Karzai calls India an 'all-weather friend' as he argues for closer cooperation in confronting terror

[pakistani342]

That again is subjective. When u say family, its on basis of ethnic identity. Pakistan was made in name of religion and hence all types of Muslims came to Pakistan.

Bottomline is, Afganistan is family to West Pakistanis exactly the way Indians are Brothers to Punjab and Sind due to our ethnic similarities.

Mmm, actually I am Punjabi, and I don't think Punjabis (at least non-Hindu and non-Sikh Punjabis) would regard any part of India as family (even Indian Punjabi Muslims evoke a different emotion).

Ethnic difference is a fact in Pakistan thats why we see so much instability.

Well ethnic differences can be a contributing factor but it is not a sufficient factor

Hence the basic question still exists, IS concept of Pakistan even a justified philosophy when Khyber Puktoonkhwa people have associations with Afganistan, Balochis have association with Iran and Punjab, Sind have association with India. So what exactly is the family factor and friend factor associated to Pakistan? Pakistanis are family to Afganis exactly the way Pakistanis are family to India. Its just which region are you talking bout?

Mmmm, I think your assertions are incorrect -- except for Baluchistan (and this is a re-emerging reality) most ethnicities many not be happy in Pakistan but there is no call to dismember it -- we even have created a Pakistani mythology that binds us together, Urdu has replaced mother tongues as the lingua franca -- Especially amongst the KPK, Punjab, Sindh corridor. And, I think there is no significant ethnicity of Muslim decent in Pakistan that has familial emotions towards India. At the same time there is no large scale hatred either and while there may be fondness towards Indians and India, on the question on family there is no such "belonging".

Ara Mera Bhai
why waste your time with this LALA and that also from some remote mountain top in Afghanistan !!! The only regret I have that Pakistan did not learn from IRAN on to deal with these afghans !!

My lament is that this is an extremely sad reality. no?

India was not with the USSR or Americans or the animals that Pakistan created. Regardless of what the likes of you thinks.
India was/is with people like Ahmad Shah Masssoud.

Ahhhm, you do know that Ahmad Shah Masoud's group is accused just as much as any other faction of human rights abuses and war crimes such as rapes, killings?

 

[WAR-rior]

Mmm, actually I am Punjabi, and I don't think Punjabis (at least non-Hindu and non-Sikh Punjabis) would regard any part of India as family (even Indian Punjabi Muslims evoke a different emotion).



Well ethnic differences can be a contributing factor but it is not a sufficient factor



Mmmm, I think your assertions are incorrect -- except for Baluchistan (and this is a re-emerging reality) most ethnicities many not be happy in Pakistan but there is no call to dismember it -- we even have created a Pakistani mythology that binds us together, Urdu has replaced mother tongues as the lingua franca -- Especially amongst the KPK, Punjab, Sindh corridor. And, I think there is no significant ethnicity of Muslim decent in Pakistan that has familial emotions towards India. At the same time there is no large scale hatred either and while there may be fondness towards Indians and India, on the question on family there is no such "belonging".



My lament is that this is an extremely sad reality. no?



Ahhhm, you do know that Ahmad Shah Masoud's group is accused just as much as any other faction of human rights abuses and war crimes such as rapes, killings?

Kuchh bhi Random.

You mean to say all the things and stance taken by you guyz is just part of creating a forced identity just coz u are not able to accept your true Identity.

Just look at your answers dude. You have CREATED your Pakistani Mythology. Is it a story writing competition to create a story out of air just to show ur differences from Indians.

Shit man. What desperation to get an identity just to show everyone how different are we frm India. Ha Ha. ATB

 

[pakistani342]

Kuchh bhi Random.

You mean to say all the things and stance taken by you guyz is just part of creating a forced identity just coz u are not able to accept your true Identity.

Just look at your answers dude. You have CREATED your Pakistani Mythology. Is it a story writing competition to create a story out of air just to show ur differences from Indians.

Shit man. What desperation to get an identity just to show everyone how different are we frm India. Ha Ha. ATB

I mean seriously ???

I didn't realize we were have a school yard brawl?

 

[WAR-rior]

I mean seriously ???

I didn't realize we were have a school yard brawl?

Yes Seriously. I dont want any brawl but I enthrawls me to see Pakistanis so desperate for their Identity by hook or by crook even tough they have one which they feel insulted to accept just on basis of religion. Wow. How can identity be even aligned with Religion? Identity is aligned with culture and ethnicity. History has proved it day in day out and Bangladesh was greatest example of it, which you will never want to accept. There was some reason why West Pakistan rejected people's mandate in 1970 where a Bengali wud have become Pakistan's PM. Can you explain this Attitude from Punjabi Pakistanis?

 

[pakistani342]

Yes Seriously. I dont want any brawl but I enthrawls me to see Pakistanis so desperate for their Identity by hook or by crook even tough they have one which they feel insulted to accept just on basis of religion. Wow. How can identity be even aligned with Religion? Identity is aligned with culture and ethnicity. History has proved it day in day out and Bangladesh was greatest example of it, which you will never want to accept. There was some reason why West Pakistan rejected people's mandate in 1970 where a Bengali wud have become Pakistan's PM. Can you explain this Attitude from Punjabi Pakistanis?

really ... really ...

you really think I am desperate for an identity ... ?

Perhaps it might be more productive if you accept the assertions that we Pakistanis are a people and how we feel at face value and work backwards ?

 

[WAR-rior]

really ... really ...

you really think I am desperate for an identity ... ?

I mean Pakistanis in general. By the way lets focus on some basic questions put by me. Coz as Hassan Nisar sir say, Any kaum who can retrospect with facts is only able to create an identity and history. He says all this for Pakistan but we believe its true for Any clan or country. Hes a great philosopher.

I really wud appreciate if Pakistan is able to create its identity but doing that on basis of hatred from Indian forpassing all the ground Facts is just not the way. Thats why i threw certian questions to you. Better Pakistanis address these on ground queries, tackle them, acknowledge them, accept them, clense them and after that the identity that will develop will be pure and progressive. Just saying.

 

[pakistani342]

I mean Pakistanis in general. By the way lets focus on some basic questions put by me. Coz as Hassan Nisar sir say, Any kaum who can retrospect with facts is only able to create an identity and history. He says all this for Pakistan but we believe its true for Any clan or country. Hes a great philosopher.

I really wud appreciate if Pakistan is able to create its identity but doing that on basis of hatred from Indian forpassing all the ground Facts is just not the way. Thats why i threw certian questions to you. Better Pakistanis address these on ground queries, tackle them, acknowledge them, accept them, clense them and after that the identity that will develop will be pure and progressive. Just saying.

if you enumerate these questions perhaps I can try to give you my point of view.

 

[WAR-rior]

if you enumerate these questions perhaps I can try to give you my point of view.

1. What do Pakistanis actually think was the reason of creation of Bangladesh. Fuget bout heart but as per mind, do you guyz think 2 nation theory actually exists anywhere in this world?
2. Why did Pakistan reject 1970 elections? Was it because West Pakistan wasnt ready to accept an East Pakistani as their PM? Why was Bengali representation negligible in Pakistani ARmed forces.

Thats only for starters. With every response of urs will arise another question.
This discussion wud be good for mental clearance of both of us.

Its always good to retrospect for positive thought process and the future.

 

[pakistani342]

1. What do Pakistanis actually think was the reason of creation of Bangladesh. Fuget bout heart but as per mind, do you guyz think 2 nation theory actually exists anywhere in this world?.

This is not something I've thought about too much but yes ... I think the 2 nation theory was really the N-nation theory. I think the Bengalis were far enough to make a single state un-viable given that:
A. Pakistan is a poor third world country
The atrocities, and all the un-pleasantness can be (for simplicity's sake) as a consequence of this point.
B. There is a hostile neighbor in the middle [not an accusatory statement but just a matter of fact]

--> My point is Nations/States have their lifetimes and trajectories. 1971 was just point in history for Pakistan/Bangladesh.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. Why did Pakistan reject 1970 elections? Was it because West Pakistan wasnt ready to accept an East Pakistani as their PM? Why was Bengali representation negligible in Pakistani ARmed forces.

A. The people who held onto power did not want to cede it. Bhutto who exclaimed: tum udher, hum idher was a Sindhi and not a Punjabi -- but yes the cultures of West Pakistan have more commonality then Bangladesh. I don't think this is a matter of debate.

B. Now I'd like to point out the outcomes of elections have been rejected not only in 1970 but every time the vote has been rigged or the military has over thrown an elected government -- but in that aspect Pakistan is not unique: Turkey, Korea, hell even Greece have developed into vibrant nations and states of the 21st century despite elections being thrown out in the twentieth century.

============================

To point out the South of the United States Ceded from the North and was essentially unified by force -- which in turn was largely due to the fact that the North was far more industrialized and richer than the South.

Today -- the US is one Nation -- the Civil war was one significant point in history which could have gone either way.

============================

A hypothetical scenario would be -- say Bangladesh was contiguous with Pakistan with no contiguity to India, had a large percentage of Pakhtun, Punjabi and Sindhi ethnicities (like other provinces of present day Pakistan) - how would history have unfolded - no one knows but it might have been very different from 1971.

 

[WAR-rior]

This is not something I've thought about too much but yes ... I think the 2 nation theory was really the N-nation theory. I think the Bengalis were far enough to make a single state un-viable given that:
A. Pakistan is a poor third world country
The atrocities, and all the un-pleasantness can be (for simplicity's sake) as a consequence of this point.
B. There is a hostile neighbor in the middle [not an accusatory statement but just a matter of fact]

--> My point is Nations/States have their lifetimes and trajectories. 1971 was just point in history for Pakistan/Bangladesh.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


A. The people who held onto power did not want to cede it. Bhutto who exclaimed: tum udher, hum idher was a Sindhi and not a Punjabi -- but yes the cultures of West Pakistan have more commonality then Bangladesh. I don't think this is a matter of debate.

B. Now I'd like to point out the outcomes of elections have been rejected not only in 1970 but every time the vote has been rigged or the military has over thrown an elected government -- but in that aspect Pakistan is not unique: Turkey, Korea, hell even Greece have developed into vibrant nations and states of the 21st century despite elections being thrown out in the twentieth century.

============================

To point out the South of the United States Ceded from the North and was essentially unified by force -- which in turn was largely due to the fact that the North was far more industrialized and richer than the South.

Today -- the US is one Nation -- the Civil war was one significant point in history which could have gone either way.

============================

A hypothetical scenario would be -- say Bangladesh was contiguous with Pakistan with no contiguity to India, had a large percentage of Pakhtun, Punjabi and Sindhi ethnicities (like other provinces of present day Pakistan) - how would history have unfolded - no one knows but it might have been very different from 1971.

Hmm. Agree that Countries take tym to mature. You have provided all the rightful reasons for the problems faced by Pakistan but have u ever tried to scrutinize the root cause?

You say Elections were never the successful factor no matter what the timeperiod is but have u tried to think why so when same thing happaned successfully over tym in ur neighbouring country.

Why do u think a religiously twin of urs called Bangladesh has become a better vibrant democracy in half tym period as of urs?

U rightly accepted the difference between cultures in East and West Pakistan but why wasnt that considered while creating a seperate nation. Thats why they say 2 nation theory is a farce coz Countries are built on factors of Culture, Language and Not Religion. India being an exception coz the biggest support structure for this matter is our Age old History of coexistence. The ancient nature of India has been the biggest catalyst for people to believe we can live together as 1 country even if we have different cultures and Languages .

You are justified in ur hypothesis that if Bangladesh had similar cultures of that in West Pakistan. Then there was no reason for these countries to break up. Thats what the matter of fact is, Cultural similarities precede over Physical Distances. But again that, as I said, is hypothetical and we dont know how wud events turn out to be.

Pakistan now is in a dillema as to what to do since their actual phylosophy turned out to be farce. Thats why as u said earlier, You are trying to create ur different identity and for that u tried to go Arab way but they dint entertain you. Now you want a seperate Indentity for that you guyz are creating new theories of isolation of Indus Valley with Ganges. Irrespective of religion, the son of soils have always been the same no matter where the rulers came from. The Islamic rulers came from West of Hindukush and we had conversions but those converted were original sons of soil. Mughals, Sultanate Rulers dint bring the muslims from West side into subcontinent. The muslims were those already there who embrased Islam. So culturally you are of Indus Valley with a Mid East religion. Hence, its ingenuine to say just coz ur Religion is different than mainland India, your Cultures too are of Mideast. Your culture and language has always been the same irrespective of timeline.

Subcontinent as a single kingdom has been ruled by many rulers from all religion hindu, buddhist, muslims. Hence, there is a proof that Both Ganges and Indus Valley people had communication and were not isolated with each other historically, in every timeline.

 

[Jzaib]

India was not with the USSR or Americans or the animals that Pakistan created. Regardless of what the likes of you thinks.
India was/is with people like Ahmad Shah Masssoud.

well those animal liberated afghanistan.. how much u try to defend it but India was the biggest ally that USSR had at that time

 

[pakistani342]

Hmm. Agree that Countries take tym to mature. You have provided all the rightful reasons for the problems faced by Pakistan but have u ever tried to scrutinize the root cause?

So just to point, root cause theory looks good in text books and small sized problems say what caused the Internet backbone to go down (relatively small sized). Pakistan's current state has innumerable contributing causes some might include:
1. Failure to control the population
2. Failure to invest in education
3. Neighborhood

For example, say Pakistan had become religious-state but was located say where Tahiti is -- who knows Pakistan may have fared differently.

So I think your search for root cause may not yield anything because it assumes the existence of a root cause -- my argument is that even if one truly exists, it is very difficult to establish it because the sheer complexity of the system (in this case Pakistan and it's near region) -- causality is lost in complexity. Oh and I think you often make the mistake of confusing causality with correlation.

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You say Elections were never the successful factor no matter what the timeperiod is but have u tried to think why so when same thing happaned successfully over tym in ur neighbouring country.

Again ... Pakistan is not India and India is not Pakistan -- Turkey for example is a modern Muslim country which many Pakistanis look up to -- Turkey has done fine despite Military governments. I could say that religious minorities have fared much better in Turkey than India but then Turkey is not India and India is not Turkey.

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Why do u think a religiously twin of urs called Bangladesh has become a better vibrant democracy in half tym period as of urs?

Not to be disrespectful but this is really freshman logic -- not really worthy of debate -- For example why has a good friend of mine who has been in excellent physical shape all his life suddenly gotten cancer (?) -- I mean really?

It might behoove you to consider that if we were holding this debate 30 years ago -- Pakistan would have been the star performer in South Asia. Countries, States and Nations like People have high points, low points, births and deaths.

-------

U rightly accepted the difference between cultures in East and West Pakistan but why wasnt that considered while creating a seperate nation. Thats why they say 2 nation theory is a farce coz Countries are built on factors of Culture, Language and Not Religion. India being an exception coz the biggest support structure for this matter is our Age old History of coexistence. The ancient nature of India has been the biggest catalyst for people to believe we can live together as 1 country even if we have different cultures and Languages .

I think you have really argued yourself out of a point -- So India can have multiple cultures and be a nation with a state and Pakistan can't ?

Pakistan and Bangladeshi cultures are different but they are similar too. Had Bangladesh been contiguous with Pakistan, perhaps we would not have had Bangladesh today. Again I mean really do you believe what you saying?

-------

You are justified in ur hypothesis that if Bangladesh had similar cultures of that in West Pakistan. Then there was no reason for these countries to break up. Thats what the matter of fact is, Cultural similarities precede over Physical Distances. But again that, as I said, is hypothetical and we dont know how wud events turn out to be.

Agreed, but we can't rule it out just because it has not happened. For example Pakistan could have ended up being a part of modern India.

The Muslims of India for a large part of their history were not successfully Integrated into the Indian fabric -- today they possibly are.

A pertinent question that can be asked of Pakistanis is would they wish if their forefathers had opted to join India -- despite today's hardships there will be no takers of this alternative history in Pakistan.

So yes, Pakistan has been successful in forging a national identity as I would argue has India and Bangladesh.

You have to understand the people who populate present day Pakistan did not appear from thin air on August 14th 1947. Some of us been here for millennia, others for centuries some for decades but we are inheritors of our distant past and makers of our recent one.

Pakistan now is in a dillema as to what to do since their actual phylosophy turned out to be farce. Thats why as u said earlier, You are trying to create ur different identity and for that u tried to go Arab way but they dint entertain you. Now you want a seperate Indentity for that you guyz are creating new theories of isolation of Indus Valley with Ganges. Irrespective of religion, the son of soils have always been the same no matter where the rulers came from. The Islamic rulers came from West of Hindukush and we had conversions but those converted were original sons of soil. Mughals, Sultanate Rulers dint bring the muslims from West side into subcontinent. The muslims were those already there who embrased Islam. So culturally you are of Indus Valley with a Mid East religion. Hence, its ingenuine to say just coz ur Religion is different than mainland India, your Cultures too are of Mideast. Your culture and language has always been the same irrespective of timeline.

Subcontinent as a single kingdom has been ruled by many rulers from all religion hindu, buddhist, muslims. Hence, there is a proof that Both Ganges and Indus Valley people had communication and were not isolated with each other historically, in every timeline.

I think you are conflating concepts and at your sole discretion to suit your ends.

I believe some of your points are based on the assumption that religion is completely separable from culture -- it is not. Especially semitic religions which dictate codes of: marriage, daily conduct, try to answer the big questions of why we are here, where we came from. They set modesty standards; Holidays; names of things; Symbols, Heros, Rituals, dietary code. All these are also the realm of culture -- and I would argue Hinduism from what little I know does pretty much the same. Remember this, I don't believe in any spirituality (God).

And to the structure of your argument: I would like to point out that before we were part of the Muslim world, we were part of the Vedic world (and I don't mean purely religion), but before that we were something else. So we went from something else to Vedic, from Vedic to Islamic. Who knows where we'll end up next but today we do see ourselves as part of the larger muslim world.

From time to time I have tried to go back up my family tree -- a good friend of mine found his great great grand father was a Hindu, I have gone back about 10 generations but still have not found a Hindu past -- I am hopeful when I get to 12 generations deep I'll find my Vedic link. And, I wonder what my genetic ancestors would think if they saw me now, would they by happy, horrified?

But I think what has happened over time, centuries, is that and we have metamorphasized into something that is different from what our forefather were. Biology does it all the time, we all came from a single celled organism, but now we are human. Cultures I suspect do something similar - they evolve and at some point they become something different from where they evolved.

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[Yzd Khalifa]

@Ahmad Shah Abdali

"Israel, Saudi Arabia cooperating to plan possible Iran attack. Saudis would allow Israel use of air space and provide drones, rescue helicopters and tanker planes, report says."
Sunday Times: Israel, Saudi Arabia cooperating to plan possible Iran attack - Diplomacy and Defense Israel News | Haaretz

A random article doesn't function as a solid proof you could utilize against whoever. I can also post tens of articles on Karazi's personality-cult, greediness, and corruption.

"Obama administration is fearful of the rise of Sunni extremism in the Syrian rebel ranks, an increase in Saudi Arabia’s gloves-off support of militant Sunni factions is further undercutting the Western-backed and more moderate Free Syrian Army (FSA)—which is near to collapse—benefiting not only radical Islamists but also al-Qaeda affiliates in Syria who have close ties with the Saudi-backed Islamic Front."
Syria’s Saudi Jihadist Problem - The Daily Beast
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2013/12/popular_saudi_sheikh.php

Not an evidence either. I said I would like to see official documents, is it something too much to ask for?

"Saudi Arabia is the world's largest source of funds for Islamist militant groups such as the Afghan Taliban and Lashkar-e-Taiba"
WikiLeaks cables portray Saudi Arabia as a cash machine for terrorists | World news | The Guardian

Far from being a credible source due to the massive amount of cable leaks.

It is a well known fact that groups like SSP, LEJ etc are Saudi-funded groups with a history going back the Iranian revolution used as pawn by your country to counter the Iranian influence in Pakistan.
Destroying a Nation State: US-Saudi Funded Terrorists Sowing Chaos in Pakistan | Global Research
Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan, Terrorist Group of Pakistan
Lashkar-e Jhangvi Terrorist Organization

This isn't a materialistic proof either.

Looks like all that lizard eating has fcuked up your IQ you are mistaking Karzai for Nawaz who actually was given shelter in your country and regularly asks for $$.

I don't eat lizards - but I don't see anything wrong in eating them -

Nawaz wasn't given a shelter by KSA. The Supreme Court sentenced him to exile. He could have stayed longer than a year in the UK but he willingly chose to move to KSA.

Obviously, when people start attacking others in person over a debate, it shows how vulnerable the counterpart, in debate, really is.

Dude please go read something before blabbering BS here. The only thing saudis committed was perhaps $, a few hundred saudis made absolutely no difference in the war let alone "saving" us.

No, it wasn't all about financial aid or support to the Afghans' cause, but rather a well-organized networks which include providing the Afghans with medical aid, food, and lastly to what became known as Afghan Arabs. Thousands and thousands of Saudis died during the eight-year occupation.

Here are some worth-mentioning facts:

Saudi's role in Afghanistan

1980s: Insurrection
In the mid-1980s, the Afghan resistance movement, assisted by the United States, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, the United Kingdom, Egypt,[10] the People's Republic of China and others, contributed to Moscow's high military costs and strained international relations. The U.S. viewed the conflict in Afghanistan as an integral Cold War struggle, and the CIAprovided assistance to anti-Soviet forces through the Pakistani intelligence services, in a program called Operation Cyclone.[86]

A similar movement occurred in other Muslim countries, bringing contingents of so-called Afghan Arabs, foreign fighters who wished to wage jihad against the atheist communists. Notable among them was a young Saudi namedOsama bin Laden, whose Arab group eventually evolved intoal-Qaeda.[87][88][89]

The same group, the head of Al-Qaida founded later after the USSR withdrawal.

We immediately launched a twofold process when we heard that the Soviets had entered Afghanistan. The first involved direct reactions and sanctions focused on the Soviet Union, and both the State Department and the National Security Council prepared long lists of sanctions to be adopted, of steps to be taken to increase the international costs to the Soviet Union of their actions. And the second course of action led to my going to Pakistan a month or so after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, for the purpose of coordinating with the Pakistanis a joint response, the purpose of which would be to make the Soviets bleed for as much and as long as is possible; and we engaged in that effort in a collaborative sense with the Saudis, the Egyptians, the British, the Chinese, and we started providing weapons to the Mujaheddin, from various sources again – for example, some Soviet arms from the Egyptians and the Chinese. We even got Soviet arms from the Czechoslovak communist government, since it was obviously susceptible to material incentives; and at some point we started buying arms for the Mujaheddin from the Soviet army in Afghanistan, because that army was increasingly corrupt.[113]

Perhaps you should have saved your country when the Iraqis came knocking on your border instead of begging uncle sam

I'm guessing you're referring to the first Gulf War, right? Well, if so, to the best of our knowledge, Saddam only invaded the State of Kuwait, a state 20 times smaller than Baathist Iraq - which had one of the strongest militaries in the world.

We had had two confrontation with Iraq back in the day, the first was the an interception of two Mirage F1(s) of which was shot down by a Saudi F-15.

The other confrontation was the Republican Guard of Iraq's attempt to invade the City of Khafji - against the Saudi National Guard, backed by the Qatari land force. The Republican Guards were forced to retreat in 73 hours. The US marine corps were present at the time on three fronts, they hold into two - while the Saudis and Qatar took the aforementioned front -

First front was the Saudi-Kuwaiti boarder - to the east -
Second front was on the Saudi-Iraqi boarder to the north -
Third front was the Iraqi-Kuwaiti boarder - to the north east -

The UN passed two resolutions in row which it demanded Iraq's withdrawal from Kuwait within two weeks but Saddam of course rejected it. Thus, the intervention was legitimate to free Kuwait, and force Saddam to withdraw. KSA didn't have a dog in this fight, at least not until Iraq's Mirages violated our airspace.

You have foreign mercenaries manning your equipment and guarding your country for decades now

We don't have any foreign military base whatsoever. But the rest of Gulf States do have American bases, British, and French bases.

With the amount of $ you have, what have you achieved?

A lot ranging from military projects to sending sats in the outer space!

KSA achievements showcased

Saudi's AEC to Develop F-15SA Sub-systems and AMRAAMs

Al-Salam Aerospace Industries Begin F-15SA wings production

Saudi Arabia unveils locally developed Gyro-Stablization system

Saudi PSATRI Inaugurates new Research Centers

Saker Family of Saudi UAVs

Saudi Arabia plans 1000 Military industry projects

Saudi Arabia Building a City Dedicated to Military Industry

Saudi Made Drone Showcased

3 Saudi Military UAVs Unveiled

UAE unveils AL-TARIQ Precision Guided Bombs Kit

AEC finishes upgrading all Tornado jets with indigenous systems

Sabic to build carbon fiber plant in Kingdom

Saudi Arabia, S.A Launch Defense Radars, Electronics Research Program

Saudi Advanced Electronics Company (The upcoming Defense Giant)

Saudi Arabia to Manufacture F-15SA Wings Locally

BAE Systems Saudi Arabia in ToT contract with Al-Salam and AEC

Saudi PanNesma signs JV with Rayethon

PSATRI signs ToT agreement with Italian PSA

UAE working on a 500Kg and 1000Kg variant of the Ybhon Xtreme JDAM

Joint UAE-Ukranian Helicopter project QUEST

Yabhon Xtreme. The UAE JDAM.

Middle East Propulsion Company (MEPC)

MADE IN UAE


Not to mention our 29 firms out of 50, dominating the ME.

29 Saudi Arabian firms listed among top 50 CEOs in the MENA region

still a tribal society

Being a society that consists of tribes is no crime, these tribes co-exist in harmony in our country unlike many.

only excellent in fuelling "Jihad" in other countries

You lack evidence, your argument is invalid.

"Israel, Saudi Arabia cooperating to plan possible Iran attack. Saudis would allow Israel use of air space and provide drones, rescue helicopters and tanker planes, report says."
Sunday Times: Israel, Saudi Arabia cooperating to plan possible Iran attack - Diplomacy and Defense Israel News | Haaretz

"Obama administration is fearful of the rise of Sunni extremism in the Syrian rebel ranks, an increase in Saudi Arabia’s gloves-off support of militant Sunni factions is further undercutting the Western-backed and more moderate Free Syrian Army (FSA)—which is near to collapse—benefiting not only radical Islamists but also al-Qaeda affiliates in Syria who have close ties with the Saudi-backed Islamic Front."
Syria’s Saudi Jihadist Problem - The Daily Beast
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2013/12/popular_saudi_sheikh.php


"Saudi Arabia is the world's largest source of funds for Islamist militant groups such as the Afghan Taliban and Lashkar-e-Taiba"
WikiLeaks cables portray Saudi Arabia as a cash machine for terrorists | World news | The Guardian

It is a well known fact that groups like SSP, LEJ etc are Saudi-funded groups with a history going back the Iranian revolution used as pawn by your country to counter the Iranian influence in Pakistan.
Destroying a Nation State: US-Saudi Funded Terrorists Sowing Chaos in Pakistan | Global Research
Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan, Terrorist Group of Pakistan
Lashkar-e Jhangvi Terrorist Organization

Looks like all that lizard eating has fcuked up your IQ you are mistaking Karzai for Nawaz who actually was given shelter in your country and regularly asks for $$.

Dude please go read something before blabbering BS here. The only thing saudis committed was perhaps $, a few hundred saudis made absolutely no difference in the war let alone "saving" us. Perhaps you should have saved your country when the Iraqis came knocking on your border instead of begging uncle sam. You have foreign mercenaries manning your equipment and guarding your country for decades now. With the amount of $ you have, what have you achieved? still a tribal society lead by old baboons only excellent in fuelling "Jihad" in other countries.

 

[Vinod2070]

I think what has fascinated me is that though my (and Afghans') forefathers must certainly have been Hindu or Buddhist, why is it that we feel kinship and family with whatever is the Muslim world: Afghanistan, Iran, Turkey, etc. (and I'm not even religious).

Why is it that the Taj Mahal or say the temple at Chidambaram are merely historical artifacts to me, ones I'd love to see but the gardens of Paghman feels like my own, I long to see them even though I know the ones in my family's picture albums are no more.

It is a very interesting post. And nothing surprising here.

For an answer, you can start by reading "Among the believers" for an explanation.

Well, I hate to say it but I agree with Karzai (when he says that Pakistanis and Afghans are brothers and Indians are friends), I wish the Pakistani friends to be good friends with the Indian people but but with say the Afghans, the Turks, the Iranians, the Somalians we Pakistanis are family. It should be the reverse no?

It is quite one sided. The others don't think along the same lines.

As many Pakistanis have experienced (and can be seen on this forum itself), those who lose their own identity and try to assume an alternate identity just because of religious conversion (not to mention an alternate history and even ancestry) become thoroughly confused.

Some excerpts:

Islam is in its origins an Arab religion. Everyone not an Arab who is a Muslim is a convert. Islam is not simply a matter of conscience or private belief. It makes imperial demands. A convert's worldview alters. His holy places are in Arab lands; his sacred language is Arabic. His idea of history alters. He rejects his own; he becomes, whether he likes it or not, a part of the Arab story. The convert has to turn away from everything that is his. The disturbance for societies is immense, and even after a thousand years can remain unresolved; the turning away has to be done again and again. People develop fantasies about who and what they are; and in the Islam of the converted countries there is an element of neurosis and nihilism. These countries can be easily set on the boil.

Sounds familiar?

 

[pakistani342]

It is a very interesting post. And nothing surprising here.

For an answer, you can start by reading "Among the believers" for an explanation.

Actually, funny you say that -- I got the book hoping to read about someone's life who straddles both worlds.

While, Aatish Taseer may have done justice to how he feels and what his conclusions are, Sadly he missed the boat on who we Pakistanis are, who we feel we are -- and honestly it's should come as no surprise -- he cannot step into my body and see through my eyes.

I think what is poignant is the size of the gulf between the observed phenomenon (the Pakistani identity as seen by an external observer) and how we Pakistanis (who actually live that identity) feel about ourselves.

I guess to wise men of yesterday the moon looked like it was made of cheese -- I guess to some people's delight and others' chagrin it was recently found to be made of stuff altogether different. What a relief!

It is quite one sided. The others don't think along the same lines.

In some ways, yes it is, he was abandoned by a father, a secular father who he went find, who turned out to be a strange creature a cultural Muslim? Huh what is that -- he must have thought Islam is for talking to the old man up there and getting advise on which stocks to buy -- it is, as I argue, not!

Plus, despite hugs and smiles and comforting words by the family he went to find, he had to accept the bitter reality that we was not part of that family. Think about it - it must be devastating.

You will find similar emotions expressed by children of mixed Pakistani / Indian heritage or sometimes from Hindus of who's families belong to areas that now belong to Pakistan. They go to find their estranged family, and while they may be welcomed by polite and warm people who look like them, they talk about being strangers with the feeling of family absent. It is sad, but yes it is true - a couple of my friends in the US have similar laments, a void which I feel must be painful, if only at certain times.

As many Pakistanis have experienced (and can be seen on this forum itself), those who lose their own identity and try to assume an alternate identity just because of religious conversion (not to mention an alternate history and even ancestry) become thoroughly confused.Sounds familiar?

Actually again, I do appreciate that is how we seem to you - but that is not how we feel about ourselves. Further by your assertion: The Turks must be confused, the Afghans must be confused, the Syrians must be confused, the Egyptians must be confused, the Iraqis must be confused -- all these people were not Arabs or part of the Islamic world they were through one form or another co-opted into the Islamic world. Turks, Afghans and Pakistan don't speak Arabic ... all the other that I listed do? Seen a confused Egyptian lately, probably not? wonder why? holes in a theory perhaps?

And as I have said before we were Hindus once, be we must have been something else before that - so if we were still Hindus would you say we were still confused? New displacers seem to have a knack for displacing older displacers -- funny how reality works.

Similarly when in India: when people wear a three piece suit, or girls wear mini-skirts or bikinis or when the language a group of Indians can comfortably exchange abstract ideas in is English -- have they lost their identity? do they feel confused? Maybe a teeny tiny bit. They have developed an identity that is the current version of the Indian identity and one they are comfortable with it -- now it is possible that there is a conflict between the Indian identity and say a Western identity but I would argue that is the natural state of man -- multiple identities in an individual, some competing, some complementing each other.

An anecdote that I find particularly funny that I'd like to share with you is that once Aatesh Taseer was being interviewed by an Indian woman and he was talking about seeing the pink shalwar of a Pakistani woman protruding below the dreaded black Arabian burkah! And, he was lamenting how the Arabian culture is slowly but surely snuffing out the Indian culture. What was funny was that the woman interviewing him was wearing (if my memory serves me right) a tight black mini skirt with her long legs (that went from here to shall we say Venus) on display -- yet surprisingly he was either oblivious to the mini skirt or was OK with it -- for he did not lament to her how her Western mini skirt had so lovingly laid her gorgeous legs bare.

I guess marg-bar Arabistan, dominion by all other welcome -- lol.