Kashmir should become independent from India.

[Post Colonnial]

Go and take some tution class on history before posting nonsense.


You are a typical Indian with your wet dreams.

don't get upset - it is not just me saying it but many many Pakistanis as well. Unfortunately the last several decades your military has been feeding you all a cock and bull story about Pakistan, Islam etc and you all have innocently swallowed it all hook line and sinker.

You can beat even Nicolas Chauvin any day, any time.

not really and certainly not intentionally. Just stating the facts at the baseline.

 

[scorpionx]

don't get upset - it is not just me saying it but many many Pakistanis as well. Unfortunately the last several decades your military has been feeding you all a cock and bull story about Pakistan, Islam etc and you all have innocently swallowed it all hook line and sinker.



not really and certainly not intentionally. Just stating the facts at the baseline.

But our founding fathers of Independent India never thought in that way. You know what Nehru said in Lok Sabha fifty years ago? He said, " Do not think you are dealing with a part of Uttar Pradesh, Bihar or Gujarat. You are dealing with an area, historically and geographically and in all manner of things, with a certain background. If we bring our local ideas and local prejudices everywhere, we will never consolidate.."

Certainly circumstances have changed today and India would accept anything but agreeing for a plebiscite and hand over Kashmir to Pakistan in a platter but my point is, lets not fool ourselves with the hyper-rnationalistic notion that India had a traditional right over a region that historically despised the Mughals, Afghans, the Sikhs, Dogras and finally us. Sooner we understand that our leaders need to see for a solution with more affection and sympathy (which we have carefully avoided for the last seventy years) for the people and not through pellet guns, the better.

 

[Hellfire]

The thread title is wrong.

Kashmir is already idependent. It is only now under the illegal occupation of an alien race.

No amout of violence, hate or oppression can keep Kashmir under control of this alien occupational force.

Kashmir is Independent!!!

Only choice left for this alien race of sick occupiers is to go back to the dusty plains...and stay there.

You have no flag, are you the alien race?

 

[hell9214]

The thread title is wrong.

Kashmir is already idependent. It is only now under the illegal occupation of an alien race.

No amout of violence, hate or oppression can keep Kashmir under control of this alien occupational force.

Kashmir is Independent!!!

Only choice left for this alien race of sick occupiers is to go back to the dusty plains...and stay there.

Why u r saying alien race, indians r grown From apes or monkey what about u I think u r grown From dog who lives in mud nd live there life on the left over things of apes

 

[Post Colonnial]

But our founding fathers of Independent India never thought in that way. You know what Nehru said in Lok Sabha fifty years ago? He said, " Do not think you are dealing with a part of Uttar Pradesh, Bihar or Gujarat. You are dealing with an area, historically and geographically and in all manner of things, with a certain background. If we bring our local ideas and local prejudices everywhere, we will never consolidate.."

Certainly circumstances have changed today and India would accept anything but agreeing for a plebiscite and hand over Kashmir to Pakistan in a platter but my point is, lets not fool ourselves with the hyper-rnationalistic notion that India had a traditional right over a region that historically despised the Mughals, Afghans, the Sikhs, Dogras and finally us. Sooner we understand that our leaders need to see for a solution with more affection and sympathy (which we have carefully avoided for the last seventy years) for the people and not through pellet guns, the better.

it all depends on how far back in time you are willing to go. Nehru did very good things but by no means was perfect,
Similarly when we use terms like 'hyper; and 'ultra' and 'uber'....they are all relative to the utterer and the utteree!

Will you not consider the highly established possibility that Pakistan is the problem and not Kashmiri stone pelters or the army reactions? If you do then we start agreeing that Pakistan needs to be fixed first.

Fixing a nuclear armed, and more than that, a radicalized nation of 130+M with a significant contingent of rabid influencers is - this is the task at hand.

Affection and sympathy for what? for a bunch of rowdies that pelt stones for Rs.500?

 

[scorpionx]

it all depends on how far back in time you are willing to go. Nehru did very good things but by no means was perfect,
Similarly when we use terms like 'hyper; and 'ultra' and 'uber'....they are all relative to the utterer and the utteree!

Will you not consider the highly established possibility that Pakistan is the problem and not Kashmiri stone pelters or the army reactions? If you do then we start agreeing that Pakistan needs to be fixed first.

Fixing a nuclear armed, and more than that, a radicalized nation of 130+M with a significant contingent of rabid influencers is - this is the task at hand.

Affection and sympathy for what? for a bunch of rowdies that pelt stones for Rs.500?

Our attitude towards Kashmiris needs a fix first and NOT Pakistan. The history of stone pelting did not start in the 90's. It was there when the Mughals ruled as it continued to be main weapon of National Conference against the oppressive regime of the Dogras. Kashmiris just do not like outsiders to rule. What we have done since 1953 after toppling Sheikh Abdullah from what he justly deserved is to put one puppet after the other on the CM's seat who would sing nothing but New Delhi's tune. We need to make a start right from there to have a free and fair election first where public can chose a leader of their own who will understand their pains and traumas for seventy years.

Next should be abolish the draconian laws like AFSPA forever which is used as an useful weapon to detain the innocents indiscriminately, getting away with after extra-judicial killings that triggered intense public outrage not just in Kashmir but in North Eastern states too? Only then we can realize that we have been our worst enemy ourselves and not Pakistan which has just exploited our vulnerabilities in the valley. Even if you eliminate Pakistan factor permanently things are never going to improve if we do not correct ourselves.

 

[Post Colonnial]

Our attitude towards Kashmiris needs a fix first and NOT Pakistan. The history of stone pelting did not start in the 90's. It was there when the Mughals ruled as it continued to be main weapon of National Conference against the oppressive regime of the Dogras. Kashmiris just do not like outsiders to rule. What we have done since 1953 after toppling Sheikh Abdullah from what he justly deserved is to put one puppet after the other on the CM's seat who would sing nothing but New Delhi's tune. We need to make a start right from there to have a free and fair election first where public can chose a leader of their own who will understand their pains and traumas for seventy years.

Next should be abolish the draconian laws like AFSPA forever which is used as an useful weapon to detain the innocents indiscriminately, getting away with after extra-judicial killings that triggered intense public outrage not just in Kashmir but in North Eastern states too? Only then we can realize that we have been our worst enemy ourselves and not Pakistan which has just exploited our vulnerabilities in the valley. Even if you eliminate Pakistan factor permanently things are never going to improve if we do not correct ourselves.

even assuming for a moment your root cause statement is true, no single state, in this case a sub-state, gets to push the union. If they do they have simply invited and justified the disciplinary actions. There is a reason law enforcement, para military and military exist.

But that assumption doesn't actually hold. Whether Pakistan is creating the problem or just fanning the flames, either case fix Pakistan. If they are creating the problem, it goes away. If they are fanning the flame, it gets much smaller.

 

[Spectre]

Our attitude towards Kashmiris needs a fix first and NOT Pakistan. The history of stone pelting did not start in the 90's. It was there when the Mughals ruled as it continued to be main weapon of National Conference against the oppressive regime of the Dogras. Kashmiris just do not like outsiders to rule. What we have done since 1953 after toppling Sheikh Abdullah from what he justly deserved is to put one puppet after the other on the CM's seat who would sing nothing but New Delhi's tune. We need to make a start right from there to have a free and fair election first where public can chose a leader of their own who will understand their pains and traumas for seventy years.

Next should be abolish the draconian laws like AFSPA forever which is used as an useful weapon to detain the innocents indiscriminately, getting away with after extra-judicial killings that triggered intense public outrage not just in Kashmir but in North Eastern states too? Only then we can realize that we have been our worst enemy ourselves and not Pakistan which has just exploited our vulnerabilities in the valley. Even if you eliminate Pakistan factor permanently things are never going to improve if we do not correct ourselves.

Either Kashmir is a conflict zone or it is not.

If it is then army is required, if not then the whole discussion including Kashmir insurgency becomes moot.

If army is required then they should be given means to defend themselves and achieve their objective - which overlaps with establishing law and order and counter insurgency grids.

Active conflict zones have well defined RoEs - It does well to remember that army is not just a shield but sword too.

The cost of inaction is often times higher than cost of wrong action. This becomes doubly true when protesters led by insurgents swarm posts, if today soldiers run away then it further incentivises such activities because insurgents know there will be no repercussions. Thereby an army establishes not only boundaries but dominance - that is its role.

Now this would undoubtedly grate on civilian sensibilities and by extension our judges who are ill equipped to deal with such matters thereby mandating internal military checks and balances and AFSPA.

It is unfortunate because Military should not be used for internal ops. This goes as far back as to roman days but situation being what it is - their presence mandated.

If we withdraw the army then floodgates will open from Pakistan who we know are always quick to seize on any space conceded be it back in 47 or as recent as Kargil and local police are illequipped to deal with the scale of insurgency which would inevitably take hold - rolling back decade of hard work since the 90s.

Instead of 100 deaths per year will go back to thousands.

 

[scorpionx]

Either Kashmir is a conflict zone or it is not.

If it is then army is required, if not then the whole discussion including Kashmir insurgency becomes moot.

If army is required then they should be given means to defend themselves and achieve their objective - which overlaps with establishing law and order and counter insurgency grids.

Active conflict zones have well defined RoEs - It does well to remember that army is not just a shield but sword too.

The cost of inaction is often times higher than cost of wrong action. This becomes doubly true when protesters led by insurgents swarm posts, if today soldiers run away then it further incentivises such activities because insurgents know there will be no repercussions. Thereby an army establishes not only boundaries but dominance - that is its role.

Now this would undoubtedly grate on civilian sensibilities and by extension our judges who are ill equipped to deal with such matters thereby mandating internal military checks and balances and AFSPA.

It is unfortunate because Military should not be used for internal ops. This goes as far back as to roman days but situation being what it is - their presence mandated.

If we withdraw the army then floodgates will open from Pakistan who we know are always quick to seize on any space conceded be it back in 47 or as recent as Kargil and local police are illequipped to deal with the scale of insurgency which would inevitably take hold - rolling back decade of hard work since the 90s.

Instead of 100 deaths per year will go back to thousands.

I am not advocating demilitarize the border, nor I am prescribing to run away when mobs attack our security forces. What I am suggesting is to first come out of the gravely mistaken notion that each and every public protest is at the behest of provocation from the other side of the border. The excesses of the security forces in the name of counter terrorism must cease. Those responsible for fake encounters and extra judicial killings, detention must be booked under the laws through a transparent judiciary system. Public safety Laws which are being horribly abused by the corrupt governments for decades after decades for their own vested interest must stop. A free and fair election and an atmosphere where Kashmiris can have an open breathing space devoid of security excesses will be the first steps to start with.

even assuming for a moment your root cause statement is true, no single state, in this case a sub-state, gets to push the union. If they do they have simply invited and justified the disciplinary actions. There is a reason law enforcement, para military and military exist.

But that assumption doesn't actually hold. Whether Pakistan is creating the problem or just fanning the flames, either case fix Pakistan. If they are creating the problem, it goes away. If they are fanning the flame, it gets much smaller.

Lets agree to disagree at this point.

 

[Spectre]

I am not advocating demilitarize the border, nor I am prescribing to run away when mobs attack our security forces. What I am suggesting is to first come out of the gravely mistaken notion that each and every public protest is at the behest of provocation from the other side of the border. The excesses of the security forces in the name of counter terrorism must cease. Those responsible for fake encounters and extra judicial killings, detention must be booked under the laws through a transparent judiciary system. Public safety Laws which are being horribly abused by the corrupt governments for decades after decades for their own vested interest must stop. A free and fair election and an atmosphere where Kashmiris can have an open breathing space devoid of security excesses will be the first steps to start with.



Lets agree to disagree at this point.

In a nutshell you speak about creating space - I acknowledge that but lets dig a bit deeper into the current case.

The whole situation sparked from killing of a terrorist. Killing of terrorist even according to you should not stop.

So we arrive at an impasse - We cannot stop killing them and they will burn Kashmir if we kill them.

In the end it comes down to territorial integrity of India - either we withdraw from Kashmir and let Pakistan have a free hand or we force them back. When we force them back - there will death, violence and bloodshed - there is no avoiding it. This is the nature of force, even innocents suffer.

The solution is simple - Either Kashmir concedes full legitimacy of Indian rule and unanimously disown all separatists. This will automatically create space and roll back war time measures such as PSA and AFSPA OR India concedes the illegitimacy of its rule, holds plebiscite and takes the very significant of risk of loosing Kashmir.

So in the end my simple of question to you is this - Are you ready for a referendum or plebiscite on Kashmir? If No, then there the current situation will continue.

 

[scorpionx]

In a nutshell you speak about creating space - I acknowledge that but lets dig a bit deeper into the current case.

The whole situation sparked from killing of a terrorist. Killing of terrorist even according to you should not stop.

So we arrive at an impasse - We cannot stop killing them and they will burn Kashmir if we kill them.

In the end it comes down to territorial integrity of India - either we withdraw from Kashmir and let Pakistan have a free hand or we force them back. When we force them back - there will death, violence and bloodshed - there is no avoiding it. This is the nature of force, even innocents suffer.

The solution is simple - Either Kashmir concedes full legitimacy of Indian rule and unanimously disown all separatists. This will automatically create space and roll back war time measures such as PSA and AFSPA OR India concedes the illegitimacy of its rule, holds plebiscite and takes the very significant of risk of loosing Kashmir.

So in the end my simple of question to you is this - Are you ready for a referendum or plebiscite on Kashmir? If No, then there the current situation will continue.

Spectre, Syed Ali Shah Geelani has tremendous capacity to influence the youth of Kashmir.He is one of the rarest of the rare leader in Kashmir who has again and again denounced the wrongs by his own people. You know what were the last three points of his famous five point formula? He suggested

1. PM should publicly commit that no killings or arrest would take place, to discipline her troops, stop humiliating people and destruction of public property 2. Release children and political prisoners and withdraw cases against youth that are pending for last twenty years 3. Conviction of troops responsible for extra judicial murder. End result, we did nothing.

What happened to the 8 point formula by Chidambaram? The state government had done practically nothing to implement and enjoys the enviable power of lack of accountability. Do these events and many others like these have helped Indians to win the trust of the Kashmiris? When old men and women, children are throwing stones with vicious hatred at us, there is a lot to introspect. kashmiris are never going to concede full legitimacy until we see them as our own and start a humanistic approach of de-alienating them from rest of India not by simply abrogating article 370 but by preserving their traditional sentiments with utmost care and respect.

I again say that a plebiscite is out of the question today. This is 2016, not 1948. The Kashmiris and Pakistanis must understand and realize this fact first. What we need is to consolidate what we have and put it through a governmental structure that will enjoy more autonomy. The Canadian experience might be interesting to apply here.

 

[Spectre]

Spectre, Syed Ali Shah Geelani has tremendous capacity to influence the youth of Kashmir.He is one of the rarest of the rare leader in Kashmir who has again and again denounced the wrongs by his own people. You know what were the last three points of his famous five point formula? He suggested

1. PM should publicly commit that no killings or arrest would take place, to discipline her troops, stop humiliating people and destruction of public property 2. Release children and political prisoners and withdraw cases against youth that are pending for last twenty years 3. Conviction of troops responsible for extra judicial murder. End result, we did nothing.

What happened to the 8 point formula by Chidambaram? The state government had done practically nothing to implement and enjoys the enviable power of lack of accountability. Do these events and many others like these have helped Indians to win the trust of the Kashmiris? When old men and women, children are throwing stones with vicious hatred at us, there is a lot to introspect. kashmiris are never going to concede full legitimacy until we see them as our own and start a humanistic approach of de-alienating them from rest of India not by simply abrogating article 370 but by preserving their traditional sentiments with utmost care and respect.

I again say that a plebiscite is out of the question today. This is 2016, not 1948. The Kashmiris and Pakistanis must understand and realize this fact first. What we need is to consolidate what we have and put it through a governmental structure that will enjoy more autonomy. The Canadian experience might be interesting to apply here.

I totally agree but then again it was Geelani who instigated Kashmiri youth after Wani was killed, infact he even boasted that he spoke to wani before his death. Case could be made for collusion against India but then whats new.

Frankly mate issue here is quite different -

It is a bitter truth but popular support is not with India and never has been. Kashmir is not an issue of autonomy or oppression but it is mostly an issue of religiously homogeneous block asserting their wish for independence or merger with similar group. If Kashmir is to be solved on our terms then demographics have to changed else we will be at the same space even after 100 years.

@Joe Shearer you will be disappointed with the above view but then how long can we be on denial. We are against popular movement in Kashmir organized along religious lines and seeking concessions by the virtue of their religion. This is the difference b/w NE and Kashmir.

 

[scorpionx]

I totally agree but then again it was Geelani who instigated Kashmiri youth after Wani was killed, infact he even boasted that he spoke to wani before his death. Case could be made for collusion against India but then whats new.

Frankly mate issue here is quite different -

It is a bitter truth but popular support is not with India and never has been. Kashmir is not an issue of autonomy or oppression but it is mostly an issue of religiously homogeneous block asserting their wish for independence or merger with similar group. If Kashmir is to be solved on our terms then demographics have to changed else we will be at the same space even after 100 years.

Was it an issue of religiously homogeneous block back in 50's?

 

[Spectre]

Was it an issue of religiously homogeneous block back in 50's?

Yes though the politics overshadowed it. Core issue has always been religious otherwise why the wish to join Pakistan?

I would though qualify it with independence being the intermediate step which they considered would be more palatable to india

 

[faithfulguy]

The problem of Kashmir is not Kashmir, but the existence of the Indian nation state created as a second hand British imperialism. Solve the root cause of the problem will resolve the Kashmir conflict. Fight the disease, not the symptom.