I am not shoving anything down your throat, and for clarification I am referring to Kashmiris as in those from Kashmir, not Jammu and Laddakh. What I am pointing out is that Indians are refusing to consider the possibility that the Kashmiris want the 'Azadi' to be able to determine their future status as part of Pakistan, India or independence. By refusing to deal with that possiblity, one that was in fact promised to the Kashmiris by the Indian State, it is India that is shoving pre-conditions down the throats of the Kashmiris.
This is like shying away from reality....I don't want to go down the road of why the promise was not kept but Pakistan is equally responsible for the saga...Anyways there is nothing to gain in Blame Game....I have already explained why the issue of plebiscite is complex...if you want to ignore the reality i cannot help......
The problem is that you want to discuss everything but the proverbial 'elephant in the room'.
That is wrong...I want to discuss what is relevant keeping ground reality in mind....
I am sorry, but to argue that the tens of thousands of Kashmirs are on the streets asking for 'Azadi' and abusing India is because of 'animal husbandry and agriculture' is just plain ludicrous.
This argument is reflective of a deep desire to not deal with reality.
Again wrong....So much media attention, so manu shows where Kashmiri's are invited to share their views, so much talk in political circle of ways to deal with the issue cannot be considered as shying away from reality...In fact you are shying away from reality by not accepting this fact...in your terms if only viable solution is plebiscite rest everything is shying away from reality....
As far as development is concerned then yes underdeveloped areas are prone to gullible vested interests...The reason yound pakistani's in tribal areas blowing fellow pakistani's is testamount to that.....Had Kashmir been a developed area the level of rhetoric would have been on much lower scale...So whether you like it or not lack of development has a big hand in current situation......Vested Interests have related the reason for non-development to GOI occupation....This is simple logic, if you want to ignore it i cannot help....
Industrialization is important, but why did this not happen in every single State in the Indian Union and in Pakistan before industrialization took place?
Agno, people unrest is directly related to prosperity of the country....That is the reason western countries are far more stable then Asian countries...The reason we have moists, you have problems in Baloch and other areas is directly because of development...Weren't you and I were discussing on a different thread how PA is ensuring that areas won back from Taliban should be properly developed to kill the menace for good??? Now mind it i am not saying that there are not people who wants to separate away from GOI....All i am saying is that such a level of civil unrest is not just because of Azaadi sentiments...
The people of Kashmir are not really divided about what they want. A pretty significant majority wants 'Azadi'.
That's your problem....Whom are kashmiri's representing??? State of Jammu and Kashmir or something else??? Majority of people of Jammu and Kashmir do not want Azaadi, people inside valley are divided on what exactly is the definition of Azadi...now you want to ignore all this and stick to point which is favaouring your stand, but we cannot....
How can accuse me of being 'dishonest' when your justification of 'dissatisfaction with agriculture and animal husbandry' is just plain ludicrous and unsubstantiated? Where is your data to indicate this is the reason for disenchantment with India?
I cannot recall any posters in these protests stating 'down with animal husbandry' or 'an end to agricultural jobs', or even more simply, 'where is our Industry and and where are our factories'!!
I have already explained my point many times...Ignoring it will not help....Regarding the data may i know on what database you are saying that majority of kashmiri's wan't freedom???? yes there are factions who are in favour of it, similarly there are people who are against it....Your problem is that you want to talk only about Kashmir Valley whereas i am talking about the whole state....Why are you ignoring the rest of state???
One would expect that if what you state was the primary motivation behind these protests, there would be some sign or mention of it, and such a scenario might be replicated in other regions where 'agriculture and animal husbandry' were the main professions.
Agno, are you trying to score points here???? Why are you stuck with Animal husbandry and agriculture??? Are the people in tribal areas of pakistan saying that we are bomnbing every corner of Pakistan because there is no development in these areas??? Now may i know why are you trying to develop those areas???
There are various sin-off's on the plebiscite proposal that allow for district or region wise selection, or the Chenab formula for example. And if people are being invited to share their thoughts, then why refuse to consider one very real possibility of a demand for 'Azadi to choose Pakistan, India or independence'? How is that mature, when you rule out listening to possibly the underlying cause for disenchantment?
Because mature people know that things can only be done in steps...I being a party to the conflict can come up with the maximum possible compromise...I cannot say lets talk and we will do what all you want us to do...I being a party to problem will say look i am ready to talk with you under the charter of our consitution..Lets sit and come up with a compromise formulae....
I can understand the Indian refusal to talk about the real issues and blame 'animal husbandry' - it is a disconnect with reality. Complete pullback by Pakistan is as likely as a complete pullback by India. The UNSC resolutions did not endorse it unconditionally and the UNCIP proposals on demilitarization did not endorse it either. But the rest of it can be resolved through negotiations - that is precisely why you need to 'listen' to all grievances, and be prepared to talk the issue with Pakistan. Resolution of complex issues does not come from sitting around twiddling your thumbs and refusing to acknowledge the elephant in the room.
Wow...that is completely one sided view...but i can understand that....This attitude will lead us no where...Anyways your choice....As far as issue is concerned then India is always ready to talk with Pakistan bearing enough nuts are tightened on freaks loosened by you guys....Formulae with Mush happened because India was involved in Talks, right???
The ball is in India's court on that issue. Pakistan is not the one refusing to start off where we left off.
Actually the ball is in Pakistan's court. India is ready to talk bearing you do enough on pigs in your country....anyways lets talk about the issue in hand rather then why india and pakistan are not talking....