Lack of aggression from Pakistan?

[Counter-Errorist]

Sun Tzu in his famous Art of War says, “In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity.” The scope of this article is to examine as to why Pakistan’s responses to chaos within and around Hindutva led India - particularly concerning the purely self-defensive measures of China in Ladakh - seem listless and vapid and various opportunities, apparently, have been allowed to slip through.

Don't cherry-pick popular Sun Tzu sayings without context. If you actually read his writing, he repeatedly drills-in the importance of patience and right timing. All PDF armchair generals wanted war ever since revocation of article 370. We instead worked to get friends, support and standing to get us to the current situation where India is trapped, red-faced, and friendless.

We have successfully done what India has been claiming to do us - isolated, surrounded and internally fractured. This didn't happen overnight, nor with us idling our thumbs angrily staring across the border. Our diplomatic machinery working persistently has effectively turned India's "allies" that it had gained by throwing its economical clout around - GCC, Iran, Afghanistan, and even to a certain extent, Nepal. Even traditional Indian allies like Russia, Israel and France are not coming in to help, other than taking advantage of the situation to sell more weapons.

Our intelligence agencies have been actively chipping away at India's internal unity, institutions and morale, while at the same time fighting them on our own land.

Our military has been constantly countering every hardware, strategy and defenses they procure.

We are already winning the war.

 

[masterchief_mirza]

Some sort of limited CFL action is required. Hit the filth. Keep them dancing like cats on a hot tin roof.

That said, the game remains medium-long term. I'd say, get Bd into the Chinese axis once Hasina has finally gone. Pakistan, Nepal, China and Bangladesh is the necessary alliance to force the collapse of the false state of India. As the OP points out himself, it may never be as simple as "liberate Kashmir" because mainland India will never accept this loss and will always use proxies to attack Pakistan.

It's not even about "looking like an aggressor or not" because the west will hate us whatever we do. They can tolerate us though, unlike hindutva, with whom our battle is existential. We weren't supposed to exist. It's more about ensuring a local alliance is in place because nobody elsewhere will back us. With a local economic and political safety net, we can do what needs to be done.

And let's be clear, India needs to be deconstructed. Wresting Kashmir from them today will not eliminate the threat to Pakistan from India and its proxies.

@Mangus Ortus Novem knows what I'm talking about.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

Lack of aggression from Pakistan?

Sun Tzu in his famous Art of War says, “In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity.” The scope of this article is to examine as to why Pakistan’s responses to chaos within and around Hindutva led India - particularly concerning the purely self-defensive measures of China in Ladakh - seem listless and vapid and various opportunities, apparently, have been allowed to slip through.

Many fellow Pakistanis would disagree and quite rightly point out reasonable factors prohibiting Pakistan to take a more vigorous military approach. Some might even suggest a clandestine operation is already underway. Furthermore, a section might also argue that Pakistani involvement could portray India as a victim.

It is immaterial whether you agree with the title of this article or disagree with it. The question is hasn’t India done the same in the past against Pakistan? Why should anything obstruct Pakistan to simply return the favour? Just a reminder, at every point of time, India has used every opportunity to erase Pakistan’s existence. After failing to stop Pakistan’s creation and even failing to strangle it in infancy, India invaded, Junagarh while Pakistan was having problems with Khan of Kalat. It again invaded Kashmir when Pakistan was overwhelmed with countless refugees from Jammu fleeing massacre. Hyderabad’s invasion, days after Mr. Jinnah’s death, is a prime example. Again India in 1950 set out to “Liquidate” the young Pakistan as Afghanistan was conducting military raids inside Pakistani territory. 1950-54 was possibly the most dangerous period of Pakistani history. Consequently, Pakistan had no choice, but to go for SEATO and CENTO. (A reply to absolute vacuous minded imbeciles who vociferously criticize Pakistan of being a US lackey).

In the 60s, constant raids in Azad Kashmir and East Pakistan continued while Pakistan was once again engaged by militants from Afghanistan in KP and Balochistan with complete support from the Afghan govt. It’s futile to mention the 70s. In the 80s the same trend continued, while Pakistani ruler was needlessly busy in internal affairs, Siachen was invaded. In the 90s, the sectarian monster was fully used by India again. Pakistan did reply in its very limited capacity. From 2000s, when Pakistan became involved in another Afghan war, despite President Musharaff’s peace overtures, ethnic and religious extremist insurgencies were fanned directly by India and its continuing. Even today, India has made its belligerent intentions abundantly clear.

The point of this reasoning which some enthusiasts might find boring, is simple. Pakistan has never responded proportionally to India’s interferences. Even today, when Pakistan boasts a large and formidable military machine, its passivity is glaring to many. Why hasn’t the establishment in Islamabad, taken complete advantage of the recent Ladakh crisis by engaging India’s border troops or at least supporting armed struggle in Occupied Kashmir? Why is that, even today dissidents from North Eastern Indian states who are more closely related to China, not being hosted or even contacted by Pakistan such as in Manipur, Tripura and Nagaland? This is the time to bring out the dissident and oppressed voices as India’s nuclear as well as conventional deterrence has been cracked wide open by China.

India’s perceived pre-eminence in South Asia is shattered which gives way to smaller powers to open up. Has Pakistan made any effort to let us say arm the Nepalese establishment?

The reasons of this inhibition to engage India seem more out of a cautious approach. It could be that Pakistan establishment fears destabilization and its unintended consequences. Perhaps, in their calculus, India could setup a two front war with the help of Afghanistan and owing to a debilitated economic situation, this could have negative ramifications for Pakistan. Another plausible reason could be the backlash feared from the international power players and its effects on the FATF saga.

These factors have their genuine supporters and carry weight; however, the gravity of the situation in the region demands a more aggressive approach against India. It is paramount that Pakistan roils up India’s federation. North East is one of the prime candidates. If Kashmir’s support is viewed as abetting terrorism by international players –who care nothing about Pakistan’s interests- Indian occupied North East could be an alternative target. North Easterners practically live in a highly discriminating colonial Indian polity. China’s victory can prove to be the impetus they need to acquire freedom. Similarly, Naxalites must also be provided complete assistance. Their exploits in central eastern India warrant attention and help. Pakistan must view the entire India as a battle space. At this point of time. Pakistani establishment do not need to be even creative, they just to need emulate the Indian template of war philosophy which the Hindutva establishment has followed against Pakistan since the beginning. Even now there is a reasonable chance of an Indian misadventure.

For Pakistanis it is imperative to understand, this is India’s 2011 moment. Pakistan faced a similar demoralizing effect after US raid on Abbottabad. India took complete advantage and the subsequent terror attacks are proof. Hence, in one’s opinion it is incumbent on Pakistan’s establishment to avenge the blood of Pakistan’s innocent people who were and are being directly attacked by Hindutva led India. Power matrix in South Asia is undergoing change as the fascist Hindu empire is vulnerable, it is up to Pakistan if they want to keep it this way

Let me honest, Pakistani government and army used to think that they can beat to Indian army and grab the lands till 1970s.

They also tried but actually failed.

Then, accepted the reality and change the way of fight in 1980s after Soviet withdrew from Afghanistan.

And believed me, your army knows better than you! And the same reason, they never tried or trying by forcefully.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Let me honest, Pakistani government and army used to think that they can beat to Indian army and grab the lands till 1970s.

They also tried but actually failed.

Then, accepted the reality and change the way of fight in 1980s after Soviet withdrew from Afghanistan.

And believed me, your army knows better than you! And the same reason, they never tried or trying by forcefully.

Last week you gave the same reason as to why China would NEVER attack india or indian troops............

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Lack of aggression from Pakistan?

Sun Tzu in his famous Art of War says, “In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity.” The scope of this article is to examine as to why Pakistan’s responses to chaos within and around Hindutva led India - particularly concerning the purely self-defensive measures of China in Ladakh - seem listless and vapid and various opportunities, apparently, have been allowed to slip through.

Many fellow Pakistanis would disagree and quite rightly point out reasonable factors prohibiting Pakistan to take a more vigorous military approach. Some might even suggest a clandestine operation is already underway. Furthermore, a section might also argue that Pakistani involvement could portray India as a victim.

It is immaterial whether you agree with the title of this article or disagree with it. The question is hasn’t India done the same in the past against Pakistan? Why should anything obstruct Pakistan to simply return the favour? Just a reminder, at every point of time, India has used every opportunity to erase Pakistan’s existence. After failing to stop Pakistan’s creation and even failing to strangle it in infancy, India invaded, Junagarh while Pakistan was having problems with Khan of Kalat. It again invaded Kashmir when Pakistan was overwhelmed with countless refugees from Jammu fleeing massacre. Hyderabad’s invasion, days after Mr. Jinnah’s death, is a prime example. Again India in 1950 set out to “Liquidate” the young Pakistan as Afghanistan was conducting military raids inside Pakistani territory. 1950-54 was possibly the most dangerous period of Pakistani history. Consequently, Pakistan had no choice, but to go for SEATO and CENTO. (A reply to absolute vacuous minded imbeciles who vociferously criticize Pakistan of being a US lackey).

In the 60s, constant raids in Azad Kashmir and East Pakistan continued while Pakistan was once again engaged by militants from Afghanistan in KP and Balochistan with complete support from the Afghan govt. It’s futile to mention the 70s. In the 80s the same trend continued, while Pakistani ruler was needlessly busy in internal affairs, Siachen was invaded. In the 90s, the sectarian monster was fully used by India again. Pakistan did reply in its very limited capacity. From 2000s, when Pakistan became involved in another Afghan war, despite President Musharaff’s peace overtures, ethnic and religious extremist insurgencies were fanned directly by India and its continuing. Even today, India has made its belligerent intentions abundantly clear.

The point of this reasoning which some enthusiasts might find boring, is simple. Pakistan has never responded proportionally to India’s interferences. Even today, when Pakistan boasts a large and formidable military machine, its passivity is glaring to many. Why hasn’t the establishment in Islamabad, taken complete advantage of the recent Ladakh crisis by engaging India’s border troops or at least supporting armed struggle in Occupied Kashmir? Why is that, even today dissidents from North Eastern Indian states who are more closely related to China, not being hosted or even contacted by Pakistan such as in Manipur, Tripura and Nagaland? This is the time to bring out the dissident and oppressed voices as India’s nuclear as well as conventional deterrence has been cracked wide open by China.

India’s perceived pre-eminence in South Asia is shattered which gives way to smaller powers to open up. Has Pakistan made any effort to let us say arm the Nepalese establishment?

The reasons of this inhibition to engage India seem more out of a cautious approach. It could be that Pakistan establishment fears destabilization and its unintended consequences. Perhaps, in their calculus, India could setup a two front war with the help of Afghanistan and owing to a debilitated economic situation, this could have negative ramifications for Pakistan. Another plausible reason could be the backlash feared from the international power players and its effects on the FATF saga.

These factors have their genuine supporters and carry weight; however, the gravity of the situation in the region demands a more aggressive approach against India. It is paramount that Pakistan roils up India’s federation. North East is one of the prime candidates. If Kashmir’s support is viewed as abetting terrorism by international players –who care nothing about Pakistan’s interests- Indian occupied North East could be an alternative target. North Easterners practically live in a highly discriminating colonial Indian polity. China’s victory can prove to be the impetus they need to acquire freedom. Similarly, Naxalites must also be provided complete assistance. Their exploits in central eastern India warrant attention and help. Pakistan must view the entire India as a battle space. At this point of time. Pakistani establishment do not need to be even creative, they just to need emulate the Indian template of war philosophy which the Hindutva establishment has followed against Pakistan since the beginning. Even now there is a reasonable chance of an Indian misadventure.

For Pakistanis it is imperative to understand, this is India’s 2011 moment. Pakistan faced a similar demoralizing effect after US raid on Abbottabad. India took complete advantage and the subsequent terror attacks are proof. Hence, in one’s opinion it is incumbent on Pakistan’s establishment to avenge the blood of Pakistan’s innocent people who were and are being directly attacked by Hindutva led India. Power matrix in South Asia is undergoing change as the fascist Hindu empire is vulnerable, it is up to Pakistan if they want to keep it this way

Pakistani society has become galvanized as a reult of 27 Feb, victory in Afghanistan, ally Turkish victories in Syria and Libya, and now ally China's victory in Ladakh.

All around Pakistan, a new paradigm is being established, but Pakistan leadership refuses to change.

Complacency, fear of the unknown, and foreign pressure have completely neutered us, even when all the correct pieces are in their right places.

We have begun to love dunya too much. We live on foreign imported luxuries while we hardly make any profitable exports to balance it out. We are exporting raw materials without proper value additions.

This state is in no shape for war, but the winds of change have come. It is a now or never kind of a moment.

I am not saying to attack India, but we desperately need to militarize our society. We need to prepare for the next war which is coming.

Right now our social and political malaise need to be rectified, Pakistan needs a cultural and religious revolution of thought and practice. Our society needs to be brought together and our divisions need to be ironed out.

Last week you gave the same reason as to why China would NEVER attack india or indian troops............

Indians always pass off their wishes as reality.

Pakistan will strike, in tangent with China, at just the right moment.

It is coming.

 

[KhanBaba2]

In the 60s, constant raids in Azad Kashmir and East Pakistan continued while Pakistan was once again engaged by militants from Afghanistan in KP and Balochistan with complete support from the Afghan govt.

Links to that please.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

Last week you gave the same reason as to why China would NEVER attack india or indian troops............

Did you read the Chinese statements?

It was a border stand off and after around 45 years such incidents happened.

Most of the Pakistani, does not know anything about china and India border status but saying India lost land to China.

Really, nothing happened as such as. And, I told that India and India will never fight a war against each other and also china will never fight for Pakistan or get direct involved between India and Pakistan war.

Read the Chinese statements! They are blaming to India only...

 

[maverick1977]

what defeatist mindset of Pakistanis blog members on this forum.. half of the battle is lost when there is no will to fight.. you guys disgust me..

 

[Counter-Errorist]

It's not even about "looking like an aggressor or not" because the west will hate us whatever we do.

Right, we seriously need to stop placating western opinion on everything. No matter what we do, they will still find something to try and embarrass us with. Our value system inherently will not match theirs - we need to accept that and double-down on it.

The west is happy to be friends with KSA, India, Egypt and Israel with incompatible value systems. Only as long as their interests are common.

 

[maverick1977]

For someone to think like that he needs to be a visionary but unfortunately visionaries are discouraged from the very start and taught to tow the line. If the person doesn't he is perceived as a threat and prevented from coming further.
Besides 1 in hand is better then 2 in the bush

very well said .. i was just thinking few min ago watching kurulus osman series, how ertugural brothers mouths are full and have no will to take on the conspirators ..

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Did you read the Chinese statements?

It was a border stand off and after around 45 years such incidents happened.

Most of the Pakistani, does not know anything about china and India border status but saying India lost land to China.

Really, nothing happened as such as. And, I told that India and India will never fight a war against each other and also china will never fight for Pakistan or get direct involved between India and Pakistan war.

Read the Chinese statements! They are blaming to India only...

You also claimed on another thread that you had evidence that over 40 Chinese soldiers were killed by the indian army. You never gave that evidence.

PS What statements are you talking about? If what what you say is true then remember to post the links here.

 

[fitpOsitive]

Lack of aggression from Pakistan?

Sun Tzu in his famous Art of War says, “In the midst of chaos, there is also opportunity.” The scope of this article is to examine as to why Pakistan’s responses to chaos within and around Hindutva led India - particularly concerning the purely self-defensive measures of China in Ladakh - seem listless and vapid and various opportunities, apparently, have been allowed to slip through.

Many fellow Pakistanis would disagree and quite rightly point out reasonable factors prohibiting Pakistan to take a more vigorous military approach. Some might even suggest a clandestine operation is already underway. Furthermore, a section might also argue that Pakistani involvement could portray India as a victim.

It is immaterial whether you agree with the title of this article or disagree with it. The question is hasn’t India done the same in the past against Pakistan? Why should anything obstruct Pakistan to simply return the favour? Just a reminder, at every point of time, India has used every opportunity to erase Pakistan’s existence. After failing to stop Pakistan’s creation and even failing to strangle it in infancy, India invaded, Junagarh while Pakistan was having problems with Khan of Kalat. It again invaded Kashmir when Pakistan was overwhelmed with countless refugees from Jammu fleeing massacre. Hyderabad’s invasion, days after Mr. Jinnah’s death, is a prime example. Again India in 1950 set out to “Liquidate” the young Pakistan as Afghanistan was conducting military raids inside Pakistani territory. 1950-54 was possibly the most dangerous period of Pakistani history. Consequently, Pakistan had no choice, but to go for SEATO and CENTO. (A reply to absolute vacuous minded imbeciles who vociferously criticize Pakistan of being a US lackey).

In the 60s, constant raids in Azad Kashmir and East Pakistan continued while Pakistan was once again engaged by militants from Afghanistan in KP and Balochistan with complete support from the Afghan govt. It’s futile to mention the 70s. In the 80s the same trend continued, while Pakistani ruler was needlessly busy in internal affairs, Siachen was invaded. In the 90s, the sectarian monster was fully used by India again. Pakistan did reply in its very limited capacity. From 2000s, when Pakistan became involved in another Afghan war, despite President Musharaff’s peace overtures, ethnic and religious extremist insurgencies were fanned directly by India and its continuing. Even today, India has made its belligerent intentions abundantly clear.

The point of this reasoning which some enthusiasts might find boring, is simple. Pakistan has never responded proportionally to India’s interferences. Even today, when Pakistan boasts a large and formidable military machine, its passivity is glaring to many. Why hasn’t the establishment in Islamabad, taken complete advantage of the recent Ladakh crisis by engaging India’s border troops or at least supporting armed struggle in Occupied Kashmir? Why is that, even today dissidents from North Eastern Indian states who are more closely related to China, not being hosted or even contacted by Pakistan such as in Manipur, Tripura and Nagaland? This is the time to bring out the dissident and oppressed voices as India’s nuclear as well as conventional deterrence has been cracked wide open by China.

India’s perceived pre-eminence in South Asia is shattered which gives way to smaller powers to open up. Has Pakistan made any effort to let us say arm the Nepalese establishment?

The reasons of this inhibition to engage India seem more out of a cautious approach. It could be that Pakistan establishment fears destabilization and its unintended consequences. Perhaps, in their calculus, India could setup a two front war with the help of Afghanistan and owing to a debilitated economic situation, this could have negative ramifications for Pakistan. Another plausible reason could be the backlash feared from the international power players and its effects on the FATF saga.

These factors have their genuine supporters and carry weight; however, the gravity of the situation in the region demands a more aggressive approach against India. It is paramount that Pakistan roils up India’s federation. North East is one of the prime candidates. If Kashmir’s support is viewed as abetting terrorism by international players –who care nothing about Pakistan’s interests- Indian occupied North East could be an alternative target. North Easterners practically live in a highly discriminating colonial Indian polity. China’s victory can prove to be the impetus they need to acquire freedom. Similarly, Naxalites must also be provided complete assistance. Their exploits in central eastern India warrant attention and help. Pakistan must view the entire India as a battle space. At this point of time. Pakistani establishment do not need to be even creative, they just to need emulate the Indian template of war philosophy which the Hindutva establishment has followed against Pakistan since the beginning. Even now there is a reasonable chance of an Indian misadventure.

For Pakistanis it is imperative to understand, this is India’s 2011 moment. Pakistan faced a similar demoralizing effect after US raid on Abbottabad. India took complete advantage and the subsequent terror attacks are proof. Hence, in one’s opinion it is incumbent on Pakistan’s establishment to avenge the blood of Pakistan’s innocent people who were and are being directly attacked by Hindutva led India. Power matrix in South Asia is undergoing change as the fascist Hindu empire is vulnerable, it is up to Pakistan if they want to keep it this way

To be honest, we are afraid of consequences.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

We can't be seen as aggrssors. India has to be seen as agressor then we can finish the war.

Pakistan is blessed with the ability to wait it out. We don't have to attack now, but our people need to start preparing.

India does not have that luxury, they are fighting against the clock and against a mountain of issues which threaten the heart of their nation. They are desparate for war, because as time goes by, they are growing weaker and we are gaining strength.

Kashmir theater is unfit for proxies at the moment, as Indians are clamping down hard, so time to explore NE India, South India, Sikh Punjab, Hyderabad, and UP.

Use Indian doctrine against them. Work on influencing Maldives back to our camp, Sri Lanka as well, and establish some cooperation with BD.

Next, work on irregular forces. Recruit from KP, AJK, Punjab, etc. This is the one advantage where Pakistan excels. If we use the Qabaili Lashkars and Afghan battle-hardened volunteer Mujahideen, we could bleed out Indian forces very quickly. Even every Islamic organization should be furnishing these kinds of soldiers for Pakistan military just in case, similar to what Jamat e Islami did during 27 Feb.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Pakistani society has become galvanized as a reult of 27 Feb, victory in Afghanistan, ally Turkish victories in Syria and Libya, and now ally China's victory in Ladakh.

All around Pakistan, a new paradigm is being established, but Pakistan leadership refuses to change.

Complacency, fear of the unknown, and foreign pressure have completely neutered us, even when all the correct pieces are in their right places.

We have begun to love dunya too much. We live on foreign imported luxuries while we hardly make any profitable exports to balance it out. We are exporting raw materials without proper value additions.

This state is in no shape for war, but the winds of change have come. It is a now or never kind of a moment.

I am not saying to attack India, but we desperately need to militarize our society. We need to prepare for the next war which is coming.

Right now our social and political malaise need to be rectified, Pakistan needs a cultural and religious revolution of thought and practice. Our society needs to be brought together and our divisions need to be ironed out.





Indians always pass off their wishes as reality.

Pakistan will strike, in tangent with China, at just the right moment.

It is coming.

It's becoming ridiculous now. I used to find it hilarious when I used to rip indian arguments apart, but not any more. There is so much extreme propaganda, lies and disinformation peddled by the indians that it is beyond a joke. IF PDF is to remain a viable international defence forum, then the MODs need to do something about it.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Right, we seriously need to stop placating western opinion on everything. No matter what we do, they will still find something to try and embarrass us with. Our value system inherently will not match theirs - we need to accept that and double-down on it.

The west is happy to be friends with KSA, India, Egypt and Israel with incompatible value systems. Only as long as their interests are common.

FATF went after Kashmiri mujahideen because that is one advantage Pakistan hold over India. They know Mujahideen will make the difference in the end and absorb fighters from Occupied Kashmir in case of war.

We should start pushing our weight similar to our military power, just as China, Turkey, and İran do. I mean even India does the same.

Pakistan behaves like a much weaker nation than it is, hence even small states like Iran and Kabul regime get an idea that they can fight us.