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Kashmir buries its young armed resistance leader Burhan Wani among tears.

@WAJsal Thanks for the tag on an issue which is, at best, distasteful for me.

As @Joe Shearer has said a few times on the matter of Kashmir, and I share his views here, the objective of the Indian Armed Forces was 'to reduce the level of violence in order to facilitate a political dialogue'.What the problem remains, is the failure of the political class to reach a solution. That is the reason for misery of the Kashmiris today.

If you do get a chance to visit the valley, you will find that majority of people are bereft of good governance and basic amenities as citizens. This is the abject failure of the Local Government. Corruption is rampant (as is bound to be), municipal services merely on paper, employment opportunity non-existent, and a terrible nexus between the Hurriyat and Politicians wherein both sides are making stupendous financial gains at the cost of the common people.

Having said that, I have tried to tell people that you may label them as militants/terrorists but even the Indian Army gives them a decent burial and gives the body back to the local authorities and family in order to give them a suitable last rite as per their religious custom. The official thinking of the Indian Soldier and Indian Army in this scenario is, that they are fighting for their belief and are humans at the end of the day, hence their remains deserve to be treated with respect.

But I must also point out the fact that it is the PA which is right now the biggest obstacle in reaching a final settlement, it has ratcheted up issues of security of eastern border whenever there have been moves to reach a political decision.

Without delving into Pathankot incident, one can easily make out that overtime there is some concrete effort made towards peace, there is some incident to derail it. What needs to be done, again in my opinion, is to strengthen the civil leadership of Pakistan and withdrawal of Pakistani Army from all issues pertaining to things other than security against external aggression. But is Pakistan willing to send its army back to barracks from the policy making centre? That remains the biggest challenge

The agreement which could not be between Man Mohan Singh and General Musharraf, is and remains the only sensible solution. However, MMS' inability to push through on it and the General's departure from the hell of affairs have driven the nail into the solution.
 
Edit: To all the Indian members i am a Gilgiti(and a proud Pakistani) and would prefer if you take my views from a neutral perspective.

RIP to the innocent who had to die:(; when will India learn that such use of force on civilians is only going to create more problems? Only going to urge the youth to take up arms...

I was disgusted by some of the comments Indian members had made regarding these protesters, labeling them all terrorists and celebrating their death. They are local people, opposing your forces, how blind and delusional are you going to get?
View attachment 316622


And secondly, i would want Indina members to ask themselves a few things, but first let take a look at these images...
img_20160709_165914-jpg.316469


img_20160709_165909-jpg.316468



img_20160709_165846-jpg.316467



Are these just 50 peoples who have been paid 50 rupees by the ISI in the funeral? (that logic btw:hitwall:)

Are these just a small faction of people in Jammu Kashmir? (PS: Curfew, mobile service and internet service cut-off)

What result is killing innocent people protesting for their rights going to yield? instead of more chaos.
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Indian intellectuals need to stand up, how long are they going to keep quite on these issues(Seriously @Joe Shearer , and i guess you have remained in-active for the very reason. I hope you don't go through some of the threads, the filth is unbearable). Secondly, popular mentality in India(referring to the images posted below) needs to put aside their hatred for Pakistan and look to swallow the bitter pill. Killing, de-religionizing, or a demographic change in Kashmir will not lead to any result you think it will lead to...
View attachment 316624


View attachment 316625


Poor Kashmiris suffering from the hatred for Pakistan our Indian friends have...

@hellfire ,@Joe Shearer ,@Gufi ,@HRK ,@Arsalan , and others...



And then what? you will continue to kill innocent protesters too? logically speaking will that solve problems or create more? don't you think it's better to solve this in a better manner, bloody affair has never solved a problem. No wonder we never learn anything from history. Hatred for Pakistan needs to be put aside...


At end we Indians are earning a lot of benefits from our nation .So it is our duty to protect our nation ,her honour ,her integrity ,sovreignity .And that gives us pride and pride about our nation .Not only pride but protection .Most important thing infact is protection from invaders and exploiters from other parts of world .
We are protected by this nation .So if any one be it from Kashmir or Kanyakumari tries to undermine our nation .We will respond .Tomorrow if some other in our own state Kerala do that they will also get same treatment .

You can trust whatever you want for all I care.

If "lots" of them does then why 7 lakh indian occupier terrorists?


Again you are just humiliating yourself with little knowledge .
7 lakh really ?
 
The agreement which could not be between Man Mohan Singh and General Musharraf, is and remains the only sensible solution. However, MMS' inability to push through on it and the General's departure from the hell of affairs have driven the nail into the solution.

It was Pakistan Army under General Kayani who rejected the Musharraf Formula

Anyway it was Impractical for us too

The Reduction of forces on the LOC was an INVITATION to invaders
You cannot have free movement without security checks

If "lots" of them does then why 7 lakh indian occupier terrorists?

Because we DO NOT want Pakistan to invade and occupy Kashmir

Secondly given the size of our Army we can send 5 Lakhs More if required
 
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Edit: To all the Indian members i am a Gilgiti(and a proud Pakistani) and would prefer if you take my views from a neutral perspective.

RIP to the innocent who had to die:(; when will India learn that such use of force on civilians is only going to create more problems? Only going to urge the youth to take up arms...

I was disgusted by some of the comments Indian members had made regarding these protesters, labeling them all terrorists and celebrating their death. They are local people, opposing your forces, how blind and delusional are you going to get?
View attachment 316622


And secondly, i would want Indina members to ask themselves a few things, but first let take a look at these images...
img_20160709_165914-jpg.316469


img_20160709_165909-jpg.316468



img_20160709_165846-jpg.316467



Are these just 50 peoples who have been paid 50 rupees by the ISI in the funeral? (that logic btw:hitwall:)

Are these just a small faction of people in Jammu Kashmir? (PS: Curfew, mobile service and internet service cut-off)

What result is killing innocent people protesting for their rights going to yield? instead of more chaos.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Indian intellectuals need to stand up, how long are they going to keep quite on these issues(Seriously @Joe Shearer , and i guess you have remained in-active for the very reason. I hope you don't go through some of the threads, the filth is unbearable). Secondly, popular mentality in India(referring to the images posted below) needs to put aside their hatred for Pakistan and look to swallow the bitter pill. Killing, de-religionizing, or a demographic change in Kashmir will not lead to any result you think it will lead to...
View attachment 316624


View attachment 316625


Poor Kashmiris suffering from the hatred for Pakistan our Indian friends have...

@hellfire ,@Joe Shearer ,@Gufi ,@HRK ,@Arsalan , and others...



And then what? you will continue to kill innocent protesters too? logically speaking will that solve problems or create more? don't you think it's better to solve this in a better manner, bloody affair has never solved a problem. No wonder we never learn anything from history. Hatred for Pakistan needs to be put aside...

Hon'ble @WAJsal

Let me put it in the way you will understand

If there is armed resistance against the state in Balochistan, FATA and other frontier reasons? Does Pakistani Army welcome them with petals and garlands? Or do they bring forth the wrath of full Pakistan state encompassing Jets, Helicopters and Tanks?

When Pakistani Army gives notice to civilians to evacuate an area where ops are planned and if someone does not evacuate then are they not all considered terrorists. Collateral damage be damned?

I am sympathetic to the angst of Kashmiris but let there be no mistake - For any man and woman taking up arms against the Union Of India there is only one outcome - DEATH or INCARCERATION. No matter if they have 1 or thousand or million strong well wishers behind them.

The day Burhan picked up that AK - His fate was sealed. Such people are no worse than suicide bombers for they know their fate - undeniable death.

And who are the policeman - hundreds of them who got injured and few probably killed. KASHMIRI MUSLIMS

So my sincere if unsolicited advice to you is this -

Sovereignty of India is sacrosanct. It doesn't matter if all of Kashmir -3 Million strong take up arms against India. Their tears, their pleas, their violence, their protests, their untimely deaths will not move us. Not one inch of territory will be given.

We Indians including @Joe Shearer may have different ideas on how to approach the problem and arrive at different conclusions, some of us may even sympathize with Kashmiris but whatever be our internal divisions we will stand united behind India and none of us approve the violence exhibited by the protesters which compelled the police and crpf to respond.

These protestors were nor saints, they pelted stones, fired bullets, they snatched weapons, they burnt posts, they kidnapped and probably murdered 3 Policemen and if not stopped they would have cause much more misery and mayhem. So they got what they deserved. When you have problems - you approach the Govt on the platforms provided to you. THIS IS JUST NOT DONE and the deaths are on their own head.

Regards
 
RIP to the innocent who had to die:(; when will India learn that such use of force on civilians is only going to create more problems? Only going to urge the youth to take up arms...

That is a debatable point - innocent. Had it been a pro-azadi guy who had been killed because he fought elections and won, I would have agreed to your contention there. But he took up arms against a nation state, and by no logic of nation state and its constitution (herein specifically Article 1.1 of Indian Constitution), anyone who takes up arms against a nation has right to life. So not exactly a neutral observation from you here.

If he does not like India, he was not being stopped from leaving the country and moving out. Hell, even I don't like tonnes of things of this country, and am now planning to move out.


I was disgusted by some of the comments Indian members had made regarding these protesters, labeling them all terrorists and celebrating their death. They are local people, opposing your forces, how blind and delusional are you going to get?

Under active control of an external state. However, as I have read some of Pakistani members' comments which were downright distasteful, I can understand their rants.

But, as I said earlier, he fought for his belief and he died for it. So, good for him. As an Indian, good for us too.

But have you wondered why he was not eliminated till date?

And secondly, i would want Indina members to ask themselves a few things, but first let take a look at these images...
img_20160709_165914-jpg.316469


img_20160709_165909-jpg.316468



img_20160709_165846-jpg.316467

Are you aware that there were no forces in Tral? Deployment was not done to stop people from going as it was expected, a huge turnout. Hence, forces were not deployed.

Do you think, that had the aim been to ensure no one turns up, the body would have been handed over to kins? What do you think is the reason behind body being handed over to the kin for a burial which would attract a mass of people and create potential unrest in the valley? Maybe you would like to think on this line ....


Killing, de-religionizing, or a demographic change in Kashmir will not lead to any result you think it will lead to...

You are mistaken there.

There has been no instance wherein de-religionizing has been done. In fact, in Bandipore, a madrassa teaches the Indian forces are occupying forces and we have never moved against it .... so your contention is wrong here.

Secondly, the demography was changed by the anti-Pandit campaign by Kashmiri muslims in 1988-93 period. The Indian state had all the legitimacy to move in to stop the religious considerations based actions of making Kashmir a purely Muslim area. However, the central government till date has not taken a step to address this travesty of justice to the millions of pandits who remain displaced till date.

Now a plan to relocate them to their ancestral homeland is being done and the issue is being twisted into a demographic change?

Had that been the plan, Indians would have been allowed to settle in Kashmir and marry there .. that would have changed the demography. Something that, sir, has happened across LC in areas adjoining LC as you are aware.


And then what? you will continue to kill innocent protesters too? logically speaking will that solve problems or create more? don't you think it's better to solve this in a better manner, bloody affair has never solved a problem. No wonder we never learn anything from history. Hatred for Pakistan needs to be put aside...

Sir, I share your despair here. Like many Pakistani members (like windjammer et al) are gleefully pointing out that this is a situation reminiscent of 1991, it pains me equally to point out that yes indeed it is. The only difference this time is - Pakistan won't be backing them at the level they did in 1991, the response of Indian State will be more forceful, and again a whole generation of Kashmiris will be 'culled'!

Additionally, this time no one, not even the international community will bat an eyelid as we go about suppressing it forcefully.

Sad indeed.
 
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NEVER in this History of the WORLD ; a Much BIGGER POWER has bent before a Smaller power

India will Never bend before Pakistan ; so please Forget about Kashmir
See that is the problem. As i said before, Kashmiris are suffering from the hatred for Pakistan that Indians have.

You don't have to bend before Pakistan, what about Kashmiris? Doesn't matter really, i think you might as well be in favor of killing all the Kashmiris to solve the problem if needed. See we don't have a problem being the occupier but have a problem being occupied. We have forgotten the British Raj too fast.

At end we Indians are earning a lot of benefits from our nation .So it is our duty to protect our nation ,her honour ,her integrity ,sovreignity .And that gives us pride and pride about our nation .Not only pride but protection .Most important thing infact is protection from invaders and exploiters from other parts of world .
We are protected by this nation .So if any one be it from Kashmir or Kanyakumari tries to undermine our nation .We will respond .Tomorrow if some other in our own state Kerala do that they will also get same treatment .
Hon'ble @WAJsal

Let me put it in the way you will understand

If there is armed resistance against the state in Balochistan, FATA and other frontier reasons? Does Pakistani Army welcome them with petals and garlands? Or do they bring forth the wrath of full Pakistan state encompassing Jets, Helicopters and Tanks?

When Pakistani Army gives notice to civilians to evacuate an area where ops are planned and if someone does not evacuate then are they not all considered terrorists. Collateral damage be damned?

I am sympathetic to the angst of Kashmiris but let there be no mistake - For any man and woman taking up arms against the Union Of India has only one outcome - DEATH or INCARCERATION. No matter if they have 1 or thousand or million strong well wishers behind them.

The day Burhan picked up that AK - His fate was sealed. Such people are no worse than suicide bombers for they know their fate - undeniable death.

And who are the policeman - hundreds of them who got injured and few probably killed. KASHMIRI MUSLIMS

So my sincere if unsolicited advice to you is this -

Sovereignty of India is sacrosanct. It doesn't matter if all of Kashmir -3 Million strong take up arms against India. Their tears, their pleas, their violence, their protests, their untimely deaths will not move us. Not one inch of territory will be given.
Honorable Srnair and Spectre, Kashmir cannot be compared to Balochistan or FATA or even say any freedom movement in India, like the Khalistan one. Kashmir is a disputed territory, you lay claim on our side we lay claim on yours. Comparing it would be a disgrace to historic facts and logic.

Because we DO NOT want Pakistan to invade and occupy Kashmir

Secondly given the size of our Army we can send 5 Lakhs More if required
See @Joe Shearer, and you were questioning my sources claims. It's that obvious. And Joe please don't ignore these threads. How long are people like you going to keep quite on this issue and see innocent blood being spilled? Come on Joe, raise your opinion.
These protestors were nor saints, they pelted bullets, they snatched weapons, they burnt posts, they kidnapped and probably murdered 3 Policemen and if not stopped they would have cause much more misery and mayhem. So they got what they deserved. When you have problems - you approach the Govt on the platforms provided to you. THIS IS JUST NOT DONE and the deaths are on their own head.
Number of protesters? does it mean everyone in Kashmir or even protesting is a terrorist?
 
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See that is the problem. As i said before, Kashmiris are suffering from the hatred for Pakistan that Indians have.

You don't have to bend before Pakistan, what about Kashmiris? Doesn't matter really, i think you might as well be in favor of killing all the Kashmiris to solve the problem if needed. See we don't have a problem being the occupier but have a problem being occupied. We have forgotten the British Raj too fast.



Honorable Srnair and Spectre, Kashmir cannot be compared to Balochistan or FATA or even say any freedom movement in India, like the Khalistan one. Kashmir is a disputed territory, you lay claim on our side we lay claim on yours. Comparing it would be a disgrace to historic facts and logic.


See @Joe Shearer, and you were questioning my sources claims. It's that obvious. And Joe please don't ignore these threads. How long are people like you going to keep quite on this issue and see innocent blood being spilled? Come on Joe, raise your opinion.

Number of protesters? does it mean everyone in Kashmir or even protesting is a terrorist?

Simple Question @WAJsal

If a protester comes with intention of killing you then what do you do? Do you lay down to be killed, do you abandon your post or do you fight back?

I think you often forget - these were not peaceful protesters. They smelled blood and moved in for the kill.

honorable Srnair and Spectre, Kashmir cannot be compared to Balochistan or FATA or even say any freedom movement in India, like the Khalistan one. Kashmir is a disputed territory, you lay claim on our side we lay claim on yours. Comparing it would be a disgrace to historic facts and logic.

This is your contention - Contention of India is that Kashmir is an integral part of India. No different then what you consider Balochistan, FATA and KPK to be and no different from Khalistan from us. Our state with respond with same measure of force and restraint in all such regions.

Our actions are not informed by Pakistani and other external opinions, Just like your actions are not informed by Afghan or TTP Opinions.
 
Edit: To all the Indian members i am a Gilgiti(and a proud Pakistani) and would prefer if you take my views from a neutral perspective.

RIP to the innocent who had to die:(; when will India learn that such use of force on civilians is only going to create more problems? Only going to urge the youth to take up arms...

I was disgusted by some of the comments Indian members had made regarding these protesters, labeling them all terrorists and celebrating their death. They are local people, opposing your forces, how blind and delusional are you going to get?
View attachment 316622


And secondly, i would want Indina members to ask themselves a few things, but first let take a look at these images...
img_20160709_165914-jpg.316469


img_20160709_165909-jpg.316468



img_20160709_165846-jpg.316467



Are these just 50 peoples who have been paid 50 rupees by the ISI in the funeral? (that logic btw:hitwall:)

Are these just a small faction of people in Jammu Kashmir? (PS: Curfew, mobile service and internet service cut-off)

What result is killing innocent people protesting for their rights going to yield? instead of more chaos.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Indian intellectuals need to stand up, how long are they going to keep quite on these issues(Seriously @Joe Shearer , and i guess you have remained in-active for the very reason. I hope you don't go through some of the threads, the filth is unbearable). Secondly, popular mentality in India(referring to the images posted below) needs to put aside their hatred for Pakistan and look to swallow the bitter pill. Killing, de-religionizing, or a demographic change in Kashmir will not lead to any result you think it will lead to...
View attachment 316624


View attachment 316625


Poor Kashmiris suffering from the hatred for Pakistan our Indian friends have...

@hellfire ,@Joe Shearer ,@Gufi ,@HRK ,@Arsalan , and others...



And then what? you will continue to kill innocent protesters too? logically speaking will that solve problems or create more? don't you think it's better to solve this in a better manner, bloody affair has never solved a problem. No wonder we never learn anything from history. Hatred for Pakistan needs to be put aside...



Armed resistance/ militancy or armed camps you name it, I don't support it- that includes every corner of India not just Kashmir... someone's freedom fighter is others terrorists.. Kashmir issue is not about the land but water .. it known facts... when external source/ hand involved then the result will be no good...
 
Simple Question @WAJsal

If a protester comes with intention of killing you then what do you do? Do you lay down to be killed, do you abandon your post or do you fight back?

I think you often forget - these were not peaceful protesters. They smelled blood and moved in for the kill.
How many people were protesting? Does it not mean that the majority is against the occupation and want to join Pakistan. It's like contradicting yourself, sometimes you folks say 50 people are protesting(while the images suggest otherwise), sometimes you say Kashmiris don't want to join Pakistan...

Pakistan won't be backing them at the level they did in 1991, the response of Indian State will be more forceful, and again a whole generation of Kashmiris will be 'culled'!

Additionally, this time no one, not even the international community will bat an eyelid as we go about suppressing it forcefully.
The bigger question is are folks like you who are on ground and understand these situation going to stay silent on this issue? And you are going to let another generation of Kashmiris going down the drain? I am sick of educated people staying silent on this issue, especially in India!
BTW, good analysis. Very good one.
The rest clarified in profile post.

And not interested in having discussions with anyone, too gutted and disgusted.
 
How many people were protesting? Does it not mean that the majority is against the occupation and want to join Pakistan. It's like contradicting yourself, sometimes you folks say 50 people are protesting(while the images suggest otherwise), sometimes you say Kashmiris don't want to join Pakistan...

Flawed Logic @WAJsal - India has a population of 1.2 Billion. Even if every single Kashmiri child, woman and man protest they do not constitute majority in State of India of which it is a part. You cant count majority piecemeal - otherwise tomorrow a Mohalla in Lajpat Nagar in Delhi might decide to secede from India and on basis of few nutters we may have to allow them. No nation works this way.

Still State of India grants them the right of peaceful protests, protests were not peaceful.

As for numbers, I never claimed any and whatever they might be - it is irrelevant.

 
The bigger question is are folks like you who are on ground and understand these situation going to stay silent on this issue? And you are going to let another generation of Kashmiris going down the drain? I am sick of educated people staying silent on this issue, especially in India!
BTW, good analysis. Very good one.
The rest clarified in profile post.

And not interested in having discussions with anyone, too gutted and disgusted.

We have given the Kashmiris lots of avenues and funds for economic development

They have ALL the rights which the Other 16 CRORE Indian Muslims have

IF Kashmiris think that with Pakistan's support they can Break away they are BADLY
mistaken ; they will only destroy their lives

Kashmiris are unhappy because of this FAILED dream of uniting with Pakistan

They have to give up this dream

India has a population of 1.2 Billion.

It has crossed 1.3 Billion 8-)
 
The bigger question is are folks like you who are on ground and understand these situation going to stay silent on this issue? And you are going to let another generation of Kashmiris going down the drain? I am sick of educated people staying silent on this issue, especially in India!
BTW, good analysis. Very good one.
The rest clarified in profile post.

And not interested in having discussions with anyone, too gutted and disgusted.

Sir. The issue is that in India, unlike in Pakistan, the armed forces carry out the political objectives and stop at that point. In Pakistan, it does not stop there. The policy is being decided by people who are merely supposed to attain political objectives. In such a scenario, the pre-eminence enjoyed by the men in uniform is addictive. And when such men take it upon themselves to formulate the policy of a nation, it is difficult to wean one's self off this feeling of self-import and allow a pragmatic policy to be formulated.

Thankfully we are unburdened by that.

On the political front, Modi can settle this matter, but is PA ready to take a backseat here?

He has all the credentials, vilified as a muslim hater, hindutva's poster boy and authoritarian enough to get his way. Any compromise on Kashmir would be accepted by Indians .... on his credentials alone!!

As for bold part ... I agree.

Thanks.
 
At end we Indians are earning a lot of benefits from our nation .So it is our duty to protect our nation ,her honour ,her integrity ,sovreignity .And that gives us pride and pride about our nation .Not only pride but protection .Most important thing infact is protection from invaders and exploiters from other parts of world .
We are protected by this nation .So if any one be it from Kashmir or Kanyakumari tries to undermine our nation .We will respond .Tomorrow if some other in our own state Kerala do that they will also get same treatment .




Again you are just humiliating yourself with little knowledge .
7 lakh really ?

Yes 7 lakh.

Your surprise actually show your little knowledge.

It was Pakistan Army under General Kayani who rejected the Musharraf Formula

Anyway it was Impractical for us too

The Reduction of forces on the LOC was an INVITATION to invaders
You cannot have free movement without security checks



Because we DO NOT want Pakistan to invade and occupy Kashmir

Secondly given the size of our Army we can send 5 Lakhs More if required

If that is the case pakistan can invade khalistan, rajasthan, gujarat...it is because you guys know that kashmiris will merge that land with pakistan, hence the insecurity.

Yes you can send 5 lakh more occupier terrorists if you wanna scale up the massacre of innocent kashmiris.
 

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