What's new

LCA LSP-3 with ELTA radar to fly today

If true than........





The first image of the AESA is from Aero India 2009, labeled as Active Electronically Scanned Phased Array for Light Combat Aircraft, have discussed in keypub forum but couldn't decide whether it is for Tejas or not. Its most probably a version of CAESAR that EADS offered for Tejas. If the radar is AESA than its most probably Indian antenna with Israeli T/R modules.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_iGO4cv1GqO0/S9JtEDTb-rI/AAAAAAAAAE8/fqVcU9YsR2I/s1600/IMG_1074.JPG

IMG_1074.JPG

Can't make out if you are saying the AESA is CAESAR bought from EADS or whether it is a Indo-Israeli collaboration?
 
Can't make out if you are saying the AESA is CAESAR bought from EADS or whether it is a Indo-Israeli collaboration?

EADS offered India a version of CAESAR radar for Tejas and the radar in the pic (from AI-2009) is most probably that radar. Now there is minimum chance of the radar to be onboard Tejas LSP-3. As many news sources mentioned the radar is Israeli-Indian collaboration and if it is AESA, than it must be EL/M-2052 with Indian inputs. But until now we think it is EL/M-2032 with Indian inputs. Waiting for clarification.
 
EADS offered India a version of CAESAR radar for Tejas and the radar in the pic (from AI-2009) is most probably that radar. Now there is minimum chance of the radar to be onboard Tejas LSP-3. As many news sources mentioned the radar is Israeli-Indian collaboration and if it is AESA, than it must be EL/M-2052 with Indian inputs. But until now we think it is EL/M-2032 with Indian inputs. Waiting for clarification.

the specs of EL/M-2032 i know (read)

Wat are the specs of EL/M-2052 ???
 
the specs of EL/M-2032 i know (read)

Wat are the specs of EL/M-2052 ???

Its an advanced radar developed by Elta (IAI, Israel). It is a fully solid state AESA with more than 1500 T/R modules! It can track 64 targets at a time, different modes (air-to-air, air-to-surface, air-to-sea, SAR etc) can operate simultaneously and suitable for LCA, Su-30, Mirage-2K, Mig-29...

Don't know about electronic attack (EA) capabilities but if it is there than it will be as capable as CAESAR and PAK FA's radar.

 
Last edited:
Its an advanced radar developed by Elta (IAI, Israel). It is a fully solid state AESA with more than 1500 T/R modules! It can track 64 targets at a time, different modes (air-to-air, air-to-surface, air-to-sea, SAR etc) can operate simultaneously and suitable for LCA, Su-30, Mirage-2K, Mig-29...

Don't know about electronic attack (EA) capabilities but if it is there than it will be as capable as CAESAR and PAK FA's radar.

1500 modules is meant for size of nose of SU30 .
LCA's nose can at max accommodate 700 modules , not more than that. That too on a 650 mm antennae (same as MMR).
I think ELTA's brochure says Modules can vary acc to size of aircraft.

http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/files/4/36834.pdf
 
1500 modules is meant for size of nose of SU30 .
LCA's nose can at max accommodate 700 modules , not more than that. That too on a 650 mm antennae (same as MMR).
I think ELTA's brochure says Modules can vary acc to size of aircraft.

http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/files/4/36834.pdf

Though the radar has 1500+ T/R modules it can fit on Tejas. Reffering to the previous image of CAESAR offered for Tejas which also has ~1500 T/R modules. Its depends on the size of the radar not just T/R modules.

EL/M-2052 is not that huge radar in terms of size.... compare it with Tejas's MMR...

EL/M-2052
elm2052aesa.jpg


Tejas's MMR
DSC05295-795470.JPG

mainphpg2viewcorenx9.jpg


Tejas
lca-tejas-7.jpg
 
Its not about putting TR modules alone.

you need to accommodate antennae+every subsystem in that size ,
means if you are putting 1500 module on 650 mm antennae ( size of MMR) you require to put that many wave-shifters and cooling mechanism within that cranked space.
When you have RF signal of 1500 module , you need that much more sub-array portioning and choreography . In effect that much more powerful COTS processor .
We all know how much amplifiers and esp GA-AS chips generate heat , biggest drawback of current AESA is only this.

Now SAAB overcame this by putting less modules but moving the antennae mechanically beyond 60 degrees in Azimuth to cover more area.

Thales corp is trying with GA-Nitride chips in place of regular GA- Arsenide to have less heating issues.

That is why even Fighters of size of
F18 (APG79 have 1100 modules)
Rafale has close to 1000
Mig 35 earlier ZHUK-AE model had 700 ( Zhuk- MFAE to get 1100 in future)
Eurofighter ( VIXEN 1000 will have 1000 module)
Our fav Gripen has (Vixen 600 module)
Only Raptor has more than 1800-2000
Pak-FA is suppose to have 1400-1500 only.

Same reason why IBRIS and BARS even though not Actively beam steering radar , still have range and performance better than all AESA radar at this moment .( except APG-77 which has close to 2000)
 
Last edited:
Its not about putting TR modules alone.

you need to accommodate antennae+every subsystem in that size ,
means if you are putting 1500 module on 650 mm antennae ( size of MMR) you require to put that many wave-shifters and cooling mechanism within that cranked space.
When you have RF signal of 1500 module , you need that much more sub-array portioning and choreography . In effect that much more powerful COTS processor .
Yes but AESA radars are developed with modular design concepts. That mean you have specific space for every component. If the number of individual T/R modules and radiating elements does not increase gradually that means beyond 2000 you don't need larger beamformer, exciter, receiver or cooling mechanism. Building blocks are same, technologies are different. Power, cooler and calibration are some complexities but they don't cause problem until certain limits.

About radar computer RC (processor), its not usually COTS but developed by DRDO itself and DRDO is the best in this area. We have our own RC for MKI's Bars radar as well as LCA's radar. DRDO already developed beam steering computer for other projects.

For exampple look at typical AESA radar configuration for figher aircrafts... note the cooling package, power supply and LRUs....



It mainly depends on technologies. Look at the nose cone length of F-22 and F-18E/F, F-18E has longer nose cone than F-22 that means it can have larger number of T/R modules but in reality APG-79 has around ~1100 while APG-77 has nearly ~2000 T/R modules, still F-22 can accommodate APG-77.

We all know how much amplifiers and esp GA-AS chips generate heat , biggest drawback of current AESA is only this.

Now SAAB overcame this by putting less modules but moving the antennae mechanically beyond 60 degrees in Azimuth to cover more area.

Thales corp is trying with GA-Nitride chips in place of regular GA- Arsenide to have less heating issues.

Heat is not the only reason for putting less number of but size of MMIC components (mainly built with GaAs, SiGe, SiC, GaN) and costs. More number of T/R modules you can put on your array or radiating elements keeping the radiating power in mind its better for you. But everyone cannot just do that. Heating is a issues usually taken care with controlled radiation, low-peak power.

That is why even Fighters of size of
F18 (APG79 have 1100 modules)
Rafale has close to 1000
Mig 35 earlier ZHUK-AE model had 700 ( Zhuk- MFAE to get 1100 in future)
Eurofighter ( VIXEN 1000 will have 1000 module)
Our fav Gripen has (Vixen 600 module)
Only Raptor has more than 1800-2000
Pak-FA is suppose to have 1400-1500 only.

Same reason why IBRIS and BARS even though not Actively beam steering radar , still have range and performance better than all AESA radar at this moment .( except APG-77 which has close to 2000)
F-22 is not huge wrt F-18 or Eurofighter than how it's APG-77 managed to get nearly 2000 T/R modules, much more than others? Because it depends on technology.

AESA doesn't mean increased range. It depends on number of T/R modules, power per module and transmit duty. IBRIS and BARS as powerful and large PESA radars have medium to high peak power resulting high duty for a passive radar. For example 1000 elements PESA needs 10 kW of power while 1000 elements AESA radar needs 0.5 kW of average power resulting higher radiation of power from PESA. So IBRIS or BARS need much more power to be good but still don't have features like LPI, high transmit duty and reliability.

Here is combined packages of LCA's PD radar and CAESAR AESA radar including all components... cooler, wave shifter, BSC etc....

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_DOqSTiSBP3U/S56a8A3dtlI/AAAAAAAAAfk/Mesf5TQPC9U/s400/7.jpg

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/35321-1/IMG_1074.JPG

They barely different in over all size.
 
some problem with posting, may be my Blackberry is playing trick.
I will do it later
 
For exampple look at typical AESA radar configuration for figher aircrafts... note the cooling package, power supply and LRUs....

Now the pic you are showing is F111 , it is a huge size nose .

here it is
Damaged-F-111-5994415.jpg


But Size is limiting factor in case of LCA it will allow only 600-650 mm antennae.

It mainly depends on technologies. Look at the nose cone length of F-22 and F-18E/F, F-18E has longer nose cone than F-22 that means it can have larger number of T/R modules but in reality APG-79 has around ~1100 while APG-77 has nearly ~2000 T/R modules, still F-22 can accommodate APG-77.

No its not , length is not factor .
How much size you antennae is depends on height that is Circular space in case of circular or oval radar / in case of rectangular its height (antennae are not flat they stand vertical).
Secondly if you notice Radar antennae is kept in inclined position to allow minimal return and LPI mode
somewhat like this -
2vdfyih.jpg

Means you need better space than length.
Same reason why NIIR-Phaztron officials moved Radar back in nose Mig35 to get more space to fit bigger antennae and more module .


F-22 is not huge wrt F-18 or Eurofighter than how it's APG-77 managed to get nearly 2000 T/R modules, much more than others? Because it depends on technology.

No there is
f22_1.jpg



For example 1000 elements PESA needs 10 kW of power while 1000 elements AESA radar needs 0.5 kW of average power resulting higher radiation of power from PESA. So IBRIS or BARS need much more power to be good but still don't have features like LPI, high transmit duty and reliability.

I cant understand what you meant by elements in PESA .
The power in PESA case is by TWT tubes , Bars has 2 TWT tubes and IBRIS has 4 TWT tubes.

In case of PESA wave-shifters are placed before signal reaches the Transmitter unit so already Power reaching is quite less .
Additionally when Radar is not transmitting , it only works as receiver for that time and power generation is minimum.

While in AESA the the Transmitter unit is itself Power source so less loss of power and cooling is required to control that power surge and then it reaches the wave-shifters which further controls it.
And even if its receiving many modules will still be transmitting
 
Yes but AESA radars are developed with modular design concepts. That mean you have specific space for every component. If the number of individual T/R modules and radiating elements does not increase gradually that means beyond 2000 you don't need larger beamformer, exciter, receiver or cooling mechanism. Building blocks are same, technologies are different. Power, cooler and calibration are some complexities but they don't cause problem until certain limits.

But in case of LCA jump is substantial .
In only 650 mm you are trying to pack 1500 modules . That is huge
Just calculate the avg power rating for half beam , 750 modules multiply by 5 (since ELTA-2052 specs are not known assuming 5 RF element in each array), keeping 50% as duty cycle , each RF unit having 1 KW as peak power. Even if duty cycle of that module is worse then also Power is quite high for this area.

Forget half beam just for 2 array you have 2.5.1 equal to 10 KW power and if duty cycle is 50% you have 5 KW avg power consistently .
To spread this heat you at least require how much area??
Just to give an idea 900 mm antennae of Mig35 has 1100 module meaning for circular area of pi multiply R2 ( r being 900/2).
While ELTA is rectangular so L*B area , calculate and see how much size you will need.
 
Last edited:
I have a noob question.

Is LCA MK-II supposed to have Thrust Vectoring ?

I read somewhere that the Kaveri engine is being designed with TV.

The EJ200 also has TV.

Will TV possibly give Tejas any significant advantages ?
 
A small correction here. The 650mm is only stated to be the diameter of MMR antenna array,but not the actual nose/radome inner diameter.

MMR being a mechanically scanned keeps itself safe from the radome inner lining.A considerable space is left between the antenna array and radome.Whereas the same is not justified with AESA antenna array.Hence it is highly possible for a thought that the hypothetical AESA antenna array might be more than 650mm diameter.

And when ,one is talking about the number of elements populated, they are strictly considering ones capabilities in the design and development of an MMIC. If company A can pull up with an X sq mm area,then B company might comeup with (X-5)sqmm area.Also populating the modules depends on the design philosphy one follows.Its all about that layout to get optimal number while satifying the cooling needs.

There is no yard stick kind of measurement in bringing up number of T/R modules.

Also regarding the Indian AESA developement, MMR was superseeded with AESA program after the sucessful flight test of an co-developed MMR with Israel.
AESA( radar for Tejas) development was supossedly started atleast 3 years back alongside AEWACS project. The only issues they had with the radar were known to be the overheating due to excess density of modules.
Avatar said:
I have a noob question.

Is LCA MK-II supposed to have Thrust Vectoring ?

I read somewhere that the Kaveri engine is being designed with TV.

The EJ200 also has TV.

Will TV possibly give Tejas any significant advantages ?
Thrust vectoring is not an requirement for LCA,only optional.

EADS wants to bring its TVC along with its engine,while GE is not.
EADS claims a fuel saving of 25%.

GRTE kaveri normally comes out with con-di nozzle,while there were plans of adding a TVC instead but not solid.
Russians are willing to offer TVC at any moment.

A TVC on Tejas certainly bring advantages in terms of controlling and fuel savings.It needs more modification to its FBW to allow this new TVC,which again will consume time.Tejas MKII has most likely chances of seeing a TVC onboard as EJ200 is considered as the most likely winner.
 
But in case of LCA jump is substantial .
In only 650 mm you are trying to pack 1500 modules . That is huge
Just calculate the avg power rating for half beam , 750 modules multiply by 5 (since ELTA-2052 specs are not known assuming 5 RF element in each array), keeping 50% as duty cycle , each RF unit having 1 KW as peak power. Even if duty cycle of that module is worse then also Power is quite high for this area.

Forget half beam just for 2 array you have 2.5.1 equal to 10 KW power and if duty cycle is 50% you have 5 KW avg power consistently .
To spread this heat you at least require how much area??
Just to give an idea 900 mm antennae of Mig35 has 1100 module meaning for circular area of pi multiply R2 ( r being 900/2).
While ELTA is rectangular so L*B area , calculate and see how much size you will need.

WOW!!!!! Do they teach RADAR TECHNOLOGY in army medical science colleges? :what::what::what:

:toast_sign:
 

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom