查，但是如果使用在内部结构上的话，检查起来就会极其麻烦。这也是美国等材料技术先进国家在复合材料的使用上保持谨慎的根本原因。我猜测LCA的第一次试飞之后一放就是一年半的原因可能就是复合材料出现了重大损伤，从而不得不对机体结构设计推倒重来。至于现在LCA的复合材料的问题是否已经解决，我们不得而知，不过，就570次试飞而言，尚不足以验证其可靠性。

 

[A.Rahman]

translation????

 

[Cheetah786]

About Indian LCA test flight ponder
关于印度LCA试飞的思考


The LCA development course was in 1983 proposes by the Indian government, in 1988 completed the duty plan, at the beginning of the 90's completed the reference design. In January, 2001 will fly, only then composes the fifth prototype to this December, it is said that very quick officially will go into production. Should say its progress certainly does not calculate slowly. Must know that, China's first kind independently develops and the large-scale equipment jet-type fighter plane □□to annihilate the bang seven "to fly the leopard", in 1978 the project started, 1988 new years flew, in 2000 only then finalized, but newly annihilated has experienced 18 years triturating, "18 years old, have finally enlisted in the military." Should say said regarding China and the India such technology base weak country, "the first generation" definitely compares the difficult labor. Generally says the technical reserve decision development cycle, the technical span decision test flight cycle. In the test flight process, very is in particular easy to expose the significant design flaw and the technical barrier, causes the design to revise even overthrows is heavy. This point in flew in the middle of the leopard project once many times to perform. But said regarding LCA that, we now regarding this project may say is completely did not understand, the light depends on the hearsay to be very difficult as soon as to peep 全豹. Actually had it in the test flight test flight any project, achieved any performance index, has met any barrier is knew without knowing where to begin. But I still was allowed to see some things from this project simple report. First is this news too low key. Although I can see the report all is the reprint, but we still saw its report too insufficiently detailed, only said its handling quality is extremely good, also said it was "the good flying platform". As for is how good, is unknown, calculated involves the secret, also may do several acrobatic maneuvers to display its good flight performance. I thought regarding LCA such regarding India said has the time development significance the project, also is an experience roughly prepares the project which disputed, once obtains the truth which the significant breakthrough decidedly does not have not to do wantonly propagandizes. Next, it also has together Gao Kanyao. Does the airplane people all to know that, in the airplane triturating, most has the challenge question is not the engine or the radar, also is not the material and the processing craft, is not the aerodynamics and structure mechanics, but is the systems engineering ability. Simple said how is big pile either advanced or is practical, either domestically produced or the introduction equipment and the technology knead together into an overall ability. Now we may see, LAC to "good weapon platform" transformation, moreover "in the afterwards 18 months, will carry on each kind of weapon and the sensor integration and the test." In other words, present LAC, the weapon and the fire control system do not have the conformity to go in, "the sensor" refers is any we is not clear, possibly is refers to the instruction which matches with the weapon, the guidance and the control device, also possibly is said a part of aircraft statuses supervisory system not too consummates. We are very easy to infer, the present LCA technical condition is at "the owlet dragon" most much 03 conditions, but was not 04 conditions ∩ dragons passed through for two years from 03 to 04. But 03 itself already was in every sense of the term "the good flying platform", if is not Palestine's request higher, it took the weapon platform also was qualified. As for 04, its navigation electricity and the armament system all are the mature product in fact, these two year Cheng Feigan work actually also is the system conformity. Then LCA in receives in the experiment definitely will face the significant test, will not be able to do well also must remelt once again, said regarding first development advanced airplane India, 18 month-long cycles will be very intense without doubt. Such process even possibly must continue after the LCA service: Does not arrive in certain systems time first serves with the substitute, again will carry on the promotion in the future. Third, our blind LAC project to India entire aviation industry technology radiation effect I as a result of the work reason, long-term and annihilate seven, the bang six such old types have the social dealings, but I note, along with flies the leopard and newly annihilates the project the progress, the entire China aviation industry has made the considerable progress. Is precisely on these obsolete types body, we may unceasing see the new technology, new craft, new equipment, modern weapon utilization. Controls the radar, the electron cabin, the compound material, the digitized processing craft, the cruise missile, the precision guidance weapon, the comprehensive navigation electricity, flies the fire to hand over the association, the lifesaving, the correspondence, the navigation, the direction, and so on the technical utilization, caused to annihilate seven and bang six these experiences 50 years machine kind to glow the new student. We may see, each raid annihilates seven and the bang six all has progresses, simultaneously the organizational equipment airplane also in does not stop carries on the reequipment. Down to the present leaves the plant the newest airplane even five year ago identical model all has the huge leap with ten years ago. We definitely may from annihilate seven improvements to see annihilates ten progress. Then, we knew, India in order to maintain its huge airplane group, for several dozens years continuously in the production Mig which does not stop 21. Then they produce airplane level how? India is not has not done this aspect work, also is not has not obtained the certain achievement, but looked by China's judgement, is really extremely limited. For 20 year LAC obtains hasn't the progress displayed why on other airplanes which produces in India? I thought the possible reason to have 3, first, the Indian own technology progress is limited. Second, India is unable to the introduction technology truly to grasp. Third, India airtight which eats to Mig 21 itself. The Indian 90's intermediate stages 21 proposed to the Mig the improvement request, participation competes has Israeli and the Russian two kind of plans. What but is interesting, once some people annihilated the Mig 21 two improvement programs and the Chinese at the same time production seven put carry on in the same place the contrast, the result were the Chinese edition unconditionally win. India certainly was not willing to buy the airplane which fell behind compared to China, but Russia dared to take is annihilating China seven is backward than much plans to run to India mooches, obviously at that time India's aviation industry level how. What but is pitiful: Until now, did not make every effort to succeed Indian make the Mig 21 still belonged to Generation X's ranks. But we may see differently to from this point common place: Has carried on 20 year advanced projects, involves the entire aviation industry the aspects, how can link a presentable achievement all not to have? I suspected that, this is possible and the excessively many technical introduction concerns. Certainly, the introduction technology is not a misdemeanor, brings the principle. But after brings you study, the research, must have a thorough understanding, then transforms own thing! Indian what all hasn't how learned? Difficult to be inadequate they is stands looks lively? Looked like from this point, India's LCA even if obtains successfully, extremely is also limited to the India aviation industry promotion. Fourth, India has the enormous dropping variance to the LCA expected value with its actual aviation industry level between. India's aviation industry level, haven't I seen how the material object, also has not visited its factory. But looked India makes the Mig 21 and the puma can see to a clue. In front of me already had said, can make the upscale product in India in the situation, was completely does not have the reason not to be able to compose the performance good low-grade product. What scale is LCA? According to Indian's view, belongs to the fourth generation, or western standard fourth generation, but also takes in 2020 all not to be able to fall behind. From the second-generation to the fourth generation, technical span has in a big way? Two technical gaps! We fly the leopard are the second-generation half, the owlet dragon is the three generations, annihilated ten is the three generations, China uses nearly for 30 years only then to cross the together gap. Xin 酸苦 辣实 in is insufficient to the outside humanity. We knew LCA the majority of subsystems have all used the foreign technology, the foreign equipment even foreign country design, but the final system integration and the conformity definitely are Indian does, otherwise simply gave the LCA peaceful US designation to knock it off. Although so, I surmount an obstacle to the Indian the ability still expressed deeply the suspicion, some things have not done never had known, we started to do fly leopard's and annihilated in front of the tens also to the difficult problem which possibly faced have made like this such guess. After the result does only then discovered simply is not such a matter, very many big troubles all are the problem cause since childhood. LCA until now already passed through 570 times of test flights, said the truth such test flight intensity was not certainly big, very many related reliable question all not necessarily could expose. But the Chinese team new airplane test is a quite huge systems engineering, our wind tunnel, the upper air tried the chassis, the ground microwave laboratory, the simulation test system all already achieves the extremely high level. Speaking of the test flight, not only has the prototype test flight, but also has the small batch to be in the lead the use test flight, but also usefully annihilates 82 and teaches eight reequipment the technical confirmation machine test flights □□with the mature aircraft conversion technology confirmation machine, may carry on not mature prototype is also more complex than many test flights. It can be said that, the China aviation industry to the new fighter plane test intensity, the difficulty, dynamics and widespread has all achieved the suitable altitude. Finally, China develops in recent years the airplane all has the very big technology overlapping, very annihilates ten on the equipment and the technology, flies the leopard and annihilates seven all can help it the test flight, even the entire subsystem collection Chengdu may complete on other machine kind of body. But we may see, India is does not have this kind of condition, it only has L the CA project to carry on, its Mig 21 and the puma does not make every effort to succeed, also had not seen it makes this aspect the work. Then I only can see to a choice, that is lets the American help it to do. It is well known, in 1998 Further India and a US'S relational severance, but after that is very quick 热络 gets up once again, in view of the fact that LC A has widely used the American technology, helps India to carry on the comprehensive system test is very possible. But must want to achieve "the fourth generation" the standard, the American is willing to provide the thing is extremely limited. In the LCA entire project, we saw massive from US, England, the mature technology which Israel introduced, reasonably said, LCA should not receive the molecular project progress to be tired, the Indian aspect main work should lie in the body design and the system integration. But said from its development advancement that, India in the material manufacture, the processing craft, the aerodynamics, as well as the system integration ability aspect exists seriously is insufficient. From LCA2001 year first test flight, after when separates more than 1 year only then second test flight to look that, it had the possibility to bump into the trouble in the compound material structure aspect. LCA has used excessively many compound materials, yes, excessively were many. The manufacture high performance compound material is not actually difficult, but the compound material biggest weakness is the reliable question. Said from the manufacture angle that, basically is very difficult to guarantee can produce the quality completely consistent product, down to the compound material performance generally all by the intensity, degree of hardness, the common difference did not express. But uses one probability expression method, for instance said "has 90% confidence to be allowed to achieve some intensity standard", or "has 99% confidence to be allowed to achieve some intensity standard". Thereupon, when compound material design, frequently must enlarge its margin of safety, also increases thickness, thus reduced the compound material regarding the metal material specific tenacity superiority. We may see used massive compound materials LCA to reduce weight the effect not to be certainly obvious. Awfully is, the compound material is extremely easy to suffer injury, moreover examines □□the metal material damage often is a crack with difficulty, corrodes and so on, the majority of damages may the visual examination, achieve with difficulty the place may use the looking glass. But compound material if has the lamination, question and so on air bubble, is absolutely cannot look on the surface. If merely is the use in the airplane surface, may inspect with a portable-type ultrasonic wave examining wounds or injuries machine, but if uses in the internal structure, inspects can extremely trouble. This also is material technological advance country and so on US maintains the discrete basic reason at in the compound material use. After I guess the LCA first test flight as soon as put is a year half reason possibly is the compound material appeared the significant damage, thus could not but overthrow to the body structure design is heavy. As for present LCA compound material question whether already did solve, our were unknown, but, the speaking of 570 test flights, still was insufficient to confirm its reliability.

I did the best i could if there is any mistakes i applaogize.

 

[A.Rahman]

I did the best i could if there is any mistakes i applaogize.

you got it from sino-defence rite?

 

[Cheetah786]

you got it from sino-defence rite?

NO its Translation of the above article.

 

[melb4aust]

NO its Translation of the above article.

Ahaan.....:?: so you can understand chinese, bring some one over here to confirm his honesty just kidding dude:crazy2:

The article points some thing about LCA's body structure design, which seems to be a bit heavy, i quite agree with that, for Light combat aircraft i think its a bit oversized.

 

[vnomad]

The article points some thing about LCA's body structure design, which seems to be a bit heavy,

I think you might be mistaken there. The body is over 45% composite material. Composite materials besides being stronger and absorbing radar waves also are lighter than aluminium.

i quite agree with that, for Light combat aircraft i think its a bit oversized.

Its the smallest aircraft of its designation in the world. How can you call it oversized?

 

[Keysersoze]

I think it was saying that the materials are more prone to damage rather heavy in weight...
And certain composites are more prone to failure if not prepared properly.

It is kinda hard to make out what is being said (lost in translation etc etc)

Where there not issues regarding build qaulity for other indigenous projects?

 

[vnomad]

I think it was saying that the materials are more prone to damage rather heavy in weight...

More prone to damage when compared with what?

And certain composites are more prone to failure if not prepared properly.

Well I'm assuming the DRDO has prepared them decently.

 

[Keysersoze]

More prone to damage when compared with what?


Well I'm assuming the DRDO has prepared them decently.

Well (and this is just conjecture as the article is a little difficult to make head nor tail of) I am gonna say that the author of the article is saying that the particular composite is weaker (whether this is due to the manufacture or design) to comparable materials on other aircraft.


As for the assumption part.... we would covering old ground there........

 

[Bull]

The article points some thing about LCA's body structure design, which seems to be a bit heavy, i quite agree with that, for Light combat aircraft i think its a bit oversized.

You need to check that before you make a comment like that.

 

[hoodhood1]

Isn't this a smaller copy of Kfir (Israeli version of Mirage).

 

[zeus]

Isn't this a smaller copy of Kfir (Israeli version of Mirage).

some one needs to visit a Ophthalmologists