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Kingdom of Saudi Arabia : The new MMSC Ships deal

This is not the concept discussed so far with SA. This is:
Surface_Navy_Association_SNA_2016_Picture_057.jpg

http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...rigate-in-royal-saudi-navy-configuration.html
https://news.usni.org/2016/05/18/new-saudi-frigate-design-details-emerge

lcs_lockheed.jpg

A Lockheed Martin concept for variations of the Freedom-class LCS design from corvette to Frigate sized hulls.
All equipped with ESSM, not SM2
https://news.usni.org/2015/10/20/sa...-martin-freedom-class-variants-in-11-25b-deal
 
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This is not the concept discussed so far with SA. This is:
Surface_Navy_Association_SNA_2016_Picture_057.jpg

http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...rigate-in-royal-saudi-navy-configuration.html
https://news.usni.org/2016/05/18/new-saudi-frigate-design-details-emerge

lcs_lockheed.jpg

A Lockheed Martin concept for variations of the Freedom-class LCS design from corvette to Frigate sized hulls.
All equipped with ESSM, not SM2
https://news.usni.org/2015/10/20/sa...-martin-freedom-class-variants-in-11-25b-deal

please read post #26.. didn't we hear a new deal for $6 billion in Trumps visit to KSA? The $11.5 billion deal was shelved.. and now a new deal has been signed, and we do not know about neither the specs nor the weapons..
 
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please read post #26.. didn't we hear a new deal for $6 billion in Trumps visit to KSA? The $11.5 billion deal was shelved.. and now a new deal has been signed, and we do not know about neither the specs nor the weapons..
Are you seriously suggesting that the amount of the deal would be halved AND the ships upgraded to the 4 Mk41, AN/SPY-1F with 2 AN/SPG-62 fit? Why do you think there was a Saudi version to begin with (as opposed to just choosing the largest of the 3 MMCS versions offered by LMCO)?
 
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Are you seriously suggesting that the amount of the deal would be halved AND the ships upgraded to the 4 Mk41, AN/SPY-1F with 2 AN/SPG-62 fit? Why do you think there was a Saudi version to begin with (as opposed to just choosing the largest of the 3 MMCS versions offered by LMCO)?

Well maybe, it is still $1.5 billion per ship!
 
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Well maybe, it is still $1.5 billion per ship!
No, it is not. You arrive at that by deviding the total value of a deal (which includes far more than just the four ships and the ship systems, irrespective of whether that deal is 11.25 billion or 6 billion) by four. And that's wrong (or rather: misleading)

LCS
" The cheaper (one-fourth the cost of a destroyer) and more numerous LCS" [Note: Ddg51 unit cost = US$1.843 billion for DDG 114–116, FY2011/12 > one fourth is US$ 461 million]
The average per-ship target price for Lockheed ships is $362 million, Navy acquisition chief Sean Stackley said, with a goal of $352 million for each Austal USA ships
Navy acquisition chief Sean Stackley testified to a Senate panel that the actual price range was $440 to $460 million.
The US Navy budgeted $490 million for each lead ship while the Congressional Budget Office projected a cost of $591 million for each ship.
FY2010 budget documents revealed that the actual total costs of the two lead ships for each LCS class was $637 million for Freedom and $704 million for Independence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littoral_combat_ship

SSC
The uparmed Small Surface Combattant (SSC) will cost $60–$75 million more than a Flight 0 LCS
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littoral_combat_ship

MMCS/LCS-i (Freedom class based)
" In early 2004, the Israeli Navy announced that it was formulating a requirement for two new Multi-mission
Combat Ships (MMCS) with an option on a third. The total program cost was estimated at $1.4 billion, $500
million each for the first pair of ships and $400 million for the third. "
https://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/disp_pdf.cfm?DACH_RECNO=779
Israel's Littoral Combat Ship Program (LCS-I)
http://defense-update.com/newscast/1107/news/141107_lcsi.htm

Worst case it is $600-700 million per ship (still crazy money but, hey, one does not HAVE to buy US: see Israel and Saar6 > 4 boats from Germany: The volume of the transaction aka construction cost is estimated at approximately 430 million euros and Germany has agreed to fund €115 million of this total, or about 108 million per hull, although I expect this is without the cost of Israeli equipment to be installed)
http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...a100-corvettes-for-israeli-navy-unveiled.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa'ar_6-class_corvette
 
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No, it is not. You arrive at that by deviding the total value of a deal (which includes far more than just the four ships and the ship systems, irrespective of whether that deal is 11.25 billion or 6 billion) by four. And that's wrong (or rather: misleading)

LCS
" The cheaper (one-fourth the cost of a destroyer) and more numerous LCS" [Note: Ddg51 unit cost = US$1.843 billion for DDG 114–116, FY2011/12 > one fourth is US$ 461 million]
The average per-ship target price for Lockheed ships is $362 million, Navy acquisition chief Sean Stackley said, with a goal of $352 million for each Austal USA ships
Navy acquisition chief Sean Stackley testified to a Senate panel that the actual price range was $440 to $460 million.
The US Navy budgeted $490 million for each lead ship while the Congressional Budget Office projected a cost of $591 million for each ship.
FY2010 budget documents revealed that the actual total costs of the two lead ships for each LCS class was $637 million for Freedom and $704 million for Independence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littoral_combat_ship

SSC
The uparmed Small Surface Combattant (SSC) will cost $60–$75 million more than a Flight 0 LCS
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littoral_combat_ship

MMCS/LCS-i (Freedom class based)
" In early 2004, the Israeli Navy announced that it was formulating a requirement for two new Multi-mission
Combat Ships (MMCS) with an option on a third. The total program cost was estimated at $1.4 billion, $500
million each for the first pair of ships and $400 million for the third. "
https://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/disp_pdf.cfm?DACH_RECNO=779
Israel's Littoral Combat Ship Program (LCS-I)
http://defense-update.com/newscast/1107/news/141107_lcsi.htm

Worst case it is $600-700 million per ship (still crazy money but, hey, one does not HAVE to buy US: see Israel and Saar6 > 4 boats from Germany: The volume of the transaction aka construction cost is estimated at approximately 430 million euros and Germany has agreed to fund €115 million of this total, or about 108 million per hull, although I expect this is without the cost of Israeli equipment to be installed)
http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...a100-corvettes-for-israeli-navy-unveiled.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa'ar_6-class_corvette

The old deal of $11.5 billion had a$4.5 billion for support, training and spare parts, so the ships were already costing around $6.5 billion for four, that is the price of the DDG-51!?
 
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The old deal of $11.5 billion had a$4.5 billion for support, training and spare parts, so the ships were already costing around $6.5 billion for four, that is the price of the DDG-51!?
Really? Where exactly does it say so?

Are you suggesting the complete support package was dropped?
  • study, design and construction of operations; support and training facilities; spare and repair parts; support and test equipment;
  • publications and technical documentation; personnel training and training equipment; U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistics support services; and other related elements of logistical and program support.
  • In addition, this case will provide overarching program office support for the SNEP II to include: U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistics support, and other related elements of program support to meet necessities for program execution.
What is says is "The estimated value of MDE is $4.3 billion. The total estimated cost is $11.25 billion."
MDE = Major Defence Equipment = Any item of Significant Military Equipment (SME) on the U.S. Munitions List having a nonrecurring research and development cost of more than $50 million or a total production cost of more than $200 million.
http://www.samm.dsca.mil/glossary/major-defense-equipment-mde
http://samm.dsca.mil/search/node/mde congressional notification threshold
This basically means of $11.25 billion "only" 4.3 billion is 'the real serious stuff' such as a frigate

Besides, if you look at the original announcement, have you noticed that the Saudi's get 5 of most key items, rather than 4 (i.e. they order 1 spare). For example: COMBATSS-21 Combat Management Systems, TRS-4D Radars, UPX-29 IFF, Compact Low Frequency Active Passive Variable Depth Sonar, AN/SWG-l (V) Harpoon Ship Command Launch Control System, MK-15 Mod 31 SeaRAM Close-In Weapon System (CIWS), MK-75 76mm OTO Melara Gun System.

There also is a list of items that aren't quantified:
  • Selective Availability Anti-Spoofing Module (SAASM) Global Positioning System/Precise Positioning Service (GPS/PPS) navigation equipment
  • Also included in this sale in support of the MMSC are: communications equipment employing Link 16 equipment; Fire Control System/Ceros 200 Sensor and Illuminator; 20mm Narwhal Gun; Nixie AN/SLQ-25A Surface Ship Torpedo Defense System; MK-32 Surface Vessel Torpedo Tubes; WBR-2000 Electronic Support Measure and Threat Warning System; Automatic Launch of Expendables (ALEX) Chaff and Decoy-Launching System; ARC-210 Radios; Combined Enterprise Regional Information Exchange System (CENTRIXS); Automated Digital Network System;
At least some items will see the pattern of ordering 5 items (4 on the ships, 1 spare) repeating.Since systems tend to contribute more to total cost than 'steel' does, that's almost like ordering a 5th ship.

Moreover, the deal also includes a great deal of ordnance, beyond the warload that these ships carry. E.g.:
Five-hundred thirty-two (532) tactical RIM-162 Evolved Sea Sparrow Missiles (ESSM) (one hundred twenty-eight (128) installed, twenty (20) test and training rounds, three hundred eighty-four (384) spares). This suggest each vessel will come with 32 ESSM (i.e. 8 Mk41 cells worth) as base load, and the remaining 384 missiles are counted as spares. We know these ships each have 2x8-cells worth of Mk 411 {after all it reads: Eight (8) MK-41 Vertical Launch Systems (VLS) (two (2) eight-cell assemblies per ship for 16 cells per hull)}. So, apparently they don't get a full load of 2x8x4=64 per vessel on delivery. But even if you take that 4x64=256 missiles as base warload, there still are 20 test- and training round plus 256 spare rounds.
There will be four MK-15 Mod 31 SeaRAM Close-In Weapon System (CIWS) installed. With 11 rounds in the launcher, 4 ships take 44 missiles. But the order is one-hundred eighty-eight (188) RIM 116C Block II Rolling Airframe Missiles (RAM) (forty-four (44) installed, twelve (12) test and training rounds, one hundred thirty-two (132) spares).
Let's consider the value of these spares:
  • Unit cost ESSM: US$1.447m (FY2014). So, x256 makes about US$370 million (and 384 would make US$556 million!).
  • Unit cost US$998,000 (FY2014). So, x132 makes US$132million
So that's between US$502 million and US$688 million in spare missiles alone. Or US$ 125-172 million per ship.
And there is other "ordnance" in the deal.

If you factor that in, and work from that US$4.3 billion, you end up fairly close to the unit cost of the initial 2 LCSs (FY2010 budget documents revealed that the actual total costs of the two lead ships for each LCS class was $637 million for Freedom and $704 million for Independence.).

DSCA is pulling various deals together now
http://www.dsca.mil/news-media/news...ded-sales-saudi-arabia-foreign-military-sales
 
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Really? Where exactly does it say so?

Are you suggesting the complete support package was dropped?
  • study, design and construction of operations; support and training facilities; spare and repair parts; support and test equipment;
  • publications and technical documentation; personnel training and training equipment; U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistics support services; and other related elements of logistical and program support.
  • In addition, this case will provide overarching program office support for the SNEP II to include: U.S. Government and contractor engineering, technical and logistics support, and other related elements of program support to meet necessities for program execution.
What is says is "The estimated value of MDE is $4.3 billion. The total estimated cost is $11.25 billion."
MDE = Major Defence Equipment = Any item of Significant Military Equipment (SME) on the U.S. Munitions List having a nonrecurring research and development cost of more than $50 million or a total production cost of more than $200 million.
http://www.samm.dsca.mil/glossary/major-defense-equipment-mde
http://samm.dsca.mil/search/node/mde congressional notification threshold
This basically means of $11.25 billion "only" 4.3 billion is 'the real serious stuff' such as a frigate

Besides, if you look at the original announcement, have you noticed that the Saudi's get 5 of most key items, rather than 4 (i.e. they order 1 spare). For example: COMBATSS-21 Combat Management Systems, TRS-4D Radars, UPX-29 IFF, Compact Low Frequency Active Passive Variable Depth Sonar, AN/SWG-l (V) Harpoon Ship Command Launch Control System, MK-15 Mod 31 SeaRAM Close-In Weapon System (CIWS), MK-75 76mm OTO Melara Gun System.

There also is a list of items that aren't quantified:
  • Selective Availability Anti-Spoofing Module (SAASM) Global Positioning System/Precise Positioning Service (GPS/PPS) navigation equipment
  • Also included in this sale in support of the MMSC are: communications equipment employing Link 16 equipment; Fire Control System/Ceros 200 Sensor and Illuminator; 20mm Narwhal Gun; Nixie AN/SLQ-25A Surface Ship Torpedo Defense System; MK-32 Surface Vessel Torpedo Tubes; WBR-2000 Electronic Support Measure and Threat Warning System; Automatic Launch of Expendables (ALEX) Chaff and Decoy-Launching System; ARC-210 Radios; Combined Enterprise Regional Information Exchange System (CENTRIXS); Automated Digital Network System;
At least some items will see the pattern of ordering 5 items (4 on the ships, 1 spare) repeating.Since systems tend to contribute more to total cost than 'steel' does, that's almost like ordering a 5th ship.

Moreover, the deal also includes a great deal of ordnance, beyond the warload that these ships carry. E.g.:
Five-hundred thirty-two (532) tactical RIM-162 Evolved Sea Sparrow Missiles (ESSM) (one hundred twenty-eight (128) installed, twenty (20) test and training rounds, three hundred eighty-four (384) spares). This suggest each vessel will come with 32 ESSM (i.e. 8 Mk41 cells worth) as base load, and the remaining 384 missiles are counted as spares. We know these ships each have 2x8-cells worth of Mk 411 {after all it reads: Eight (8) MK-41 Vertical Launch Systems (VLS) (two (2) eight-cell assemblies per ship for 16 cells per hull)}. So, apparently they don't get a full load of 2x8x4=64 per vessel on delivery. But even if you take that 4x64=256 missiles as base warload, there still are 20 test- and training round plus 256 spare rounds.
There will be four MK-15 Mod 31 SeaRAM Close-In Weapon System (CIWS) installed. With 11 rounds in the launcher, 4 ships take 44 missiles. But the order is one-hundred eighty-eight (188) RIM 116C Block II Rolling Airframe Missiles (RAM) (forty-four (44) installed, twelve (12) test and training rounds, one hundred thirty-two (132) spares).
Let's consider the value of these spares:
  • Unit cost ESSM: US$1.447m (FY2014). So, x256 makes about US$370 million (and 384 would make US$556 million!).
  • Unit cost US$998,000 (FY2014). So, x132 makes US$132million
So that's between US$502 million and US$688 million in spare missiles alone. Or US$ 125-172 million per ship.
And there is other "ordnance" in the deal.

If you factor that in, and work from that US$4.3 billion, you end up fairly close to the unit cost of the initial 2 LCSs (FY2010 budget documents revealed that the actual total costs of the two lead ships for each LCS class was $637 million for Freedom and $704 million for Independence.).

DSCA is pulling various deals together now
http://www.dsca.mil/news-media/news...ded-sales-saudi-arabia-foreign-military-sales
Ddg51 unit cost = US$1.843 (It is from your previous post # 35), So I thought they may be getting something close to but smaller than the DDG-51!

The whole deal is still a bit confusing, since they made it mandatory to have ToT with any weapon deal, the price should have increased for over the previously announced $11.5 billion, but no, instead it was actually halved !!!?
 
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Ddg51 unit cost = US$1.843 (It is from your previous post # 35), So I thought they may be getting something close to but smaller than the DDG-51!
The remark about LCS costing 1/4th of a Burke is attributable to Adm. John Richardson who became as Chief of Naval Operations in fall of 2015.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_M._Richardson_(admiral)
"But you can buy four LCS for the price of one Arleigh Burke, and when sub-hunting you want to be looking in as many places as possible at once."
In this artice: http://breakingdefense.com/2016/01/lcs-can-too-fight-russia-china-navy-leaders/

The whole deal is still a bit confusing, since they made it mandatory to have ToT with any weapon deal, the price should have increased for over the previously announced $11.5 billion, but no, instead it was actually halved !!!?
ToT? With these ships? Highly unlikely. All reports I see at USNI speak of BUYING. There is no mention of building these ships locally (which is where ToT would occur), also not in the DSCA notification.

http://dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/kingdom-saudi-arabia-multi-mission-surface-combatant-mmsc-ships

The four LCS variants will likely serve as the primary combatant for the fleet in addition to six other corvettes for which the Saudi Navy has issued LoRs.
In the past the Saudis have inquired about platforms as large as the Arleigh Burke-class guided missile destroyers (DDG-51) complete with the Aegis Combat System, AN/SPY-1D air search radar and the ability to field Raytheon Standard Missiles 2 (SM-2).
Instead of the larger 9,000-ton Burkes, the U.S. has steered the Saudis to less-tonnage LCS variants capable of fielding SM-2s and smaller versions of the SPY-1.
“What kind of requirement do they really need given all the other things that they have and have aspirations for and their ability to man the ship and fight the ship?” Dale P. Bennett, executive vice president of Lockheed Martin’s Mission Systems and Training (MST), told USNI News in February.
“The requirements have been moving around, [It’s been] let’s go to a DDG-51 for awhile, [then] let’s go back to an LCS.”
https://news.usni.org/2015/09/15/re...al-combat-ship-as-part-of-20b-fleet-expansion

We're now down to a non-AEGIS version. And I'm sure they are also down-negotiating the services and construction of shore facilities.
 
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Saudi Arabia Set for $6B Lockheed Martin Frigate Deal as Part of Massive $110B U.S. Arms Sale

May 19, 2017 3:52 PM • Updated: May 19, 2017 5:41 PM



Artist’s concept of a Lockheed Martin Multi-Mission Surface Combatant. US Navy



Saudi Arabia is set to pull the trigger on a $6-billion deal to purchase four Lockheed Martin-built frigates based on the company’s Freedom-class Littoral Combat Ship, as part of a major Foreign Military Sales case, USNI News has learned.


The deal – part of the overall $110-billion FMS case – is intended to be announced during President Donald Trump’s visit to Riyadh on Saturday, administration sources confirmed to USNI News on Friday.

The purchase of the four frigates for the Royal Saudi Navy is set to be the centerpiece of a refresh of the country’s Eastern Fleet as part of the Saudi Naval Expansion Program II. SNEP II has been in the works for more than a decade and is estimated to cost a total of $20 billion.

Representatives with Lockheed Martin declined to comment on the sale.
“Foreign Military Sales are government-to-government decisions, and the status of any potential discussions can be best addressed by the U.S. government,” a spokesman told USNI News.

In addition to the hulls, the $6-billion will include spares, training and other logistics items for the program.


Last year, USNI News reported on the details of the proposed configuration of the Saudi Freedom-variant.



The primary difference between the Freedom-class and the Saudi-variant is the lack of modular mission space found in the U.S. version of the Littoral Combat Ship.



The frigate will be built around an 8-cell Mk-41 vertical launch system and a 4D air search radar. At about 4,000-tons, the frigate can field a crew of 100 to 130. It runs on a power plant of two Rolls Royce MT-30 gas turbines and two Colt-Pielstick diesel engines. The ship will field eight RGM-84 Harpoon Block II anti-ship missiles (ASM), anti-submarine warfare (ASW) sonar suites, and torpedoes.



“This acquisition will enhance the stability and maritime security in the sea areas around the Arabian Peninsula and support strategic objectives of the United States,” read the notification. “The proposed sale will provide Saudi Arabia with an increased ability to meet current and future maritime threats from enemy weapon systems. The Multi-Mission Surface Combatant ships will provide protection-in-depth for critical industrial infrastructure and for the sea lines of communication,” reads a U.S. State Department notification for a $11.25 billion foreign military sales case


Saudi Arabia initially “balked at the price tag for the [four ship] package – thought to be more than $3 billion but less than $4 billion – and were unhappy with the time it would take to complete detail design of the ships, carry out systems integration, build the vessels, deliver them and install infrastructure improvements in the kingdom,” reported Defense News.


https://news.usni.org/2017/05/19/sa...frigate-deals-part-massive-110b-u-s-arms-sale
 
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Saudi Arabia initially “balked at the price tag for the [four ship] package – thought to be more than $3 billion but less than $4 billion – and were unhappy with the time it would take to complete detail design of the ships, carry out systems integration, build the vessels, deliver them and install infrastructure improvements in the kingdom,” reported Defense News.

https://news.usni.org/2017/05/19/sa...frigate-deals-part-massive-110b-u-s-arms-sale
1. Per ship that is: US$750 million - US$1000 million
2. So, less than US$4billion for 4. That works out pretty much in line with US$4.3 billion in MDE minus a) spare key items and b) spare missile rounds and other spare ordnance. If you take the amount and divide by 4.5 ships (0.5 added, due to spare key items) and subtract the value of spare missiles (between US$502 million and US$688 million total), that makes US$956 million - US$ 125 to 172 million = US$784 to 831 million per ship. If you take US$4.3 billion and divide by 5, you get US$860 billion per ship. IMHO, the former method is more accurate an estimate (closer to what US paid for the initial pair of LCS ships)

Build and deliver > no ToT
Besides various services (training, maintenance, etc) and spares (parts rather than ordnance/or rounds), adding or modifying infrastructure is a big ticket item, involving lots of money (and possibility of involving local industry).
 
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1. Per ship that is: US$750 million - US$1000 million
2. So, less than US$4billion for 4. That works out pretty much in line with US$4.3 billion in MDE minus a) spare key items and b) spare missile rounds and other spare ordnance. If you take the amount and divide by 4.5 ships (0.5 added, due to spare key items) and subtract the value of spare missiles (between US$502 million and US$688 million total), that makes US$956 million - US$ 125 to 172 million = US$784 to 831 million per ship. If you take US$4.3 billion and divide by 5, you get US$860 billion per ship. IMHO, the former method is more accurate an estimate (closer to what US paid for the initial pair of LCS ships)

Build and deliver > no ToT
Besides various services (training, maintenance, etc) and spares (parts rather than ordnance/or rounds), adding or modifying infrastructure is a big ticket item, involving lots of money (and possibility of involving local industry).

What do you make of this?
In addition to the hulls, the $6-billion will include spares, training and other logistics items for the program.
 
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What do you make of this?
In addition to the hulls, the $6-billion will include spares, training and other logistics items for the program.
A support package of about 6-4.3= US$1.7 (not including spare missiles and ordnance - which we lumped in with that 4.3 billion in MDE - but rather spare parts, services, infrastructure modification and the rest)
 
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A support package of about 6-4.3= US$1.7 (not including spare missiles and ordnance - which we lumped in with that 4.3 billion in MDE - but rather spare parts, services, infrastructure modification and the rest)
I mean the Hulls..were is the radars, the vls and other equipments, are they to be purchased separately?
 
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