Ladakh: No 'Deal' was Struck with China

[Joe Shearer]

Hey @Joe Shearer, is there someone very close to your heart serving in one of the three forces ?? I am startled at your lack of faith in our forces, are you afraid of loss of life ??

War's are emotional to an extent and I will always put Sovereignty of India ahead of my life. Vande Matram.

I have family members in all three services, and friends and schoolmates.

It is for their sake that I hate the thought of needless death, in a lost cause. This is not a battle to be fought, not on these battlefields, not with the military in its present state, not with the infrastructure as abysmal as it is now.

I hate the kind of person who cheers from the sidelines while people die.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Of course, it's not over, no one thinks it's over too.

Nothing is over yet; not on the Northern Border. It is an unfinished business and an unsettled matter for over 4 decades. So it is not going away yet. There will be move, counter-move and a great deal of posturing on both sides. But a 'shooting war'?

 

[illusion8]

Nothing is over yet; not on the Northern Border. It is an unfinished business and an unsettled matter for over 4 decades. So it is not going away yet. There will be move, counter-move and a great deal of posturing on both sides. But a 'shooting war'?

Things might get ugly, 200 or more incursions till date this year - someone might decide to shoot - could have got ugly this time around too - if it wasn't for MMS.

 

[Srinivas]

Difficult to understand, for the following reasons.

Does pointing out that the Army does not have to fight to a predetermined defeat amount to advocating cowardice? Which fool will knowingly want his country's defenders to die needlessly?

Check out your post number #72

How you are pleading IA to agree to the Chinese deal, isn't it worth a plea considering Chinese did a dumb incursion at worst possible time, just before the visit of Chinese PM ???

Every Armed forces have their deficiencies and its won problems before going to war, point here a invading force to defending force ration should be higher than 3:1 but IA is matching man to man in count to the chinese.

Failed in the chess move? How? They seem to have put the border matter back on the front burner, which seems to have been their only intention.

Why the Chinese came now at this moment when they are having problems all over SCS and war like situation in East Sea??

Let me clarify

Chinese at Ladakh are in disadvantageous position, the permanent posts and Advanced Landing ground(at more than 16000 ft constructed on hilly terrain where it is possible for landing and take off) can directly monitor the Karkhoram High way.

This Karkoram high way is a vital one to Xinjiang and Tibet.

So they are protesting the construction of permanent post, which is illegitimate considering that this is well within India's border, as a result they made an incursion first they came upto the permanent post but ITBP warned them and drove them so they have settled in 19 km inside Indian territory(chinese and Indian territories merge here if we consider India and China maps).

In response India also set up tents 300 m from chinese tents and the rest we all know.

They came here to express their concerns about Indian build up but left empty handed with out any assurances, what do you call this move??

1) CCP has lost its stand
2) It will also wake up India and consider Indo-Japanese relations more seriously
3) Chinese goods will be taxed heavily in order to deny them Indian market, which will be loss in Billions annually for China.
4) India also said it is going to raise mountain divisions and force level with 84000 crores.

What Chinese gained

1) Enmity and Suspicion with India at worst possible time considering that SCS and East sea disputes are in full swing, US and Japan are threatening war if Chinese land on senkakus.

2) There is a chance for India-Japan-USA strategic cooperation which is a night mare scenario for them

Got thrashed like sh!T? Not a single shot was fired. What famous victory have you imagined?

They came with a banner saying this is Chinese territory with war drums and went like cats with tails under their legs with out uttering a single word.

Until now Chinese never stepped back in SCS and East sea now that the went back in Himalayas, they got thrashed like sh!t and this will give some encouraging news to countries facing China.

Pointing out the realities of the situation is a thousand times better than the empty-headed jingoism that has been on display.

Reality is Chinese realized the big picture and current situation,went back.

Again, you need to look up the records. The incoming PLA built roads as it came in, when it had to. The Indian Army gains nothing by not building infrastructure; it only loses the possibility of building up material stocks,

There was just as little, in fact, even less infrastructure, in 1962. That did not noticeably deny any space to any enemy.

In 1962 the initial thrust was successful because less number of force levels of IA and poor equipment, When India regrouped to counter Chinese they thought they cannot hold on to the territory they gained because of poor logistics and went back.

They still cry about Arunachal, why not they took that by then??

The landing facilities are not in the hills; they are in the plains. It is difficult to explain how guerrillas dropped, or airlifted to the plains will help in case of war.

Advanced landing grounds can be constructed on hilly terrain like the one constructed in Ladakh.

Only a school child who gains his military knowledge from talk shows and from mysterious, undefined sources can come out with such utter, blethering nonsense.

Non of your concern.... right!!!

Debate with facts and do not worry about my knowledge, are we trying to play a physiological game here ??

 

[Capt.Popeye]

And here comes the savior of India advocating cowardice to IA,even after Chinese have failed in the Chess move and got thrashed like sh!T.
That guy has the tendency to take the enemy side and downplay Indians.

Point here is simple the infrastructure was not built so that the invading force cannot hold on to Guerrilla attacks.

This tactic is called denying the space for enemy.

I have seen in lot of talk shows in which senior generals emphasizing this point.

India only built landing facilities to move these guerillas in case of war and also bought Antonov aircraft for that.

Dude; your knowledge of Military Matters is quite abysmal, a little bit of 'cut-paste' information from here and there on the internet (it is apparent that you have not read any books) or attempting to (mis)interpret what some guy on TV is saying, cannot be passed off as strategising.

Another thing that strikes me about you and your ilk is that the closest that you came to soldiering is playing with toy guns from Hasbro not very long ago. And you think that war-fighting is simply moving some tin soldiers across the floor.

Most of all; you are not even aware of the basic dictum of warfare: fight in an area of your advantage and at a time of your advantage.
Neither is to the IA's advantage now.
Or for that matter the PLA's advantage either.
Which is simply why the shooting did'nt start.

And if you choose to believe that war-fighting just consists of bellowing at the top of one's voice; then you may be destined to be the greatest General of all time.

Things might get ugly, 200 or more incursions till date this year - someone might decide to shoot - could have got ugly this time around too - if it wasn't for MMS.

Its not as simple as that. Even to start a shooting war. Both the adversaries here have well formed and defined Command and Control Systems. Little scope for renegade Generals to act like cowboys unlike the other side.

 

[Srinivas]

Dude; your knowledge of Military Matters is quite abysmal, a little bit of 'cut-paste' information from here and there on the internet (it is apparent that you have not read any books) or attempting to (mis)interpret what some guy on TV is saying, cannot be passed off as strategising.

Just point out the strategic deficiencies in my view and then talk, simple statements are not enough.

Another thing that strikes me about you and your ilk is that the closest that you came to soldiering is playing with toy guns from Hasbro not very long ago. And you think that war-fighting is simply moving some tin soldiers across the floor.

Non sense and not worth replying.

Most of all; you are not even aware of the basic dictum of warfare: fight in an area of your advantage and at a time of your advantage.
Neither is to the IA's advantage now.
Or for that matter the PLA's advantage either.
Which is simply why the shooting did'nt start.

Contradicting yourself You are saying India is at disadvantage and Chinese are also at disadvantage, what is the point your are making here??

And when did I say that IA has to start shooting Chinese in ladakh.

And if you choose to believe that war-fighting just consists of bellowing at the top of one's voice; then you may be destined to be the greatest General of all time.

Counter my arguments not empty statements, I may not have presented my arguments in proper order but that does that mean my argument is not correct.

If your are that much a strategist then counter my arguments, if not better keep quite.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Just point out the strategic deficiencies in my view and then talk, simple statements are not enough.



Non sense and not worth replying.



Contradicting yourself You are saying India is at disadvantage and Chinese are also at disadvantage, what is the point your are making here??

And when did I say that IA has to start shooting Chinese in ladakh.



Counter my arguments not empty statements, I may not have presented my arguments in proper order but that does that mean my argument is not correct.

If your are that much a strategist then counter my arguments, if not better keep quite.

I do waste my time so easily on trivia which gets thrown up off and on.
But I have discussed the IA's study of the 1962 ops as studied in DSSC with Joe and CardSharp earlier here.

 

[Speeder 2]

..., man this is the first time I heard an invading army using Guerilla warfare tactics

Well, Interpol used to have a name for it:

Intenational Terrorism

 

[Speeder 2]

...Guerrilla Warfare...

Hey genius, if you google up “Albert Einstein, General Relativity Theory, Mao Tse Dong, Modern Guerrilla Warfare”, perhaps, with some divine assistance hopefully, you might have inspiration to connect the dots one day in the unforeseeable future.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Does pointing out that the Army does not have to fight to a predetermined defeat amount to advocating cowardice? Which fool will knowingly want his country's defenders to die needlessly?

Check out your post number #72

How you are pleading IA to agree to the Chinese deal, isn't it worth a plea considering Chinese did a dumb incursion at worst possible time, just before the visit of Chinese PM ???

Every Armed forces have their deficiencies and its won problems before going to war, point here a invading force to defending force ration should be higher than 3:1 but IA is matching man to man in count to the chinese.

Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/250579-ladakh-no-deal-struck-china-13.html#ixzz2SYBJAPIW

You still think that it was a straightforward confrontation, the PLA wanted to be aggressive, the IA stood up manfully to their bullying tactics, and the PLA scampered off like a little puppy dog?

I thought you were stupid, I don't realise how stupid.

The Chinese didn't think that there would be a shooting . They were conveying a message, just the way they did in 62. Only last time, we didn't get it. This time, we got it, and agreed to a mutual withdrawal.

Now that we know that they're seriously annoyed, and have come to a deal with them, the matter is back on the front burner. And we are going to be extra inoffensive, exactly when they need us to be extra inoffensive.

It's simple. Except to the stupid.

 

[Armstrong]

Now that we know that they're seriously annoyed, and have come to a deal with them, the matter is back on the front burner. And we are going to be extra inoffensive, exactly when they need us to be extra inoffensive.

It's simple. Except to the stupid.

Surely the Indian Civilian & Bureaucratic Executive are more than mindful of this, indeed if it is a correct assessment to begin with ! Shouldn't they then look for some sort of leverage instead of falling in line as I presume your post alludes to ?

 

[Joe Shearer]

I've come across stupid and ignorant before, but this takes the cake. Never before have I encountered someone so totally ill-informed about his own side as well as about other sides. This was interesting, then the interest dropped and it became merely amusing. But now, it is neither interesting nor amusing, it is just boring.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I have great respect and loyalty for the Indian Army. Its counter-insurgency doctrine and practice is among the best in the world, close behind what the South Africans were, and what the British achieved earlier in the middle of the 20th century, in Cyprus, Aden, Malaysia and Borneo.

What this organised, hierarchically structured Army cannot do is to become a guerrilla army. It can provide excellent special forces troops, it is not, and never will be a guerrilla army.

Sir I think we have got to the crux of your argument and I think this was lost before. Of course the IA aren't a "guerilla army" this would be an illogical assertation. It is a million man conventional army .However it does have a number of well trained units who are proficient in such warfare and these aren't just SFs many infantry units. Of course it is not feasible to have the entire IA as a guerrilla army as the most serious if India's threats are conventional and require conventional military tactics.


The example of the UK in Cyprus and Malysian is rather moot as these were relatively small armies who could quite easily be oriented for guerilla/CI ops and had to be given their small size. The IA has no such restrictions they can have only part f their force trained in such warfare but in real terms this is many tens, if not, hundreds of thousands of men. Talking specifically about the UK army, after the late 20th century they became far more conventional and have now almost complety lost all the relevant skills and training and are now rather inept at any CI/guerilla conflict they are thrust into.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Surely the Indian Civilian & Bureaucratic Executive are more than mindful of this, indeed if it is a correct assessment to begin with ! Shouldn't they then look for some sort of leverage instead of falling in line as I presume your post alludes to ?

...except for the small detail that we have no kind of leverage over them.

 

[Armstrong]

...except for the small detail that we have no kind of leverage over them.

Perhaps not in the Military sphere of things but economically & politically India is both an emerging economy & with it a State with an exponentially higher nuisance value in the International Arena than it enjoyed but a decade ago. Shouldn't then the lure of a potentially quite lucrative market due to its huge population with their income levels on the rise coupled with India implying, through actions, a categorical 'No' in being a part of any potential Anti-China or Counter-China nexus & with a genuine desire to see greater economic integration, people-to-people interaction & an exploitation of each others basic & advanced factors to accrue competitive advantage to their respective economies as a viable block, be enough to appeal to the rationality of the Chinese to solve the border issues in an amicable way instead of through a position of aggressive assertiveness.