Kashmir: If progress is to be made, India must dictate the terms

[SQ8]

That is true; Kashmiris have been spineless cowards for as long as one can remember and now we can add 'thankless basterds' to the list as well !

Well thankless aside, the "establishment" or Pakistani Think Tank has less interest in Kashmiris than it does with the strategic importance of the land. Essentially it wants to ensure that the Northern threat to Pakistan is completely finished. If that means helping Kashmirs or Klingons.. it wont matter.

 

[Judge]

Well thankless aside, the "establishment" or Pakistani Think Tank has less interest in Kashmiris than it does with the strategic importance of the land. Essentially it wants to ensure that the Northern threat to Pakistan is completely finished. If that means helping Kashmirs or Klingons.. it wont matter.

Would you say that the thinking of the Establishment has still not changed, Sir?

 

[Storm Force]

India giving up kashmir valley is like putting s dagger thru India.s heart.

Strategic vital
Maintaining the image of the regional powerhouse
Important land mass
Trade routes to neighbours
Water supply dominance
Tourism routes

 

[Armstrong]

Well thankless aside, the "establishment" or Pakistani Think Tank has less interest in Kashmiris than it does with the strategic importance of the land. Essentially it wants to ensure that the Northern threat to Pakistan is completely finished. If that means helping Kashmirs or Klingons.. it wont matter.

Everyone does the same thing; do you think the Kashmiris get chummy with Pakistan out of the goodness of their hearts ? No its quite simply because we're fully cognizant of the fact that without Pakistan we're nothing irrespective of whether Kashmir becomes a part of Pakistan or remains Independent !

Its Pakistan and Pakistanis who can bring about some change to Kashmir otherwise if our history is anything to go by we were done over by the Mughals, than the Afghans, than the Sikhs, than the Dogras and now India or Pakistan depending upon whom you're talking to - And in those 3-4 centuries we haven't even managed to stage a half-arsed rebellion let alone winning our freedom !

 

[Storm Force]

For this reason to get Kashmir you will have to destroy India completely first.

In other words impossible

 

[Armstrong]

spineless cowards? explain plz.

Just go through our history; we've been under occupation for the last few centuries and we didn't even put up a proper fight; heck during the Afghan rule over Kashmir our Muslim Brethren even used to tax funerals (or so I've read) and we all know how pro-Muslim the Sikh and Dogra rules was !

Any other ethnic group within the vicinity would've picked up arms and fought for their freedom but no...we were more content with whatever BS we were embroiled in !

 

[waz]

That bit is true; we don't consider people from AJK as true Kashmiris (sorry @waz Bhai)

P.S @Oscar - Thank deiii deiiii ga tou ghiiiisss nahin jaiii gaaa !

That's evidently true, considering the level of *** kicking the people of AJK are able to give that you guys can't.

 

[SQ8]

Would you say that the thinking of the Establishment has still not changed, Sir?

It has and to a large degree. The Pakistani establishment has moved to the idea that Kashmir cannot be won, but a situation must be created so that a more or less favourable outcome with the IB and Kashmir boundary threat. Where I mention threat I do not mean the Indian forces sitting across the working boundary or otherwise, but rather those pointed with their guns via Kashmir and by default the water supply.
This change isnt radical, but it rests on the basic notion that the state of constant conflict with India is no longer fruitful and that it is time to take advantage of India's rise for the benefit of Pakistan. Yet, there are still elements that oppose that change within the establishment so if one was to really look at it the Pakistani establishment is in a state of flux.

India's establishment (or Think tank) too has been changing but sadly this has not been helping the change within the other side along.
Ive talked on this idea of establishment a little more here.
China/Pakistan/India - Was Nehru smarter than Modi? | Page 29

 

[livingdead]

Just go through our history; we've been under occupation for the last few centuries and we didn't even put up a proper fight; heck during the Afghan rule over Kashmir our Muslim Brethren even used to tax funerals (or so I've read) and we all know how pro-Muslim the Sikh and Dogra rules was !

Any other ethnic group within the vicinity would've picked up arms and fought for their freedom but no...we were more content with whatever BS we were embroiled in !

are you talking about punjabis or kashmiris

 

[Judge]

It has and to a large degree. The Pakistani establishment has moved to the idea that Kashmir cannot be won, but a situation must be created so that a more or less favourable outcome with the IB and Kashmir boundary threat. Where I mention threat I do not mean the Indian forces sitting across the working boundary or otherwise, but rather those pointed with their guns via Kashmir and by default the water supply.
This change isnt radical, but it rests on the basic notion that the state of constant conflict with India is no longer fruitful and that it is time to take advantage of India's rise for the benefit of Pakistan. Yet, there are still elements that oppose that change within the establishment so if one was to really look at it the Pakistani establishment is in a state of flux.

India's establishment (or Think tank) too has been changing but sadly this has not been helping the change within the other side along.
Ive talked on this idea of establishment a little more here.
China/Pakistan/India - Was Nehru smarter than Modi? | Page 29

I see.
I will reply to your post in 2 parts. One that is focused on India, the other that is focused on Pakistan.

India:
It is my understanding of the situation that your post in the other thread is mostly correct, not fully. Modi is as of this moment almost completely focused on revitalizing India. It may/may not have come across to you but towards the last 4 years, there had been a sense of despondency all around because of the GoI. The moribound GoI that was loathe to take any decision and the consequent doldrums Indian economy started falling in gradually.

Now Modi understands that war or rather war rhetoric will not fetch him any votes. It is as much a canard as 'Secularism' was that Congress was playing and they got ousted..badly. The people have slowly but finally started recognizing canards when they see it while voting. This is to say that the public enjoys the slogans and bombast, but will make clear hard headed calculations when they go to vote. An example of this is BJPs utter failure in the bypolls last month in UP. Where they left their developmental agenda and used complete hindutva campaigning.

In the next Haryana and Maharashtra polls, BJP went back to developmental and good governance agenda and BJP got majority votes.
Now, Modi knows he does not have a country that is strong enough to sit at the global high table, is not strong enough economically to be able to impose its decisions on the world community...and most importantly, he knows that unless he sets the path to economic revival, he is going to be booted in the next elections as surely as the sun rises in the East.

And practically all Modi's actions have been towards this end - he has started doing reforms. Has boldly announced that he will bring down India's ease of doing business rank from 134 currently to under 50 by 2016. For reference - we are the last in rankings in entire South Asia. And China is around rank 90. All courtesy our endemic red tape culture.

He is almost completely focused on economy. His foreign policy has 99% economics in it. A complete U-turn from our earlier foreign policy that had a sanctimonious, ideological component of 99% from the Nehruvian era onwards.

He intends to be elected twice. He knows the formula to get elected. He has hit the ground running on it from day 1...because it takes 4-5 years for any developmental activity to start showing on the ground and for people to actually start 'feeling' the statistics of economic revival.

Pakistan:

Christine Fair seems to differ with your assessment almost entirely. She feels that the views in PA are still the old ones. That 'conflict with India' for Pakistan is a goal in itself because it causes India problems - not particularly because Pakistan wants to gain something from that(it does, but both are equally important). That the conflict is still viewed as a 'civilizational' and 'ideological' conflict rather than a conflict of 'interests' in the establishment.

What do you think? Or does the truth lie somewhere in between - ie between what you say and what Ms Palmer says.

 

[VCheng]

It has and to a large degree. The Pakistani establishment has moved to the idea that Kashmir cannot be won, but a situation must be created so that a more or less favourable outcome with the IB and Kashmir boundary threat. Where I mention threat I do not mean the Indian forces sitting across the working boundary or otherwise, but rather those pointed with their guns via Kashmir and by default the water supply.
This change isnt radical, but it rests on the basic notion that the state of constant conflict with India is no longer fruitful and that it is time to take advantage of India's rise for the benefit of Pakistan. Yet, there are still elements that oppose that change within the establishment so if one was to really look at it the Pakistani establishment is in a state of flux.

There is no evidence to support what you claim here Sir. There is plenty of evidence to show that the same fossilized thinking that has gone into maintaining the stalemate in Kashmir with the occasional fireworks is still strong and paramount in the corridors of real power in Pakistan.

 

[SQ8]

There is no evidence to support what you claim here Sir. There is plenty of evidence to show that the same fossilized thinking that has gone into maintaining the stalemate in Kashmir with the occasional fireworks is still strong and paramount in the corridors of real power in Pakistan.

Please read my earlier post for evidence. You have to read the dailies in Pakistan from 2004-2011 for evidence mentioned therein.

 

[Armstrong]

Please read my earlier post for evidence. You have to read the dailies in Pakistan from 2004-2011 for evidence mentioned therein.

You UPwalaas would never want us Kashmiris to have our freedom; all you're interested in is minting money !

Dost aisaa hotaa haiii kiyaaa ?

 

[VCheng]

Please read my earlier post for evidence. You have to read the dailies in Pakistan from 2004-2011 for evidence mentioned therein.

Those are only smokescreens Sir. When push comes to shove, we always see the old guard's mentality abundantly and stubbornly in evidence.

 

[SQ8]

Those are only smokescreens Sir. When push comes to shove, we always see the old guard's mentality abundantly and stubbornly in evidence.

That can also apply to you. So its a matter of perspective huzoor.