KFX/IFX News and Development

[Indos]

First off, thanks again for detailed information from Indonesia that is hard to get as a non-Indonesian. It surely enables me to consider these matters from other perspective.

Talking about the technical involvement of Indonesian engineers, my source - and presumably other Koreans citing such information in other websites - are from multiple KAI and ADD insiders. What we are being told is that the team of Indonesian engineers are working almost completely separate from the Korean-LM TAC design team and are assigned to specific calculations and problem solving for limited field of research, which I suspect are structural and subsonic aerodynamics analysis.

Then again here you are giving a way more detailed and credible sources, so there is a noticeable amount of possibility of myself standing corrected and in fact Indonesian engineers could be contributing for wider field of engineering such as aircraft production or system integration.

Still there are questions to be asked. Yes, Indonesia does have a longer history of designing and producing an aircraft domestically but it was not a high-agility supersonic aircraft that Indonesia was busy with. Arguably Korea would eventually have more experience regarding such. You yourself are mentioning that there was a discontinuation of generational transition of expertise during the 2000s, which I presume would be able to be traced back to the Asian financial crisis in the late 90s.

So Korea has more experience in designing a high maneuverability, supersonic aircraft with weapons and sensory system integration. The MC, FCC, NDI flight model and most of the other flight control and system integration electronics are a continuation from the experience gained from the KT-X program that has been developed and are being developed by the Korean engineers with some help from LM. On top of that there was no discontinuation of knowledge or know-how on the Korean side of things.

I really can't think of much when it comes to asking the question of what Indonesian engineers could be contributing more on when such a large part of KF-X program are either a continuation from the technologies developed from the KT-X program or based on the technologies gained through ToT during the F-X program.

Overall this is exactly that kind of topic where we would not be given any clear cut answers unless Indonesia do exit the program. Most of the technology involved are highly confidential thus the working environment and the people in the program are not those who are easy to reach and are under control of the controlling bodies. All we are getting are those interviews that are mostly unilateral and focused on either the Indonesian side of matters or the Korean side of matters which makes it impossible for us to judge solely based on these sources.

Such as

What should this technology even be? How significant is this technology in the first place? "Korea not taking Indonesia lightly" is the perspective of the Indonesian themselves which hardly tells much about what the Korean engineers actually think.

Other example would be

Here the Indonesian involvement during the design definition phase is mentioned as an important contribution in the program but importance of this contribution aside, it unfortunately doesn't tell much about the technological aspects of the of the Indonesian involvement but has more to do with how Indonesia is a partner of the program. As partner of the KF-X/IF-X program Indonesia obviously and rightfully could require and demand certain designs of the aircraft to suit its needs. The mass of the aircraft could be just one of those as Indonesia would obviously want a bigger internal fuel tank which is integral to aircraft mass.

All in all reading all your sources, it seems likely that what you are suggesting and mentioning are true, that there are in fact senior Indonesian engineers who are providing more input than what Koreans originally anticipated. On the flipside I am still considering what I have read from the KAI insiders at least partially true if not mostly true and will at least retain part of my doubts considering the Indonesian involvement.

Last but not least, mechanical design is just one part of the fundamentals of a fighter jet. We all know and you are already mentioning yourself that the other fundamental part of a fighter jet, which arguably has become even more important than the mechanical design of the fuselage itself, most of if not all the avionics, are either solely being developed by the Korean engineers, with or without foreign assistance or just procured straight away from foreign suppliers. Having close to zero contribution on these side of developments speaks a lot.

So that is my take regarding the technical contribution of Indonesian engineers in the KF-X/IF-X program.

Back to the topic of renegotiation, I still stand firm on what I have written in the previous post.

Your welcome mate, I also learn a lot from your knowledge.

Yup during the year of 2000-2005 we were getting trouble since IMF force us to shutdown N 2130 and N 250 program and stop providing fund to Indonesia Aerospace that let many engineers left the companies because there were massive lay off going on. In the past there were about 10.000 people working in Indonesian Aerospace (Dirgantara Indonesia) but currently we only have around 4000 people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_Aerospace

I believe there is still a continuation of knowledge and experiences as many senior engineers are still working for Dirgantara Indonesia where the example is Heri Yansah as KFX/IFX project manager for Indonesian side who has been working in Dirgantara Indonesia since 1987. Some very senior ex engineers I believe go to universities like Dr Rais Zain, M. Eng, KFX/IFX configuration design leader. From the title that he has it is clear that he leads the configuration design on the program and not really surprising if we see his academic title and probably he was former Dirgantara Indonesia engineers as well.

It is why N 219 project is very essential for Indonesia Aerospace since it becomes the source of regeneration where very senior engineers transfer their knowledge and experience to the fresh graduates engineers during that time. I read the story from Dirgantara Indonesia engineers where at that time every 1 senior engineer is accompanied with 4 junior engineers during the design process.

I also have said that some ex-engineers who have worked in Boeing and others are also called for KFX/IFX program but I dont remember where I get the information but I will try to give the link if I can find it. And I believe it is not difficult to call ex Indonesian aerospace engineers working abroad to work for KFX/IFX program due to the salary I believe is quite comparable to their previous work and there is also a sense of nationalism and maybe religious reason (some sorth of Jihad) to contribute for this very interesting program.

Actually there is a good news that I read recently from Dirgantara official saying that many ex Dirgantara Indonesia (DI) Engineers working outside (around 200 engineers) have already come back and currently work for the company. As I said in other post previously that Indonesian tend to come back to their country and this is why few Indonesian become immigrant in other country. Their come back IMO is also become the other reason of why N 245 project is now taken more seriously.

DI official said that as soon as N 219 get type certificate, they will start N 245 program. If it is really indeed realized so it could be the next transfer of knowledge and experience process after N 219 project, particularly to gain the knowledge and experience from those ex DI engineers previously working abroad for 15-20 years.

For your information, Indonesia is currently working for our aerospace industry road map for 2020-2045 time frame. So there is grand design that we try to make. I wonder though whether jet fighter development will still be part of it. It will then IMO depend on the fate of KFX/IFX program renegotiation.

There is chance IMO that Indonesia and Korea will once again cooperate for jet fighter/drone development in the future if we some how can solve our differences in current KFX/IFX program. Let say for drone is 2035 and for 6 generation fighter jet in 2040 (in the assumption that manned fighter jet is still needed).

If that is true, considering to Indonesia projected economic power at that time, I believe it would possibly be 50:50 scheme. Indonesia will also be very interested on the program if Korea can successfully produce their own engine for that potential future project. It is because many of Indonesian are very worry about the western input since we have a history of US and British weapon embargo. So I would like to ask you this question, do you think in the period of 2035 Korean can produce competitive indigenous drone engine and 2040 for competitive jet engine for fighter jet ?

 

[dr.knowhow]

Your welcome mate, I also learn a lot from your knowledge.

Yup during the year of 2000-2005 we were getting trouble since IMF force us to shutdown N 2130 and N 250 program and stop providing fund to Indonesia Aerospace that let many engineers left the companies because there were massive lay off going on. In the past there were about 10.000 people working in Indonesian Aerospace (Dirgantara Indonesia) but currently we only have around 4000 people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_Aerospace

I believe there is still a continuation of knowledge and experiences as many senior engineers are still working for Dirgantara Indonesia where the example is Heri Yansah as KFX/IFX project manager for Indonesian side who has been working in Dirgantara Indonesia since 1987. Some very senior ex engineers I believe go to universities like Dr Rais Zain, M. Eng, KFX/IFX configuration design leader. From the title that he has it is clear that he leads the configuration design on the program and not really surprising if we see his academic title and probably he was former Dirgantara Indonesia engineers as well.

It is why N 219 project is very essential for Indonesia Aerospace since it becomes the source of regeneration where very senior engineers transfer their knowledge and experience to the fresh graduates engineers during that time. I read the story from Dirgantara Indonesia engineers where at that time every 1 senior engineer is accompanied with 4 junior engineers during the design process.

I also have said that some ex-engineers who have worked in Boeing and others are also called for KFX/IFX program but I dont remember where I get the information but I will try to give the link if I can find it. And I believe it is not difficult to call ex Indonesian aerospace engineers working abroad to work for KFX/IFX program due to the salary I believe is quite comparable to their previous work and there is also a sense of nationalism and maybe religious reason (some sorth of Jihad) to contribute for this very interesting program.

Actually there is a good news that I read recently from Dirgantara official saying that many ex Dirgantara Indonesia (DI) Engineers working outside (around 200 engineers) have already come back and currently work for the company. As I said in other post previously that Indonesian tend to come back to their country and this is why few Indonesian become immigrant in other country. Their come back IMO is also become the other reason of why N 245 project is now taken more seriously.

DI official said that as soon as N 219 get type certificate, they will start N 245 program. If it is really indeed realized so it could be the next transfer of knowledge and experience process after N 219 project, particularly to gain the knowledge and experience from those ex DI engineers previously working abroad for 15-20 years.

For your information, Indonesia is currently working for our aerospace industry road map for 2020-2045 time frame. So there is grand design that we try to make. I wonder though whether jet fighter development will still be part of it. It will then IMO depend on the fate of KFX/IFX program renegotiation.

There is chance IMO that Indonesia and Korea will once again cooperate for jet fighter/drone development in the future if we some how can solve our differences in current KFX/IFX program. Let say for drone is 2035 and for 6 generation fighter jet in 2040 (in the assumption that manned fighter jet is still needed).

If that is true, considering to Indonesia projected economic power at that time, I believe it would possibly be 50:50 scheme. Indonesia will also be very interested on the program if Korea can successfully produce their own engine for that potential future project. It is because many of Indonesian are very worry about the western input since we have a history of US and British weapon embargo. So I would like to ask you this question, do you think in the period of 2035 Korean can produce competitive indigenous drone engine and 2040 for competitive jet engine for fighter jet ?

It is not uncommon for patriotic figures to come back to their homeland to help their own people out through difficult times. It was the case in almost every far east industrial nations during the 20th century and I guess it is the same story for Indonesia as well. I wouldn't place any blame to those who chose to immigrate to foreign countries seeking better life or other kind of ambition because I could understand them too well, though from the same stand point we could praise those who refuse the luxury but come back to promote the common good of their own people. Indonesia is lucky to have those engineers who love and have passion in their own country.

Talking about the Indonesian road map for their future aerospace industry, I personally think having a fighter jet program is a huge incentive. There are clearly some convergence between large subsonic aircraft and agile supersonic aircraft but they are in core a completely different machines and Indonesia has a lot to gain alone from taking part in designing an airframe that can pull out such maneuvers, sustain and endure the sheer amount of stress. That was in fact exactly the case when the Koreans developed the T-50. It is always described as such a quantum leap and a huge boost of confidence going into any kind of aerospace projects then after, let alone is the basis of basically every single aerospace projects that has followed it and are progressing atm. Even the KUH program which is a helicopter development program has a lot of its technology to be traced back to KT-X program.

Of course it would be hard to expect the similar magnitude of ripple effect on the Indonesian side of things considering the lack of Indonesian avionics but I do think that the IF-X fighters could pave the way for any future domestic Indonesian avionics to be vastly fast tracked and provide a range of opportunities other countries would not have not having their own fighter jet. The US has never allowed any foreign avionics to be integrated into their aircraft unless its either Israel or special cases like Japan's FS-X that led to F-2 which is an indigenous Japanese fighter on its own right considering the amount of Japanese input into the project leaving the fuselage aside. Same could be said about the European aircrafts as well. You either pay a hefty amount of money to get their old design and develop your own aircraft based on their aircraft with clear limitations or DIY from the ground up. As long as Indonesia stick to the project and the agreements, they would be able to retain their leverage.

If that is true, considering to Indonesia projected economic power at that time, I believe it would possibly be 50:50 scheme. Indonesia will also be very interested on the program if Korea can successfully produce their own engine for that potential future project. It is because many of Indonesian are very worry about the western input since we have a history of US and British weapon embargo. So I would like to ask you this question, do you think in the period of 2035 Korean can produce competitive indigenous drone engine and 2040 for competitive jet engine for fighter jet ?

Actually, the flying wing UAV and UCAV development has been going on since quite a few years now and they have already flown the prototype of the aircraft.

(photo courtesy of m.blog.naver.com/rgm84d, official blog of Military Review, a Korean defense magazine)

Above is the picture made public by the ADD I think this year. Being benchmarked are obviously other stealthy flying wing UAVs and UCAVs from the US and Europe such as X-45 or Taranis and Neuron. The project itself was highly confidential so nothing much was being revealed but as the KF-X program progressed along with other R&D programs related to the stealth UCAV, I guess the ADD and the ROKA decided that it is okay to give out some infos to the public.

Talking about the indigenous turbofan engines, there is also a project going on since the mid 2010s, which is aimed for a development of 5,500 pounds thrust low-bypass turbofan and 8,000~10,000 pounds thrust high-bypass turbofan engine scheduled for completion by 2025. So you wouldn't need to wait for an extra decade to get a Korean turbofan engine good enough for a UCAV. Things are progressing in quite a speed in Korea. The basis of the turbofan technology itself originates from the development of turbojet engine that powers C-Star ASM and project that followed which led to another jet engine that is powering the Hyunmoo-III cruise missile. In the beginning the Korean got their help from France and Ukraine during the 80s and 90s then also producing various kinds of gas turbine engines domestically for the ROKAF and ROKN paved the way for accumulation of know-how in developing and manufacturing a gas turbine.

Although separate from Hanhwa Aerospace who are the sole contractor of gas turbine engines being use and are being developed for the ROKA, there are other companies like Doosan who've recently developed a gas turbine for powerplants, which there are only a handful of countries that develop and manufacture around the world. This along with the various kind of industrial and academic clusters in Korea such as the the research cluster in Daejeon or institutes that govern these technologies in likes of Korea Institute of Material Science which connects the engineers within the country are clearly resulting in a synergy in gas turbine development.

I still wouldn't be so sure about if Korea would be able to develop a fighter jet class engine in the 2040 because that is a full 2 decades away from now, which for me is almost impossible to guess what would then be the standard for a state of the art fighter jet engine. We are already seeing trends like variable bypass ratio, significantly more capacity of generating electricity for all the new sensory suite and directed energy weapons, higher performance throughout the whole flight envelope and of course better fuel economy and thrust but who knows what would happen. Maybe duel mode turbofan-ramjets would be the new standard . Those things aside, continuing the development of the turbofan engines, I think Korea could be able to emerge as a new supplier of niche market turbofan engines for a more competitive price when any emerging nations are willing to develop a new UAV or such. It would for example provide Indonesia another option on top of European and American products if they are willing to develop their own UAV and are searching for an engine. There are of course less concerns over embargo as well.

 

[Indos]

Talking about the Indonesian road map for their future aerospace industry, I personally think having a fighter jet program is a huge incentive. There are clearly some convergence between large subsonic aircraft and agile supersonic aircraft but they are in core a completely different machines and Indonesia has a lot to gain alone from taking part in designing an airframe that can pull out such maneuvers, sustain and endure the sheer amount of stress. That was in fact exactly the case when the Koreans developed the T-50. It is always described as such a quantum leap and a huge boost of confidence going into any kind of aerospace projects then after, let alone is the basis of basically every single aerospace projects that has followed it and are progressing atm. Even the KUH program which is a helicopter development program has a lot of its technology to be traced back to KT-X program.

Yup, actually the fact that Indonesia has joined KFX/IFX program since 2009 shows that during SBY administration fighter jet development is indeed considered as some thing important for our aerospace industry development. I also hope fighter jet development is included in our aerospace grand design and this grand design IMO will affect KFX/IFX renegotiation as well. According to me it is indeed crucial to have the ability and experience on this field and particularly it is inline with Indonesia greater ambition in future geopolitics and industrialization. Not to mention defense equipment embargo history that we have that should motivate Indonesia to increase its defense industry sophistication step by step.

Actually the thinking has been going on since the late 1980's where Indonesia aerospace at that time get F16 sales offset to produce F 16 wings in Indonesian aerospace facility. The ambition then get bigger with the previous plan to manufacture Hawk 100/200 in the country with promise to buy around 80 Hawk 100/200, but this plan didnt materialize due to Asian Financial Crisis that started in 1997 that make Indonesia reduce the number into 32 Hawk where all planes were produced in Britain.

I would like to give an interesting story related about Indonesian effort to do some sort of research on Stealth fighter jet outside KFX/IFX program. The research started after Korea delayed the KFX/IFX program for two years (2013-2014) before starting it again in 2015.

There is some worried IMO among Indonesian planner that KFX/IFX program will be stopped by Korean parliament or Korean chose single engine KFX which is actually a KAI proposal which doesnt fit with Indonesia requirement and throw away C 103 double engine design made by ADD Korea and Dirgantara Indonesia. There is some sort of idea at that time that Indonesia has to do it alone and it is somehow appear on LFX (Lapan Fighter Experiment) program that going on at least about less than 2 years (2013-2014). Although the program itself is previously intended to support KFX/IFX program. The program is stopped after KFX/IFX program is started again.

Lapan (Indonesia Space Agency) has some kind of connection with Dirgantara Indonesia (DI) in term of funding and research although DI engineers are much more experience and quite many in number compared to Lapan researchers. Despite so, at least as a research agency that has aerospace division in it the agency could be tasked to research whether Indonesia has the adequate resources to do fighter development program alone if KFX/IFX program is cancelled by Korean. There is also some sorth of cooperation with Bandung Institute of Technology and DI according to Lapan official involved in the program.

This is actually the second research program in Lapan for fighter jet research and it can be easily known by the code name of LFX 2

LFX (Lapan Fighter Experiment)

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

Keep arguing, at least we're learning something. If you had so much information, why didn't you share it until now.

 

[Indos]

Based on latest prototype revelation, some one make KFX/IFX prototype photoshop

 

[Indos]

There is possibility the program competitor launch a PR black campaign against KFX/IFX program. I just see latest Republika news only bring some ones opposing KFX/IFX program. Jakarta Post also made news about the program using misleading data about the cost Indonesia should pay.

Luckily other media reporters seems to me cannot be bribed and relatively quite fair. Other thing I want to say is that it is not our finance ministry who was responsible to latest Indonesian arrears in September, but our defense ministry. This is revealed by Finance Ministry official who was asked by the media about the reason of why Indonesia didnt pay the latest payment in last September.

It has been 2 years and the year 2020 is about to pass but the renegotiation is still continuing, I hope the two parties can make a compromise to each other so a deal can be made. This program can be the way to tighten friendship between this two nations and open future collaboration between two nations in strategic industries and R&D. In people to people relationship, it should make us get closer to each other as well. Knowing that we are a strategic partner to each other.

It is a pity if at the end this program end up separating the two nations, sacrificing our close relation that we have nurtured for decades, something that I think has started happening when Korean and Indonesian netizen talks about the program over the internet, particularly after the renegotiation is started and Indonesian government started abandoning their financial responsibility since 2017.

 

[SgtGungHo]

It is simple at the end. Indonesia either has to honor the initial contract and pay up the promised contribution in cash (no barter deals) & receive appropriate ToT for the money that they pay and acquire the number of IF-X that Indonesia signed up for or Indonesia let herself out of the joint program as the Korean government won't deliever parts for a prototype that is reserved for Indonesia.

And sadly I don't think the Indonesian government is interested in honoring the contract. As I said before this is like watching a trainwreck in slow motion. Korea will compete the project by itself and Indonesia will purchase Eurofighter and some other alternatives which are honstly more suitable for what they need.

 

[Indos]

It is simple at the end. Indonesia either has to honor the initial contract and pay up the promised contribution in cash (no barter deals) & receive appropriate ToT for the money that they pay and acquire the number of IF-X that Indonesia signed up for or Indonesia let herself out of the joint program as the Korean government won't deliever parts for a prototype that is reserved for Indonesia.

And sadly I don't think the Indonesian government is interested in honoring the contract. As I said before this is like watching a trainwreck in slow motion. Korea will compete the project by itself and Indonesia will purchase Eurofighter and some other alternatives which are honstly more suitable for what they need.

The barter scheme is not the main demand of Indonesia delegation but there is some reason behind that demand. I will try to explain based on my analysis on the situation during that time.

The situation which prompted Indonesia to do renegotiation is an unprecedented increase in trade deficit during 2018 that worried Indonesia economic team, mainly because it affected our currency value badly during that period.

Jokowi is seen by many analyst as the President with focus is in economy, so it is understandable if he started to renegotiate KFX/IFX program and ask for some sort of relief in payment due to that economic problem. Some people inside Jokowi ring who oppose the program since the beginning IMO then take advantage of the situation and tried to give ridiculous input like barter, lengthening the payment period, and decreasing the promised IFX acquisition of 48 planes into just 16 after they failed to shutdown the program using argument during cabinet meeting.

Former Investment Minister, Thomas Lembong, I suspect, is one of them. He is US educated and spend much of his carrier there. Quite weird when he talked about KFX/IFX program on the official investment ministry website and there he talked about decreasing IFX acquisition number into ridiculous 16 planes and so on. Fortunately he has been replaced by another man in Jokowi second term (2019 November-2024 November).

Some Indonesian look like want the nation to rely on US forever and buy US weapon as much as possible, down playing the embargo history and so on, but they are very minority in our society. I might know the reason but I wouldnt disclose it here, quite a sensitive topic I would say.

My advice to Jokowi

Jokowi then should be very careful in listening to people on his own circle who oppose the program and suggesting him with ridiculous demands since it is just a way to make Indonesia leave the program, not a genuine suggestion IMO that focuses on the nation benefit, but merely on the benefit of their own personal and group agenda.

This program of course still uses US engine, but this is our first step to be independent on this very strategic military equipment. The journey is still quite long, but if we dont take the first step we will be just dependent forever.

Large majority of Indonesian actually support the program and you can witness it by reading the Youtube comment section of the news (CNBC) talking about the KFX/IFX program that I posted in last September (previous page). There are around 100.000 viewers there and, once again, you can check on their comments to prove my words.

Current renegotiation

Talking about the current renegotiation, the barter scheme I believe has been erased from Indonesian demands. The main focus now is on decreasing our financial portion in the program into 15 %, we can actually see it by the latest statement of defense ministry spoke person that I also have posted in previous page. TOT issue maybe still exist as well. These are reasonable points that IMO should make Korean negotiator accept it.

Especially by considering there is a law in Indonesia since 2012 that prevent our military to buy foreign military equipment that can be produced in the country. So it makes total possible KFX/IFX that will be bought by Indonesia could be more than 50, possibly 150-200 planes, particularly if the program can satisfy our related industry. This is why there is no CN 235 or NC 212 competitor that are bought by our military. Buying our own made weapon is also politically popular at home.

Just thinking if Indonesia economy can reach 2 trillion USD GDP in 2030 as projected by recent western institution projection with reasonable basis of 5-6 percent economic growth for the next 10 years. There is no guarantee of course, but so far we can continue growing at that speed for the last 20 years, AlhamduliLLAH. Tax ratio is possibly higher as well at time that could make our defense budget reach at least 20 billion USD a year inshaAllah, doubling current figure.

Buying proven foreign planes until 100-200 will likely get TOT, offset, and assembling as well. Just look on how Korean can get meaningful TOT from buying just around 48 F35 and also Brazil deal with Dassault to produce 36 Rafale that they bough. And here we are talking about the program where Indonesia put financial contribution and experience human resources on it (that also make Indonesia sacrifice his own aerospace program), beside promise to buy up to 50 planes with huge possibility to buy until 200 planes.

 

[Indos]

You can see the law here, sorry because it is in Indonesian language

file:///C:/Users/HPPAVI~1/AppData/Local/Temp/Undang-Undang-tahun-2012-16-12.pdf

Some one copy paste it in this website:

UU 16 tahun 2012 tentang Industri Pertahanan

UU 16 tahun 2012 tentang Industri Pertahanan

www.jogloabang.com

Translation on the procurement detail

Part Seven

Procurement, Maintenance and Repair
Defense and Security Equipment Tools
Art 43

Users are required to use domestically produced Defense and Security Equipment Tools.
Users are required to carry out maintenance and repair of the domestic Defense and Security Equipment Tools.

In the event that the domestic Defense and Security Equipment Tool as referred to in paragraph (1) has not been fulfilled by the Defense Industry, the Defense Industry User can propose to KKIP to use foreign products by procuring it through direct inter-governmental processes or to manufacturers.
In terms of national strategic interests, the DPR provides considerations in the procurement of certain Defense and Security Equipment Tools in accordance with the foreign policy implemented by the Government.

The procurement of the foreign product Defense and Security Equipment Tool as referred to in paragraph (3) must meet the following requirements:

Defense and Security Equipment Tools have not or cannot be made domestically;
include the participation of the Defense Industry;
obligation to transfer technology;
guarantee that there is no potential embargo, political conditionality and barriers to the use of Defense and Security Equipment Tools in an effort to defend the sovereignty of the country, the territorial integrity of the Unitary State of the Republic of Indonesia, and the safety of the entire nation from threats and disturbances to the integrity of the nation and state;
there is trade return, local content and / or offset of at least 85% (eighty five percent);
local content and / or offset as referred to in letter e shall be at least 35% (thirty five percent) with an increase of 10% (ten percent) every 5 (five) years; and
the enforcement of offsets is no later than 18 (eighteen) months after this Law is promulgated.

(4) The participation of the Defense Industry as referred to in paragraph (5) letter b is a purchase with a trade reward mechanism, including an offset.
The coordination of the procurement of the Defense and Security Equipment Tool is carried out based on the provisions of the KKIP as referred to in paragraph (3).
Based on operational needs, Users and the Defense Industry can jointly formulate technical specifications for the Defense and Security Equipment Tool.
(2) Further provisions regarding the details and mechanism of trade returns, including offsets as referred to in paragraph (6) shall be regulated in a Government Regulation.

 

[Indos]

The reason Korean need to build their own fighter than just relying on US fighters. These coming from Korean Air Force ex pilot/General. One main reason is that it will be cheaper and easier to maintain our own fighter. In the time of war, this is very crucial. Some time he said Korean must delay the maintenance for about six month or even up to one year due to their dependency on US manufacturer.

Indonesian Aerospace official also said previously in other media that Indonesia will be much easier to upgrade the plane if KFX/IFX become our back bone fighter and he said this will give some sort of adventage for our Air Force that can increase our deterrent capability.

 

[SgtGungHo]

The main focus now is on decreasing our financial portion in the program into 15 %, we can actually see it by the latest statement of defense ministry spoke person that I also have posted in previous page. TOT issue maybe still exist as well. These are reasonable points that IMO should make Korean negotiator accept it.

They are not reasonable points. There is no reason for South Korea to make such concessions wher there is nothing in return from Indoensia. Reduction in the contribution towards the joint program from 20% to 15% is financially significant and Indonesia can't have more ToT than it was by constributing financially less to the program. That's insane.

Again, the choice is clear and simple either Indonesia honors the original contract or doesn't.

I am sorry to see that the Indonesian government has chosen this course of action, but I am honestly happy for them of leaving the program. There are better alternatives out there for Indonesia and that's the reason why the country is actively looking for fighter jets such as F-16V, F-35A, Typhoon and more.

 

[OppositeDay]

The reason Korean need to build their own fighter than just relying on US fighters. These coming from Korean Air Force ex pilot/General. One main reason is that it will be cheaper and easier to maintain our own fighter. In the time of war, this is very crucial. Some time he said Korean must delay the maintenance for about six month or even up to one year due to their dependency on US manufacturer.

Indonesian Aerospace official also said previously in other media that Indonesia will be much easier to upgrade the plane if KFX/IFX become our back bone fighter and he said this will give some sort of adventage for our Air Force that can increase our deterrent capability.

In the time of war South Korea won't even have command over its own military. I'm sure Americans are going to bring in the maintenance once a war breaks out.

 

[Indos]

KFX/IFX mock up seen in DX 2020 event in Seoul, South Korea. The defense exibition event was held in 18-20 November 2020.

 

[Indos]

Some benefit of KFX/IFX program beyond aerospace sector for Indonesia


1. KFX/IFX program IMO is a good program to improve our national brand image that can later help many Indonesian local company to penetrate export market for high tech industrial product and modern services.

Modern service industry that for developing nation is currently lead by Indian should also be aimed by Indonesian local company and they should start to aim for export market.

2. KFX/IFX program can also be good to build confidence among our people and younger generation, even my 10 years old niece has known about the project and I believe this can help his confidence further to achieve higher dream. He also can speak English quite good and use the language among his peers in the complex. 50 % kids at his ages has used English during conversation between them in his neigborhood. So just think what would be the effect if that potential generation with all of their capabilities and internet infrastructure get confident from the fact that their nation is building 5 generation fighter with South Korea.

3. The program will improve nation standing/image and I think it is quite comparable like hosting an Olympic Games despite we only become junior partner of the program.



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Comparing it with CN 235 program in late 1970's

Talking about the cost, I believe the program can be quite comparable or maybe much less expensive than CN 235 program during late 1970's if we compare it with Indonesian GDP at that time. I talk about total development cost relative to GDP or government total spending.

So KFX/IFX program is like CN 235 program during late 1970's and too bad we dont know how much the cost is since CN 235 program cost so far is not available for public knowledge. At that time we also contribute 50 % of development cost while for KFX/IFX program it is only 20 %.

CN 235 program IMO is also very instrumental in building our confidence during that time that lead to our nation success in building high tech home grown industry relative to nations in our region (South East Asia) despite our low R&D budget.

So KFX/IFX program can become our other steroid to pursuit more development in high tech industry and the effect could be felt until 40 years from now like how CN 235 program has done since late 1970s until 2020.

This mentality thing is very important, it is like how determinant Jhon F. Kennedy is to bring man to the moon during cold war with USSR. That program thus help improving confidence among baby boomers despite the lead engineers at that time is German immigrant.

Jokowi has said previously about mental revolution (revolusi mental) during his first term administration and this program IMO can help him to achieve such goal perfectly.

 

[SgtGungHo]

Some benefit of KFX/IFX program beyond aerospace sector for Indonesia


1. KFX/IFX program IMO is a good program to improve our national brand image that can later help many Indonesian local company to penetrate export market for high tech industrial product and modern services.

Modern service industry that for developing nation is currently lead by Indian should also be aimed by Indonesian local company and they should start to aim for export market.

2. KFX/IFX program can also be good to build confidence among our people and younger generation, even my 10 years old niece has known about the project and I believe this can help his confidence further to achieve higher dream. He also can speak English quite good and use the language among his peers in the complex. 50 % kids at his ages has used English during conversation between them in his neigborhood. So just think what would be the effect if that potential generation with all of their capabilities and internet infrastructure get confident from the fact that their nation is building 5 generation fighter with South Korea.

3. The program will improve nation standing/image and I think it is quite comparable like hosting an Olympic Games despite we only become junior partner of the program.



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Comparing it with CN 235 program in late 1970's

Talking about the cost, I believe the program can be quite comparable or maybe much less expensive than CN 235 program during late 1970's if we compare it with Indonesian GDP at that time. I talk about total development cost relative to GDP or government total spending.

So KFX/IFX program is like CN 235 program during late 1970's and too bad we dont know how much the cost is since CN 235 program cost so far is not available for public knowledge. At that time we also contribute 50 % of development cost while for KFX/IFX program it is only 20 %.

CN 235 program IMO is also very instrumental in building our confidence during that time that lead to our nation success in building high tech home grown industry relative to nations in our region (South East Asia) despite our low R&D budget.

So KFX/IFX program can become our other steroid to pursuit more development in high tech industry and the effect could be felt until 40 years from now like how CN 235 program has done since late 1970s until 2020.

This mentality thing is very important, it is like how determinant Jhon F. Kennedy is to bring man to the moon during cold war with USSR. That program thus help improving confidence among baby boomers despite the lead engineers at that time is German immigrant.

Jokowi has said previously about mental revolution (revolusi mental) during his first term administration and this program IMO can help him to achieve such goal perfectly.

Let's end this pipe dream. It seems clear that Jokowi isn't interested in paying the contribution towards the program and the Indonesian government is actively looking for alternative systems. (by the way, I do think F-16 may suit Indonesia better than KF-X/IF-X) Cancelling the submarine orders from DSME would further sour the relationship between two nations.

It doesn't matter how determined & mentally prepared the nation is for the project when they are not actually paying for the program. We can talk about how the project benefits Indonesia in both short-term and long-term, but the bottom line is that Indonesia won't receive the prototype nor be able to produce KF-X/IF-X locally as they simply are not paying for it.

I am pretty sure you are aware that the project can't wait for the next presidential election in Indonesia. It will progress and Indonesia would be denied to access to the final product unless they finally decide to pay up the full amount.