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So, is new media only reinforcing old stereotypes?


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your post is idiotic, get mental checkup, the kashmir is not in pakistan's occupation pakistan wished to give them self determinance, in accross the border, fake elections are staged and people are not free to determine their fate, see which area is under governance and which is under nazi occupation.

kashmiris from the day one rebelled indians and have not accepted mahrajahs decision which he gave by accepting indian bribe and being hindu.



we wish kashmiris to be free, kashmiris have chosen for a peaceful freedom movement, you dont ralize the lava which is going to errupt.

btw just few days bach indian railway track was destroyed by kashmiris

A few foot long track was destroyed and was fixed in a few hours.

and that happened after 18 of those terrorists were despatched to hell in 3 days before that as a part of Operation Khoj..
 
your post is idiotic, get mental checkup, the kashmir is not in pakistan's occupation pakistan wished to give them self determinance, in accross the border, fake elections are staged and people are not free to determine their fate, see which area is under governance and which is under nazi occupation.

Kashmir is not part pakistan and it will never be...and when you give self determinance to Kashmir which is under pakistan occupation do not forget giving the same to Gilgit and Baltistan...
with your so called azad kashmir, Gilgit and Baltistan too is part of kashmir not part pakistan which your country has engulfed and has given lolly pop(azad Kashmir ) to illiterate Kashmiri..


and about election 70% is the turnout..


from the day one rebelled indians and have not accepted mahrajahs decision which he gave by accepting indian bribe and being hindu.



B]we wish kashmiris to be free, kashmiris have chosen for a peaceful freedom movement, you dont ralize the lava which is going to errupt.
[/B]
terrorist send by your country in the name of jihadi in kashmir killed so many kashmiri and you called it peaceful. bu*lsh*t..
btw just few days bach indian railway track was destroyed by kashmiris[/quote]

they are not locals they are paid separatist....
 
your post is idiotic, get mental checkup, the kashmir is not in pakistan's occupation pakistan wished to give them self determinance, in accross the border, fake elections are staged and people are not free to determine their fate, see which area is under governance and which is under nazi occupation.

kashmiris from the day one rebelled indians and have not accepted mahrajahs decision which he gave by accepting indian bribe and being hindu.



we wish kashmiris to be free, kashmiris have chosen for a peaceful freedom movement, you dont ralize the lava which is going to errupt.

btw just few days bach indian railway track was destroyed by kashmiris


peaceful freedom movement????????
sorry sir ,I highly dout it:hitwall::hitwall:
 
Bickering aside..Some more good news... This time 4 terrorists nabbed alive..Must be getting a damaad treatment by the army by now..:guns:

:cheers:

http://news.webindia123.com/news/Articles/India/20100410/1482157.html

Hideout busted, 4 HM and Lashker militants arrested in Kashmir
Srinagar | Saturday, Apr 10 2010 IST




Security forces busted a hideout and also arrested a Lashkher-e-Taiba (LeT) and three Hizbul Mujahideen (HM) militants in the Kashmir valley overnight, official sources said here today.

A hand grenade was also recovered from a shop at Sopore.

They said on a tip off about a militant hideout, troops of 39 Rashtriya Rifles (RR) and Special Operation Group (SOG) of Jammu and Kashmir launched a joint operation at village Danwasd Gadool in south Kashmir district of Anantnag.

During the search a militant hideout was unearthed, they said adding utensils, blankets, sleeping bag, medicines and Army uniforms were recovered. However, the militants had left the hideout before the raid, they said adding no one was arrested.

They said in another operation in the frontier district of Kupwara, one Over Ground Worker (OGW) of LeT Nazir Ahmad Mir, a resident of Pahaldogi was arrested from main market Magam alongwith two hand grenades by police.

Meanwhile, 6 RR apprehended three HM militants Bilal Ahmad Wani , Imran Ahmad Wani and Mohammad Ashraf Gogri at Handwara. One AK 56, two magazines, 60 rounds and eight UBGL were recovered from their possession.

Sources said on specific information police broke open the shop of Showkat Ahmad Shalla near Hotel Plaza Sopore in Baramulla District in presence of tehsildar Sopore and some civilians. During the search one hand grenade was recovered from the shop, they said adding the shopkeeper was absconding.
 
Dr Shabir Choudhry's blog: My response to a Pakistani critic

Aslamo alaykam Bhai Sahib

1. I don’t know what to call you – teddy bear can’t be your name.

2. Anyhow I didn’t mean to cause any offence to you or anyone else. I can’t see any cause of offence, as I have only stated some facts. You have every right to disagree with what I have said, but remember we don’t always like what we see in the mirror.

3. Please get your facts right, the tribesmen did not go to J&K to ‘liberate’ us they were sent to grab Kashmir and punish the Maharaja who refused to join Pakistan; and they were told to loot and plunder the J&K. They killed, looted and raped women, Muslims and non Muslims. There is ample evidence on this, and some of it written by some honest Pakistani writers as well. I am also attaching something for your consideration.

4. With regard to 1965, again get your facts right. It is proved beyond any doubt that Operation Gibraltar was not carried out to liberate Kashmiris. I will attach a paper for your information.

5. If it was not for Pakistan we would have been independent state. It was the tribal invasion planned and supported by Pakistan which forced the Maharaja to seek help from India, hence the forced division and all the problems we face on both sides of the divide.

6. Furthermore it was Pakistani officials who complicated the matter by making it a bilateral dispute rather than an issue of right of self determination. It was they who changed the name from Kashmir issue to India and Pakistan dispute. It was Pakistani officials who suggested changes to the first UNCIP Resolution and limited Kashmiri peoples right of self determination to accession to either India or Pakistan. It was Pakistan who signed Tashkant and Shimla Pacts and practically made the Kashmir dispute a bilateral issue - and now issue of water.

7. Pakistani governments have been exploiting our resources since 1947, our hard earned foreign exchange is also used by your government; and you are not happy if our people are working in your cities. If we become independent and we have sincere leadership there, not like what Pakistan have, then it would be people from other countries including Pakistan coming to work in J&K. Even now do you know how many Pakistani people live in Gilgit Baltistan and exploit our resources? Above all in clear violation of State Subject Law they have purchased land there.

8. Do you know how many countries are there in the world without ports, so please don’t give me that?

9. As for Pakistani passport is concerned it is only a travelling document; and under the international law it is Pakistan’s obligation, but that doesn’t changes our status; as it doesn’t change status of Palestinians. Those Palestinians who live in Syria they hold Syrian passport and those who live in Egypt they hold Egyptian passport so on and so forth.

10. By the way do you know many Pakistanis living abroad, when asked do not tell others that they are from Pakistan? Does that mean anything to you?

11. If you leave our country I am sure we will be able to make a passport – it is not a rocket science. But do you think your army will leave AJK and Gilgit Baltistan – never willingly. Do you know how many millions your army is making from the resources of Neelam valley alone? I suggest you visit the area and see the plight of the people and see how the army and timber mafia and mafia associated with precious stones are exploiting the area and puppets of Muzaffarabad have no say in these matters.

12. During the time when Kashmir was independent people used to come from undivided India, Tibet, China and other countries to study there. I don’t think Pakistani education has much credibility. Once independent we can set up our own institutions, and I assure you that we will also care for educational needs of our Pakistani brothers.

13. Oh, please do tell me what your ‘official capacity’ is. Is that some kind of hidden threat? Remember we live in 2010 and not in Somalia. My friend, it should be you who should apologise for looting and plundering my country and its resources.

14. I wish Pakistan genuine democracy, stability, prosperity, and ability to live in peace with itself and with neighbours, but if and when we get independence we don’t know what will be the situation of South Asia at that time; and how many more ‘Tans’ there will be apart from Hindustan and Pakistan.

15. I have tried to be respectful and I hope you won’t get angry for showing mirror to you.

16. I hope you will find time to read them and correct wrong assumptions.

Shabir


----------------
Original post


Dr. Shabir Chaudhry,
I am a Pakistani Citizen from the South of Pakistan and after reading your reading you wrote, I have no hesitation in stating that I am seriously offended.

What you wrote makes me think that My men wasted their lives trying to provide your men the freedom and dignity in 1948 and 1965 if you wish not to join Pakistan. Did we send our Pashtoon, Punjabi and Urdu-speak to fight someone else’s war?
You seem to be quite determined to have independent state of Kashmir. Go and take it if you can without our help.

Even if you manage to get your long overdue independence, Do not come to us for handouts. How would you export your products without the access to port cities of Karachi and Gwadar? If you decide to go independent, prepare yourself to pay Govt levies in order to use our ports.

Secondly, so many Kashmiris from Azad Kashmir are working in the Lahore, Karachi and Islamabad. They will be expelled with immediate effect. Of course, if our own
citizens don’t have jobs, why will we offer jobs to Kashmiris who will be Non-Pakistanis?

We would be better off without Kashmir as my native City of Karachi contributes 70% revenues to the Govt treasury which is used to feed the economically backward valleys of Kashmir. Without Kashmir, it will only contribute 60%.:) Our army will have less area and people to protect and defend.:) You need us more than we need you.
We have oil, gas and Coal reserves in the south. Tell me something that you have in Kashmir which is of some economic value. Do you think you can run your economy on water, Barley and wheat?

As per travel, your citizens will need Pakistani visas frequently, compared to Pakistani citizens needing the Kashmiri visa. Because for tourism, we will visit NWFP or Quetta or Interior Sindh, rather than visiting Kashmir. Yet for better education, better medical treatment, you will have to visit Islamabad and Lahore. If your citizens choose to Study in our Institutes or looked for medical treatment in our Hospitals, We will certainly charge 4 times. And why should not be… You will be foreigners to us.

I don’t care what You respond, But we will not come and beg you to join us rather you will, just like Ras Al-khaima opted to stay out of UAE in 1971 but within a year came running to join it. Why”? because it could not survive alone.

If you hate “this Pakistan that you see on TV screens,” then why Your Kashmiri Citizens use Our Green Passport, call them Pakistanis while travelling abroad and bring drugs with them. Get your own passport and use that.

Thanks be to Allah that I read this on the Internet, if I had heard it in my official capacity, I would have demanded an official apology.
Teddybear
 
Q - What do you mean by Azadi (freedom) I asked him?
1. “We don’t want the Indian army here”.
2. “We want India to be out of Kashmir. We don’t want to be part of India.”
3. “We will have azadi (freedom) from India and run our own government, or join Pakistan”, he said.

sorry nothing will happen:cheers:
 
^^ Then why bother posting the bakvaas articles and someone's blogs? As if this Choudhry chap represents all of the IoK.
 
[
Dr. Shabir Chaudhry,
I am a Pakistani Citizen from the South of Pakistan and after reading your reading you wrote, I have no hesitation in stating that I am seriously offended.

What you wrote makes me think that My men wasted their lives trying to provide your men the freedom and dignity in 1948 and 1965 if you wish not to join Pakistan. Did we send our Pashtoon, Punjabi and Urdu-speak to fight someone else’s war?
You seem to be quite determined to have independent state of Kashmir. Go and take it if you can without our help.

Even if you manage to get your long overdue independence, Do not come to us for handouts. How would you export your products without the access to port cities of Karachi and Gwadar? If you decide to go independent, prepare yourself to pay Govt levies in order to use our ports.

Secondly, so many Kashmiris from Azad Kashmir are working in the Lahore, Karachi and Islamabad. They will be expelled with immediate effect. Of course, if our own
citizens don’t have jobs, why will we offer jobs to Kashmiris who will be Non-Pakistanis?

We would be better off without Kashmir as my native City of Karachi contributes 70% revenues to the Govt treasury which is used to feed the economically backward valleys of Kashmir. Without Kashmir, it will only contribute 60%.:) Our army will have less area and people to protect and defend.:) You need us more than we need you.
We have oil, gas and Coal reserves in the south. Tell me something that you have in Kashmir which is of some economic value. Do you think you can run your economy on water, Barley and wheat?

As per travel, your citizens will need Pakistani visas frequently, compared to Pakistani citizens needing the Kashmiri visa. Because for tourism, we will visit NWFP or Quetta or Interior Sindh, rather than visiting Kashmir. Yet for better education, better medical treatment, you will have to visit Islamabad and Lahore. If your citizens choose to Study in our Institutes or looked for medical treatment in our Hospitals, We will certainly charge 4 times. And why should not be… You will be foreigners to us.

I don’t care what You respond, But we will not come and beg you to join us rather you will, just like Ras Al-khaima opted to stay out of UAE in 1971 but within a year came running to join it. Why”? because it could not survive alone.

If you hate “this Pakistan that you see on TV screens,” then why Your Kashmiri Citizens use Our Green Passport, call them Pakistanis while travelling abroad and bring drugs with them. Get your own passport and use that.

Thanks be to Allah that I read this on the Internet, if I had heard it in my official capacity, I would have demanded an official apology.
Teddybear


ha ha :flame:,will cause flames like this
 
The fact is that no matter what happens, Kashmir stays with India. Anyone with any other thoughts is wasting their time.
 
This was written in the same magazine in response to Roy's piece on Kashmir.

www.outlookindia.com | The Azadi We Need

Towards the end of her impassioned piece calling for azadi for Kashmir, Arundhati Roy pauses to reflect on what might follow azadi in Kashmir, wondering what an independent Kashmir might mean, including what the independence demanded by the state's Muslim majority might mean for the state's religious or other minorities. She does well not to linger, because the thought experiment illustrates precisely what is most problematic about "national movements", namely that they are unable to think the political except through the prism of nation-states.

National movements, that is to say, see themselves as nation-states-in-waiting, and do not see any political horizon beyond that of the nation-state. So was it with the Indian national movement, and its inability to think the difference that might have been capacious enough to house the country's Muslim-majority regions; so it definitely was with the Muslim League and its two-nation theory, even more wedded to the siren song of European-style nationalism transplanted to a colonial setting; and so it is with the "copycat" nationalisms that have followed, be it Kashmir, or Punjab, or Nagaland. The failure to imagine a nation-state different from the traditional European model, the shoe-horning of Indian communitarian identities, into models conceived with the likes of Germany and England in mind, paved the way for the catastrophes of partition. The "belated" nationalisms of the post-partition sub-continent demonstrate the truth of Marx's depressing observation, namely that we learn from history that we do not learn from history.

The point is worth making given Roy's trenchant critiques of the Indian state (in the context of Kashmir, but not only of Kashmir; her essay on the Indian state and dams, The Greater Common Good, is astonishingly powerful). That is, much of Roy's critique -- of the Indian state's indifference, its callousness, its inhumanity, its cruelty -- is (or certainly ought to be) animated not by her target's Indianness, but by the fact that it is a nation-state, and as such, does what nation-states do: in the final analysis, sacrifice humanity in the service of a larger political project. The distinction is an important one, because nothing in the Kashmiri independence movement suggests that it will throw up anything different; indeed given that the movement aims at a traditional nation-state just like all the others, I submit that it cannot yield a different result. Minority rights? Justice for different communities, and between genders? The outcomes will be better than they are now, we are told by the movement, not because the aims are different from those of the existing Indian state, but because the movement will simply do a better job.

I am skeptical, and not because of the identity (religious or otherwise) of those who comprise the Kashmiri independence movement; I am skeptical because the aim of that movement is congenitally incapable of producing a result that is "better" in some cosmic sense -- at most the identities of those disadvantaged will shift, as new disfavoured minorities, new "outsiders", new "insiders", and new identity policemen are created. Roy is too sophisticated not to see this, but doesn't bother to delve into it, pretending that this is merely a question of the Kashmiri separatists not having spelled out their agenda in greater detail as yet. It is not: over half a century ago, Hannah Arendt wrote (in The Origins of Totalitarianism) of the masses of refugees and victims that seemed to accompany the birth of every new nation-state, and nothing has changed, not in the age of South Ossetia, Kosovo, Rwanda, ad nauseum.

Certainly, those of us from the sub-continent should be especially wary of political projects that promise us clean solutions to intractable political problems: we live with the legacies of the bloodbaths of the 1940s, not to mention innumerable later, "lesser" massacres. By all accounts, the leaders of the new nation-states of India and Pakistan were caught by surprise by the scale of the violence in 1947; they had evidently internalized the logic of colonialism, pursuant to which communitarian difference presents a political "problem" that may be solved by means of creative cartography and judicious population transfers. Conceptual neatness is one of the hallmarks of the colonial mindset (thinking of Cyril Radcliffe, who could doubt it?).

Unfortunately, reality is anything but, and the sub-continent's leaders -- and, even more importantly, its people -- should have learned long ago that partitions are not the solution to people's inability to live together; rather, the mindset that vests its faith in drawing easily-policed borders is a mindset that demands enemies. It is a mindset that, in the final analysis, demands that facts on the ground correspond to the political project of the nation-state (and not the other way around). A nation-state for Muslims thus becomes a state virtually free of non-Muslims; a sub-national state where Hindu pride is honoured above all else becomes a state where non-Hindus must know their place.

Why would one ever hope for anything different from a nation-state for Kashmiris, as far as those who don't fit the bill are concerned? Certainly the region is not short of candidates for stigmatisation (some of this is because India is fantastically diverse; some of it is because nation-states are rather gifted at manufacturing "problematic" identities): Buddhists; Shiites; Gujjars; perhaps even Sunni Muslims who will be deemed insufficiently supportive of the independence movement (the last is hardly far-fetched, as even a casual glance at the history of Algeria or the Khalistan movement, or Kashmir itself during the 1990s, makes clear). Indeed, several hundred thousand Kashmiri Pandits have already been driven off, and it is hard not to see in them a harbinger of more to come.

The above might seem like an odd place from which to maintain a defense of India vis-à-vis Kashmir. It is, on the contrary, a natural vantage point: the idea of an independent Kashmir for Kashmiris must be resisted precisely because, as the experience of the once-colonised has amply illustrated, nation-states are appallingly inhuman. Equally, however, they are not all inhuman in precisely the same way; nor are they all equally inhuman, by which I simply mean that they are not all equally incapable of accommodating human difference, whether communitarian or otherwise. The Germany of 2008 is manifestly not the Germany of 1938; but nor does the Germany of 2008 accommodate ethnic minorities as comfortably as the United States does.

None of this relieves any state of moral responsibility for the horrors it perpetrates; but in order to agitate against horrors, one must first understand what they are. And within the range of nation-states on offer -- all of them problematic, all of them complicit in cruelty -- it is apparent to me that those premised on explicit notions of religion, language, ethnicity, blood in some sense, are more problematic, more complicit, than those with far more modest litmus tests. The contemporary United States, Brazil, South Africa, and, yes, India, are among the latter group of nation-states; Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Pakistan, and, based on the logic of the movements, the would-be nation-states of Kashmir or Khalistan, are not. Theoretically, one does not need to be other than "wholly Bengali", "wholly Tamil", or "wholly Muslim" in order to be utterly Indian; one cannot say the same of Pakistan and its Hindus citizens, and the religious colour of the Kashmiri movement means it is almost inconceivable that this won't be true of an independent Kashmir as well (even leaving aside the obvious ethnic dimension).

Indeed, even if one were to take the likes of Yasin Malik at their word, they promise no more than Jawaharlal Nehru did, that is to say a secular state where all who live in Kashmir, of whatever ethnicity or religious persuasion, will be equal in the eyes of the state; why and how could such a project -- essentially the same Nehruvian show on a smaller stage -- yield a better result? On the contrary, all the signs are that an independent Kashmir would be more like Pakistan than India: not because both are Muslim majority (that is irrelevant to the point I am making), but because both movements are explicitly predicated on a favoured community that is less than everyone who lives within the state's borders.

Why does any of this matter? Because nation-states where "second-class" citizenship is implicit -- think the United States prior to de-segregation; I assume Roy would include India; but really one could argue some are always more equal than others in all nation-states -- can be called out on their failures. Such nation-states are guilty of hypocrisy, but hypocrisy is not the worst sin; indeed hypocrisy, by opening up a gap between theory and practice, between promise and reality, makes it possible to hold a mirror up to the state, to try and compel it to honour its own promise to itself; and enables us to argue that the nation-state is only imperfectly itself until it takes a good long look in that mirror.

In short, the point is that while the Jim Crow South is unforgiveable, the civil rights movement and Martin Luther King's "I Have a Dream" moment are possible in a USA where actual practice made a mockery of the nation-state's constitutional guarantees of equal protection under the laws; they would not be possible in the face of apartheid South Africa, which could not be reformed, simply destroyed. It is far more difficult, perhaps insurmountably so, to call the nation-state to task where it has promised and can promise nothing different than what it offers (one can rebel and try and dismantle the state, but one can't make it see the problem): beyond a point, a "Pakistan for Pakistanis", that is to say for Pakistanis of all religious persuasions, would make no sense, and would undermine the national idea (substitute "ethnicities" for "religious communities" and the idea of Pakistan becomes more flexible; it should come as no surprise that the movement for ethnic justice, greater federalism, and rights for smaller provinces, has far more legs in Pakistan than any movement for the rights of religious minorities; ethnicity illustrates the potential flexibility, but also the limits, of the idea of Pakistan; and even with respect to ethnicity, the difference of even a Bengali Muslim identity that was deemed "too Hindu" could not be accommodated within the state).

A "Kashmir for Kashmiris" is far closer to the idea of Pakistan than to the Nehru's India, and perhaps closest of all to Bangladesh, seeking to compress both 1947 and 1971 in one secessionist moment. Roy would do well to remember the "Biharis" stranded in refugee camps in Bangladesh since 1971, Muslim but not Bangladeshi enough; and she herself mentions the 1971 genocide of Bengalis by the Pakistani army, who were not Muslim enough. The promise of the Kashmiri movement combines both of these nightmares.

None of this is about the decency or lack thereof of Mirwaiz Farooq, or Yasin Malik, or anyone else. The question isn't whether these are or are not upstanding politicians who genuinely believe that Kashmir belongs to all Kashmiris, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, or Sikh, or not; the more important question concerns the logic of what they let loose in the world (more accurately, the logic that they and would-be nationalists of all stripes have attempted to replicate for decades). The azadi demanded by the Kashmiri movement, and used by Roy as a rallying cry, is not the answer to that question; the freedom we need is azadi from the mindset that thinks of peoples and communities only in terms of nation-states; and equally, an azadi that demands that the Indian state honour its promise, to itself and to us.

The nation-state as political Alpha and Omega was problematic in its European birthplaces to begin with; to continue to cling to it as the last best hope of ethnic or religious minorities in milieus like India's (or Africa's, or the Balkans'; pick your poison), in the wake of the man-made disasters that have befallen us over the last century, is nothing short of bankrupt.

Umair Ahmed Muhajir is based in New York City. When not blogging at qalandari.blogspot.com or contributing to naachgaana.com, he makes a living as a lawyer.
 
Awe some ejaz bhaiyyaaa!!!:smitten: :tup:
Exactly what I have in mind. A philosophical response to the idealistic self-proclaimed activists.
My favourite parts which are the exact same thoughts I tried to express several times but failed to do so.
Indeed, even if one were to take the likes of Yasin Malik at their word, they promise no more than Jawaharlal Nehru did, that is to say a secular state where all who live in Kashmir, of whatever ethnicity or religious persuasion, will be equal in the eyes of the state; why and how could such a project -- essentially the same Nehruvian show on a smaller stage -- yield a better result?
-------------------
so, to call the nation-state to task where it has promised and can promise nothing different than what it offers (one can rebel and try and dismantle the state, but one can't make it see the problem): beyond a point, a "Pakistan for Pakistanis", that is to say for Pakistanis of all religious persuasions, would make no sense, and would undermine the national idea


-----------------
None of this is about the decency or lack thereof of Mirwaiz Farooq, or Yasin Malik, or anyone else. The question isn't whether these are or are not upstanding politicians who genuinely believe that Kashmir belongs to all Kashmiris, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, or Sikh, or not; the more important question concerns the logic of what they let loose in the world (more accurately, the logic that they and would-be nationalists of all stripes have attempted to replicate for decades).

:yahoo:
 
on violent movement................hmm...interesting thought............what was it that Gandhi called the Britishers who used its Military against the mass polpulations during non violent protests...........hmmm, very interesting......

The oppressed become the oppressers........wow, what a headline that would make......HYPOCRISY at its best
 
@zebronic 70% election voting turnout??? can you back your great statement???

KASHMIR IS NOT INDIAN NOR PAKISTANI! KASHMIR IS FOR KASHMIRIS!

your country has engulfed and has given lolly pop(azad Kashmir ) to illiterate Kashmiri..



interesting so kashimirs shouldn't rule themselves?????
 
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