KAYANI IS "DESPERATE" FOR HELICOPTERS

[HAIDER]

dont disagree but russian 'offensive' weapons are 'off-limits' for the near and medium term.

the other option is the chinese wz-10 but this type continues to be 'dogged' with power-plant problems and faces massive delays.

the turkish attack helo is under 'testing and evaluation' and will not be available until 2015-2018.

.........so the only 'option' left is upgraded cobras and by 2014, the super cobra.

Need is urgent, even US military/NATO is short of helicopter. In Afghanistan they using leased transport helo from European leasing company, i think based in Netherlands.

AIR MI-17s Afghan
Afghan Army Mi-17s
(click to view full)

An Oct 24/07 report in Canada’s Globe & Mail claims that: “NATO plans to rent helicopters to resupply front lines and remote bases in southern Afghanistan – an unprecedented move that could reduce ground casualties even as it exposes the unwillingness of major European allies to send their choppers into dangerous, Taliban-infested areas.” Which may be partly explained by US Secretary of Defense Gates’ remarks, in a recent European speech:

Rent-a-Helicopters Headed to Afghanistan
Carson helicopters, a firm that operates heavy-lift helicopters for firefighting and construction, recently signed a deal with to haul supplies for the U.S. military in Afghanistan. The Mail Tribune, a southern Oregon paper, reports that the company will provide seven Sikorsky S-61 helicopters, along with parts and maintenance, to a partner company contracted by the Pentagon. Their partner? While Carson would not say, the Mail Tribune cited court documents and Department of Defense records that show the contract is with Presidential Airways, a subsidiary of the company formerly known as Blackwater Worldwide.

 

[pakistantiger]

well i m for turkish t-129

 

[rotor]

Why is the Pakistan Army asking the US Government for AH-1Z's?, they new, problem prone and their hot high performance is really bad, how do they expect to conduct North Waziristan with this 80 Million Dollar Under Powered Helo!!!!

Apache's and Black Hawk's are a much better and cheaper option with a lot more power and performance!

 

[fatman17]

Why is the Pakistan Army asking the US Government for AH-1Z's?, they new, problem prone and their hot high performance is really bad, how do they expect to conduct North Waziristan with this 80 Million Dollar Under Powered Helo!!!!
Apache's and Black Hawk's are a much better and cheaper option with a lot more power and performance!

youve got your figures 'crossed'!!!

 

[Chogy]

The difference between the heavy attack helicopters like the Apache, the Mi-24/35, and lighter variants like the Kiowa, Cobra, and armed Blackhawks, is fairly significant in terms of cost, maintenance, and sortie rate. Of these, the latter two are very important for COIN.

Is the Apache better than the Cobra against armor? Yes, when the Apache works. It is maintenance hungry. Picture instead 4 to 6 Cobra, with simple maintenance and quick turn rates, plus plenty of punch for fighting Taliban.

That is why I brought up the Kiowa (in Iraq) vs. the Apache. The Kiowas flew a vastly greater number of sorties than the Apache, and ultimately, the commanders began to ask for the Kiowa rather than the Apache. In urban fighting, they knew it would be there over the city, buzzing about like an angry hornet, and with armament capable of doing the job.

It's a matter of choice. My thoughts are if there is a limited budget, I would rather have 10 Cobras than one Apache, and better yet would be a much larger portion of armed lift, like armed Blackhawk or Mi helicopters.

 

[Chogy]

Let me try and rephrase this.

Yesterday, I watched a National Geographic Explorer documentary that showed the Pakistani Army in action. It was inspiring. The Pakistani units were aggressive and well-trained. I want them to have the tools to do the job. But if offered a dozen Apache, I'd rather see them get 3X as many Cobras and the spares necessary, plus lift. I believe the lighter helicopters would be far more effective in the disputed areas. But I'm no Army general.

Hopefully, they will get what they need to do the job.

 

[Solomon2]

Chogy, after Saddam was removed from power the job of helicopters in Iraq was armed reconnaissance whereas in Pakistan's battles with the Taliban it is to fight and seize territory. You want an armored machine for that. So the Kiowas did fine in Iraq doing what they were designed to do, but in Pakistan their comparable function would be to seek and kill Talibs in areas (like Swat) already re-occupied by the Pakistani Army. Given the P.A.'s manpower, they need few if any Kiowas.

I wonder if a few AH-1s can be leased to Pakistan? If the terms were fixed and it could be ensured that proper maintenance was followed, perhaps the Marines could release a few from the reserve?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I wonder if a few AH-1s can be leased to Pakistan? If the terms were fixed and it could be ensured that proper maintenance was followed, perhaps the Marines could release a few from the reserve?

This would only help in the war effort.
When we have the technology at our disposal then why not use it?

The enemy has a lot of advantage due to its local know how and its decades of experience in war of attrition. Camouflage and sneak attacks.

The transport and attack gunship give us the upper hand and counter the enemies advantage.

Especially in cases when the enemy is retreating/ escaping... an intime air assault or deployment of troops on the important escape routes can foil its attempts.

Otherwise this is a long war and we will continue to chase shadows. It is virtually impossible to physically man every ridge and mountain top as the logistics and manpower requirements are just out of any possibility.


Honestly... drones and helicopters are the key to break the backbone of this insurgency. If you guys can trust us to fly and maintain F-16 block 52s I am sure these proposed copters whether leased or sold won’t be any problem.
You’re on ground trainers and representatives can ensure that for sure.

I wish in near future we can see an end to this.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Let me try and rephrase this.

Yesterday, I watched a National Geographic Explorer documentary that showed the Pakistani Army in action. It was inspiring. The Pakistani units were aggressive and well-trained. I want them to have the tools to do the job. But if offered a dozen Apache, I'd rather see them get 3X as many Cobras and the spares necessary, plus lift. I believe the lighter helicopters would be far more effective in the disputed areas. But I'm no Army general.

Hopefully, they will get what they need to do the job.

totally agree with this..
the age old cobras have done a superb job so far... no doubt Apache is just a class of its own but this marvelous machine i.e. cobra is spearheading the COIN operations in tribal areas and has been of great help for ground troops that came under fire from ambush or while conducting seak and destroy missions against the Taliban

 

[Aamir Hussain]

I spoke to one of my old buddies (a she!) who just returned from Iraq. She told me that they are now routinely using tactical drones to recon a patrol route and take videos of the route and than match them with yesterday's videos to hunt for roadside bombs, IED's, and concealed ambushes positions. This is extensively done in rural areas and not so in built -up areas.

this is what we need in FATA and areas of Swat.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I spoke to one of my old buddies (a she!) who just returned from Iraq. She told me that they are now routinely using tactical drones to recon a patrol route and take videos of the route and than match them with yesterday's videos to hunt for roadside bombs, IED's, and concealed ambushes positions. This is extensively done in rural areas and not so in built -up areas.

this is what we need in FATA and areas of Swat.

we cant support and fund it.. like America

secondly we are habitual fly tippers and one of the most untidy people with garbage and trash thrown out, dead animals on the road and no one bothering to move..

so even if we have the footage its a tall ask to go through every junk pile over a square mile.

 

[HAIDER]

I spoke to one of my old buddies (a she!) who just returned from Iraq. She told me that they are now routinely using tactical drones to recon a patrol route and take videos of the route and than match them with yesterday's videos to hunt for roadside bombs, IED's, and concealed ambushes positions. This is extensively done in rural areas and not so in built -up areas.

this is what we need in FATA and areas of Swat.

This technique been applied during Fallujah/Iraq operation where they check all major roads for six month and scan each and every corner and movement of any hard and soft object along road side, that's one of the reason Fallujah operation was huge success. There is no alternate of high tech satellite and drones.

 

[blain2]

Let me try and rephrase this.

Yesterday, I watched a National Geographic Explorer documentary that showed the Pakistani Army in action. It was inspiring. The Pakistani units were aggressive and well-trained. I want them to have the tools to do the job. But if offered a dozen Apache, I'd rather see them get 3X as many Cobras and the spares necessary, plus lift. I believe the lighter helicopters would be far more effective in the disputed areas. But I'm no Army general.

Hopefully, they will get what they need to do the job.

My own take is that Cobras (spares and spare parts) are hard to come by now which is why availability is an issue.

Funding could be used for inducting AH-64 but its a completely new platform which would require funds from other programs (F-16 upgrades etc.) to be diverted and PAA may not want to get engaged in a year long training program to attain IOC on a gunship platform which is needed now. Due to familiarization with the AH-1 series, it would make sense for Pakistan to induct 1Zs as the most streamlined capabilities enhancement. The challenge would be paying for them and secondly we would need to get in front of the USMC to get 18-20 aircraft which would be difficult.

One other issue with the lift is that Mi-8/Mi-17 have slower speeds at lift off than the Blackhawk which is an issue for air assault operations. While Blackhawks are expensive, they would help Pakistan quite a bit with this.

 

[REHAN NIAZI FALCON]

ARMY needs copters very badly because they have prooved to be mighty effective in controlling attacks and helping PAK army in conducting operations ..
also in protection of convoyes from ambushed attacks.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

we cant support and fund it.. like America

secondly we are habitual fly tippers and one of the most untidy people with garbage and trash thrown out, dead animals on the road and no one bothering to move..

so even if we have the footage its a tall ask to go through every junk pile over a square mile.

you have got a point my friend