Kashmir Day Today

[Flintlock]

^^^Python here is right. The west is simply not interested in an independent Kashmiri state. The last thing they want is another potentially unstable islamic state to be created, further complicating the geopolitics of the already volatile region.

 

[Surya]

If religion/language/culture is the only criteria for redrawing border than many countries across the globe and that includes pakistan would have to redraw the border. Probably tomorrow afganistan would come forward as well saying that people in bordering area more resemble to them so they should be with afganistan rather than with pakistan.

 

[Spring Onion]

They treat kashmir problem as Islamic terrorism.

^^^Python here is right. The west is simply not interested in an independent Kashmiri state. The last thing they want is another potentially unstable islamic state to be created, further complicating the geopolitics of the already volatile region.

If religion/language/culture is the only criteria for redrawing border than many countries across the globe and that includes pakistan would have to redraw the border. Probably tomorrow afganistan would come forward as well saying that people in bordering area more resemble to them so they should be with afganistan rather than with pakistan.

Kashmir struggle has never been based on religious or cultural lines.
Rather Kashmiris are struggling for their own land which was illegally occupied by India.
Its another shameless try by all of you here to deceive the forum members by terming Kashmir struggle based on religion.
Kashmir freedom fight was never ever based on religious of cultural lines.

So arguments of all of you three are just a pathatic try to decieve the world.

 

[Flintlock]

Kashmir struggle has never been bases on religious or cultural lines.
Rather Kashmiris are struggling for their own land which was illegally occupied by India.
Its another shameless try by all of you here to deceive the forum members by terming Kashmir struggle based on religion.
Kashmir freedom fight was never ever based on religious of cultural lines.

So arguments of all of you three are just a pathatic try to decieve the world.

Well, if its not religion, or culture, then what is the reason for Kashmiris wanting to separate?

By that logic, no part of India should remain because they are all being illegally occupied by Delhi!!

Unfortunately, the separatism has mostly been a religious one. I am not deceiving, but this is my true opinion.

Try looking up the details of the "freedom fighters" that Pakistan has been sending across the border. Don't tell me they are fighting for secularism or democracy.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

In the absence of any "material support" for Kashmiris, Pakistan can hardly be accused of "ignoring" problems at home while promoting the Kashmir cause - it is simply a facet of our foreign policy whereby we would like to continue to make efforts towards the resolution of a territorial dispute with India - a dispute in which we also believe the people of that territory side with Pakistan.

Even if one accepts "support" for the Kashmiri "freedom fighters" prior to 2002, it amounts to a pittance, nothing that can be conclusively linked to resource shortfalls that could have been used for "nation building".

The reality is that it Kashmir is an internationally recognized territorial dispute, and until its resolution Pakistan is completely within its rights to raise the issue however it wants.

 

[Spring Onion]

Well, if its not religion, or culture, then what is the reason for Kashmiris wanting to separate?

By that logic, no part of India should remain because they are all being illegally occupied by Delhi!!

Unfortunately, the separatism has mostly been a religious one. I am not deceiving, but this is my true opinion.

sheer Hypocracy what you indians will come up after killing so many innocent Kashmiris.

Go and check the facts why Kashmiris want Freedom.

Kashmir Struggle has Never been based on Religion of Culture.

This is another cunning idea you Indians come up now with to throw dust in eyes of the world.

SA its realy shamless the least i could say about this statment from you.

 

[Spring Onion]

Reality of killing terrorists in Indian Held Kashmir


Friday, February 02, 2007




SRINAGAR: Police in Indian-held Kashmir (IHK) exhumed the body of a man believed to be a carpenter whom the authorities had deliberately branded a Pakistan-based Islamist militant and said was killed in a joint police-army operation, a day after the Jammu and Kashmir chief minister had ordered a probe into the disappearance, vowing that any police official found guilty of wrongdoing would be subjected to “exemplary punishment”.

The father of missing carpenter, Abdul Rahman Paddar, 35, collapsed in tears upon seeing the body, saying that he needed no medical analysis of the remains to know that it was his son.

“I can tell you the body is of my son. I can recognise him. He is my blood,” said a sobbing Ghulam Rasool Padder at Sumbhal town, 40 kilometres north of Srinagar.

Reporters at the graveyard where the body had been buried said that part of the face had been mutilated.

As the body was brought out of the ground, thousands of villagers pelted the police with stones, while shouting, “punish the killer policemen”. Police then used tear gas and batons to drive the crowd back.

An AFP photographer at the scene said that several villagers sustained injuries.

Authorities said they were preparing to conduct DNA tests on the body to determine its identity.

The exhumation came after New York-based Human Rights Watch earlier this week slammed the killing as an “extra-judicial execution” at the hands of police, while urging India to tackle the problem of fake encounter killings by its security forces.

Similarly, the leading rights group in IHK - Kashmir’s Coalition of Civil Society – also said earlier this week that 44 people had disappeared from the area in 2006, the majority of whom had been picked up by security forces.

Abdul Rahman disappeared December 8 after arriving in Srinagar and was shot dead a day later.

A report in the Indian Express newspaper asserted that Abdul Rahman had been arrested by Srinagar police, who later described him as a Multan-based member of the Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT), adding that he had been killed in a gun battle.

On Monday, authorities in Srinagar confirmed that the carpenter had been killed in a staged encounter and falsely identified as an Islamist militant. Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Ghulam Nabi Azad on the same day said that Senior Superintendent of Police (SSP) Ganderbal Hans Raj Parihar his deputy Bahadur Ram had been demoted, while two other police officers had been arrested over the incident.

The two detained officers had been rewarded with cash and honours after the alleged gun battle, while newspapers have said that they confessed to the killing before identifying the grave where Abdul Rahman he had been buried.

Police said they were also investigating three additional cases where civilians were allegedly killed and later described by police as Islamist militants.

Indian human rights groups say that 8,000 Kashmiri Muslims have gone missing in the region since 1989, most of them after being detained by security forces.

The government puts the number at between 1,000 and 3,900. afp

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

 

[Flintlock]

In the absence of any "material support" for Kashmiris, Pakistan can hardly be accused of "ignoring" problems at home while promoting the Kashmir cause - it is simply a facet of our foreign policy whereby we would like to continue to make efforts towards the resolution of a territorial dispute with India - a dispute in which we also believe the people of that territory side with Pakistan.

I'd disagree with that. Pakistani politicians have been accused of getting mass votes by promising the moon, i.e. Kashmir.

Are you arguing that Pakistan has never provided material support to the terrorists? This i think is wrong.

I can understand that destabilizing India is indeed a facet of Pakistan's foreign policy, but I think it is time to leave this behind, and focus on improving relations between the two nations and have a lasting peace in the region.

Even if one accepts "support" for the Kashmiri "freedom fighters" prior to 2002, it amounts to a pittance, nothing that can be conclusively linked to resource shortfalls that could have been used for "nation building".

That wasn't my point. What I was trying to say, is that Kashmir issue has been misused by politicians (Indians are also guilty of this) to buy votes and nothing much else.

The separatist movement itself was arguably sparked by Pakistan, just like the Khalistan movement.

Such policies don't help either the Kashmiris or the Pakistanis. They just created unnecessary suffering.

The reality is that it Kashmir is an internationally recognized territorial dispute, and until its resolution Pakistan is completely within its rights to raise the issue however it wants.

Of course, no one is questioning the rights of Pakistan.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I'd disagree with that. Pakistani politicians have been accused of getting mass votes by promising the moon, i.e. Kashmir.

That wasn't my point. What I was trying to say, is that Kashmir issue has been misused by politicians (Indians are also guilty of this) to buy votes and nothing much else.

I think there is this ridiculous perception amongst the Indian intelligentsia (or maybe they just like highlighting it that way) and the average Indian that Kashmir is used to buy politicians votes, and all else is forgotten by the electorate. Elections in Pakistan still function on the basis of Biradri and Tribe, and when you listen to the complaints of the average Pakistani, they don't complain about "Abhi Tak Kashmir azad kyoon Nahin Hua?!" (why is kashmir not free yet) they complain about, Roti, Kapra, makan and services. Mentioning Kashmir is simply a way to flash your "patriotism" for these politicians.

I can understand that destabilizing India is indeed a facet of Pakistan's foreign policy, but I think it is time to leave this behind, and focus on improving relations between the two nations and have a lasting peace in the region.

The separatist movement itself was arguably sparked by Pakistan, just like the Khalistan movement.

Such policies don't help either the Kashmiris or the Pakistanis. They just created unnecessary suffering.

On the contrary it can be argued that encouraging separatist tendencies and "meddling" has also been a facet of India's foreign policy (Baluchistan, East Pakistan and elsewhere), and some would argue still is - but such accusations do not lead anywhere, since neither side has clean hands, so lets drop it. The diplomatic, peaceful resolution of the Kashmir dispute is a facet of Pakistan's foreign policy, and in that regard Musharraf has made several proposals that are represent "out of the box thinking". But in the absence of any final resolution, Pakistan should still raise the issue however it sees fit.

Of course, no one is questioning the rights of Pakistan.

So we agree then that there is nothing wrong with having a "Kashmir Day"!

 

[Flintlock]

I think there is this ridiculous perception amongst the Indian intelligentsia (or maybe they just like highlighting it that way) and the average Indian that Kashmir is used to buy politicians votes, and all else is forgotten by the electorate. Elections in Pakistan still function on the basis of Biradri and Tribe, and when you listen to the complaints of the average Pakistani, they don't complain about "Abhi Tak Kashmir azad kyoon Nahin Hua?!" (why is kashmir not free yet) they complain about, Roti, Kapra, makan and services. Mentioning Kashmir is simply a way to flash your "patriotism" for these politicians.

If that was indeed the case, we really wouldn't see things like "kashmir day" happening in Pakistan. Its pretty clear that (atleast some) Pakistanis have been sold the idea that kashmiris are suffering brothers etc. etc.

If not politicians, then who may I ask might be responsible for this?

There is no widespread movement celebrating "LTTE Day" or something of the sort in Tamil Nadu. The reason isn't because the tamils don't care about Sri Lankan Tamils. Its because the central government has made sure that no politicians go around rallying emotions.

On the contrary it can be argued that encouraging separatist tendencies and "meddling" has also been a facet of India's foreign policy (Baluchistan, East Pakistan and elsewhere), and some would argue still is - but such accusations do not lead anywhere, since neither side has clean hands, so lets drop it. The diplomatic, peaceful resolution of the Kashmir dispute is a facet of Pakistan's foreign policy, and in that regard Musharraf has made several proposals that are represent "out of the box thinking". But in the absence of any final resolution, Pakistan should still raise the issue however it sees fit.

If Indeed Indian agencies have been meddling in Pakistan, it is mostly reactionary, and simply not on the same scale as the Pakistani efforts.

I think the efficacy of ISI has been discussed to the death. No need to bring this up...perhaps the "ISI Fan Club" can better explain their exploits.

I'll agree that Musharraf has turned things around, but every time I say that, the Kargil war keeps popping into my head.....Musharraf was the main guy behind that misadventure.

Maybe Musharraf has changed......but who knows?

So we agree then that there is nothing wrong with having a "Kashmir Day"!

Definitely...Pakistanis are free to celebrate "Kashmir day" or whatever. My point is that it doesn't help to improve relations between the two countries...or solve the problem.

 

[Flintlock]

sheer Hypocracy what you indians will come up after killing so many innocent Kashmiris.

Go and check the facts why Kashmiris want Freedom.

Kashmir Struggle has Never been based on Religion of Culture.

This is another cunning idea you Indians come up now with to throw dust in eyes of the world.

SA its realy shamless the least i could say about this statment from you.

So what is their clinching reason to separate? Please do tell me.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The celebration of Kashmir day does not indicate that the politicians are getting votes because of it. We also celebrate labor day, that on its own does not indicate that "labor" is the overwhelming issue for voters.

The projection of kashmir as the "end all issue" in Pakistan serves to further an Indian narrative of "Pakistani obsession" - it fits in with the story of "Pakistanis have been brainwashed", but like I mentioned in my earlier post, when you listen to the issues Pakistanis are concerned with, when you listen top what they expect from their politicians, it is not "Free kashmir", but what every other person in the world expects from their government. Kashmir is an issue of national importance, I won't deny that, but it is nowhere close to what you are suggesting. It cannot be ignored because it is an unresolved territorial dispute with emotional ties. Talking about an LTTE day is not a apt comparison, unless India has claims to some land in Sri lanka.

If kashmir was Indian territory, and not disputed, I would agree with your assertion that celebrating Kashmir Day (or any such occasion) vitiates the atmosphere, but it is a recognized territorial dispute, the GoP's official position is known by the GoI, so there is nothing new or unusual in this. Now if Pakistan had an official "Khalistan Day", or an "Assam Day" or something, that would indeed be problematic, and better comparable to the "Tamil Day" you mentioned.

I think talking about "reactive" depends upon ones perspective, and I would rather not get into another argument of "who did it first"- it is sufficient to realize that both sides have been involved in "interventionist policies".

Kargil is a bit of a blot on the Pakistani side, given the peace initiatives in play at the time One defense is that it was similar in nature to the Siachin "invasion" (Pakistani version). Nonetheless, not an opportune time to carry it out. I personally believe Musahrraf has changed since he has been in power. I think he has realized that Pakistan's future remains in economic growth, not confrontation. if he hadn't changed, there would never have been any cessation in hostilities on the LOC, not marked drop in cross border infiltration, no CBM's, and especially no move away from the demand for an implementation of UN resolutions to resolve Kashmir. But Musharraf is pretty much on his way out, I'll be surprised if he lasts the entire five years, so what he believes is not important anymore. Look to the next elected government, and both the PPP and PML seem to be interested in lasting peace, though the PML-N officially does not seem to be anywhere where close to as flexible as Musharraf was.

 

[Flintlock]

The celebration of Kashmir day does not indicate that the politicians are getting votes because of it. We also celebrate labor day, that on its own does not indicate that "labor" is the overwhelming issue for voters.

The projection of kashmir as the "end all issue" in Pakistan serves to further an Indian narrative of "Pakistani obsession" - it fits in with the story of "Pakistanis have been brainwashed", but like I mentioned in my earlier post, when you listen to the issues Pakistanis are concerned with, when you listen top what they expect from their politicians, it is not "Free kashmir", but what every other person in the world expects from their government. Kashmir is an issue of national importance, I won't deny that, but it is nowhere close to what you are suggesting. It cannot be ignored because it is an unresolved territorial dispute with emotional ties. Talking about an LTTE day is not a apt comparison, unless India has claims to some land in Sri lanka.

I"ll explain why I'm comparing it to "LTTE Day".

I remember seeing a video of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, saying "Kashmiris are our kith and kin". I don't know how many Pakistanis believe that kashmiris are indeed their kith and kin, but it did seem to be the USP to me.

It would be as easy as snapping fingers to get Tamils in India onto the streets, and joining the Tamil Eelam movement, but it hasn't happened.

If kashmir was Indian territory, and not disputed, I would agree with your assertion that celebrating Kashmir Day (or any such occasion) vitiates the atmosphere, but it is a recognized territorial dispute, the GoP's official position is known by the GoI, so there is nothing new or unusual in this.

Then why a public holiday? It seems to me like a completely populist idea!!

All the news articles on the topic seem to talk about their "inalienable right to freedom" etc. I don't think that has anything to do with territorial dispute. Infact, Pakistan is openly supporting the separatists.

Doesn't that vitiate the atmosphere?

I wonder what Pakistan would say if India reciprocated with a "Pakistan Occupied Kashmir Day" or something similar.

I think talking about "reactive" depends upon ones perspective, and I would rather not get into another argument of "who did it first"- it is sufficient to realize that both sides have been involved in "interventionist policies".

K...agreed..lets put that aside for the moment.

 

[EagleEyes]

"Judging by India's recent brutalities we shouldn't expect elections in Kashmir in the near future.India has used force to keep its federation. They used force in Jundagh, Hyderabad, Goa, Kashmir and many other places."

And what would you call PA's ongoing action in FATA. Are not they using force to keep the federation? It really depends how you look at it. If people resorting to violence are termed as freedom fighters in Kashmir and any action by millitary action against them is termed as supression, how come the views change against people in balochistan and Fata when they take arm against the gov.
It really depends which side of the fence you are standing. For one it could be freedom fighting and for others it could be terrorism.

What are you talking about? Go learn the difference between FATA and Kashmir, then come back.

 

[EagleEyes]

If religion/language/culture is the only criteria for redrawing border than many countries across the globe and that includes pakistan would have to redraw the border. Probably tomorrow afganistan would come forward as well saying that people in bordering area more resemble to them so they should be with afganistan rather than with pakistan.

Its more to do with the idea of Pakistan than any religion/language/culture. Kashmir, Bangladesh, and all the other dominated Muslim areas were set to be given indepedence.

Are you Indian? You should know this.