Just in: India's Nirbhay cruise missile blasts off from Integrated Test Range, Odisha. Details await

[MimophantSlayer]

I'm really glad you have come to your senses and are finally discussing this in a scientific context over all that rhetoric.
Now I can properly school you .

Let us all dissect this debate and analyze the facts

1) what all the mission above discovered was hydroxyl (OH), which may or may not be water. It could turn out as Magnesium Hydroxide all we know.

"For all we know"?
Incorrect. WE KNOW.
You think the scientists don't know what the concentration of minerals to water is supposed to be before announcing such a path breaking discovery?
Clearly you think you know more.

But I'll humor you, only so that at least one thread is rid of your BS.

Yes there are hydrated minerals in the regolith but that was not all that was found.
LCROSS detected some 5% of pure water ice rest were silicates, volatiles, and hydrated minerals during the impact of its probe and subsequent flyby of its orbiter.

Whereas LRO gauged some 22% of the Shacklton crater to be ice.

YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT?
There is a whole bunch of data available for you to scour, from ppm levels to C1XS spectrum info to CPR maps to reflectance spectra et cetra, all of it is out there prove that there is more than just hydroxides and such.

We are at the precipice of better understanding the geology of the moon and the next 8 tests or so will further expound as to how much water concentration there actually is on the moon.

And none of your half as$ed notions brought on by sub-par instruments will matter.

2) MIP did not discover water upon impact, the CHACE instrument on the MIP discovered "water" vapour 98km above moon surface while descending.

Your point being?

Water vapour's presence would indicate the presence of water in some form.
But I understand your need to troll, you must think that somehow that disqualifies CHACE as a valuable instrument?

But that is where you are caught with your pants down.

You see the M3 and the CHACE's findings complement each other in that regard.
Whereas M3 an imaging instrument with unprecedented spectral imaging capability, the emphasis there- had been detecting water ice on the lunar surface. On the other hand, the CHACE in the MIP of Chandrayaan-I was designed to give the relative abundance of H2O in its vapour phase with the extremely high sensitivity of partial pressure detection capability (lesser than 10 to the power-13 torr) and also to provide very high altitudinal/latitudinal (250 m/0.1 deg) resolution as the MIP descended and raced towards the south pole.

So success of both instruments prove the existence of water.

Try harder.

3) LUT on Chang'e-3 used their UV instruments to detect the amount of hydroxyl on the moon atmosphere, and provided the most accurate reading ever of the "atmosphere". So what this means is, there could be ice if true but it was not due to the MIP discovery, but due to M3 sensors. MIP discovered vapor which LUT dispelled as not correct. If vapor was present as per MIP result, the vapor would clog the ultra sensitive LUT. The concern was highlighted before LUT was launched.

http://www.moondaily.com/reports/Water_on_Moon_is_bad_news_for_Chinas_lunar_telescope_999.html

What?
Some engineer you are.
A static lander can somehow with a low solar powered basic RCT provide the most accurate reading ever of the "atmosphere". Fathom the statement for a moment, imagine how ridiculous that sounds.

I can smell your BS from my laptop.

Incorrect, LUT is a basic near UV telescope which is no where near something as sensitive as a spectroscope that can do beyond UV and infrared while some like our CHACE have extremely high pressure detection capability in ranges your basic RC telescope cant match.







WTF seriously? Now you are just desperate.
LUT is too far away from the concentrated region to have been affected by water that is not even free.
That is some stupid $hit you are spewing man. Vapour would clog up LUT?

From your own link.

"We recalculated the amount of hydroxyl molecules that would be present in the lunar atmosphere and found that it could be two or three orders higher than previously thought," said Zhao Hua of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, according to a press release.

This has important ramifications for China's third lunar probe, Chang'e-3, which is designed to land on the Moon in 2013 with an ultraviolet telescope on board. The equipment would operate on the Moon's sunlit surface, powered by solar panels.

"At certain ultraviolet wavelengths, hydroxyl molecules cause a particular kind of scattering, where photons (particles of light) are absorbed and rapidly re-emitted," Zhao said.

"Our calculations suggest that this scattering will contaminate observations by sunlit telescopes."

What he is probably talking about is electromagnetic radiation absorption of water.
This phenomena happens due to vapour absorbing radiation differently in different spectral bands.
It is nothing to do with vapor coming inside LUT, it is the light reacting with O-H in the atmosphere to give different result messing up planetary reading.
Read about different OH vibrations.
You are clearly here to regurgitate all that pent up hate and not to have a sane discussion.

In fact it is very possible that all this $hitty readings and info the Chinees team is coming up with is the result of this very phenomena.

I don't know where you got the information from but MIP's discovery was not claimed false, NASA just waited for confirmation from M3 before ISRO's data too was confirmed.
I would very much like to see where you got this information from or whether its out of your @$$.

Please do some research, you are stuck badmouthing Chandrayaan when in fact its findings are already proven by the LCROSS and LRO.
LRO still is active on the moon, unlike your static chang e with subpar instruments which can't even look towards the far side of the moon.
Water vapor was again confirmed later by the LCROSS mission in the same far polar area thereby proving that CHACE was infact right all along.

So what is the conclusion:

1) There could be water but until we get a sample, it could beany hydroxyl bearing mineral like Magnesium Hydroxide, you can't drink that. GET US THAT ICE!!! I want it in my lemonade. LOL

Water ice on moon has been proven(Chandrayaan, LRO, LCROSS). And none of your crying will convince anyone of otherwise.

Your "Magnesium Hydroxide" theory is nonsense borne out of pathetic desperation and I proved it, rather NASA proved it.

And don't worry, you'll get that lemonade, but I'm betting you wouldn't wanna drink it lest it smash your ego.

2) The CHACE results are questionable since the LUT easily proved that there is no vapor in the atmosphere. So, the Indies were trying to claim credit to an American discovery if water ice is proven present, or maybe they were just bullshitting to claim success to a failed mission. Typical bragging indy...

We were the ones who made the water discovery known first, they did it after.
CHACE findings were first made known and then If anything it should be the other way round.
So your conclusion is self gratifying nonsense only a jealous person would cook up.

CHACE is a quadrupole mass spectrometer, with a mass range of 1–100 amu water's Atomic Mass Unit being 18amu if far too easy for CHACE to find out.
Chace showed multiple times the presence of water at an altitudinal resolution of 250 m and a latitude resolution of 0.1 deg.
All of this irrefutable data is out there on the net for everyone to see.


LUT is an insignificant small machine which is nowhere near the site to make any such cohesive judgement.
CHACE was right all along as LCROSS too found vapor.
Hence your point is moot.
Incorrect, LUT's results are based on the exosphere of the moon.
And we don't even know if the LUT can see past the hemisphere towards the far end of the moon where water was discovered.

Typical Chini, making tall claims to mooch off of others' achievements.

Yup, we are sending a sample return mission, that's how to prove what we found. You need to land on the surface, not split second spectrography.

http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=2417814&CategoryId=13936

LOL an inconsequential rock being found and brought back hardly is an achievement.

But bring it back anyway we'll see how big of a contribution it is to science, or just another moon rock similar to NASA's.

Again 25-minute spectrography with 650 mass spectra readings & not just a split second.

LOL we found water and made possible the discussion for colonization of moon whereas you found rocks that everyone else had already found beforehand and named craters. Such "great" discoveries by Chinees.

Enjoy Denial.

I'm really glad you have come to your senses and are finally discussing this in a scientific context over all that rhetoric.
Now I can properly school you .

Let us all dissect this debate and analyze the facts

1) what all the mission above discovered was hydroxyl (OH), which may or may not be water. It could turn out as Magnesium Hydroxide all we know.

Incorrect.
You think the scientists don't know what the concentration of minerals to water is supposed to be before announcing such a path breaking discovery?
Clearly you think you know more.

But I'll humor you, only so that at least one thread is rid of your BS.

Yes there are hydrated minerals in the regolith but that was not all that was found.
LCROSS detected some 5% of pure water ice rest were silicates, volatiles, and hydrated minerals during the impact of its probe and subsequent flyby of its orbiter.

Whereas LRO gauged some 22% of the Shacklton crater to be ice.

YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT?
There is a whole bunch of data available for you to scour, from ppm levels to C1XS spectrum info to CPR maps to reflectance spectra et cetra, all of it is out there prove that there is more than just hydroxides and such.

We are at the precipice of better understanding the geology of the moon and the next 8 tests or so will further expound as to how much water concentration there actually is on the moon.

And none of your half as$ed notions brought on by sub-par instruments will matter.

2) MIP did not discover water upon impact, the CHACE instrument on the MIP discovered "water" vapour 98km above moon surface while descending.

Your point being?

Water vapour's presence would indicate the presence of water in some form.
But I understand your need to troll, you must think that somehow that disqualifies CHACE as a valuable instrument?

But that is where you are caught with your pants down.

You see the M3 and the CHACE's findings complement each other in that regard.
Whereas M3 an imaging instrument with unprecedented spectral imaging capability, the emphasis there- had been detecting water ice on the lunar surface. On the other hand, the CHACE in the MIP of Chandrayaan-I was designed to give the relative abundance of H2O in its vapour phase with the extremely high sensitivity of partial pressure detection capability (lesser than 10 to the power-13 torr) and also to provide very high altitudinal/latitudinal (250 m/0.1 deg) resolution as the MIP descended and raced towards the south pole.

So success of both instruments prove the existence of water.

Try harder.

3) LUT on Chang'e-3 used their UV instruments to detect the amount of hydroxyl on the moon atmosphere, and provided the most accurate reading ever of the "atmosphere". So what this means is, there could be ice if true but it was not due to the MIP discovery, but due to M3 sensors. MIP discovered vapor which LUT dispelled as not correct. If vapor was present as per MIP result, the vapor would clog the ultra sensitive LUT. The concern was highlighted before LUT was launched.

http://www.moondaily.com/reports/Water_on_Moon_is_bad_news_for_Chinas_lunar_telescope_999.html

What?
Some engineer you are.
A static lander can somehow with a low solar powered basic RCT provide the most accurate reading ever of the "atmosphere". Fathom the statement for a moment, imagine how ridiculous that sounds.

I can smell your BS from my laptop.


Incorrect, LUT is a basic near UV telescope which is no where near something as sensitive as a spectroscope that can do beyond UV and infrared while some like our CHACE have extremely high pressure detection capability in ranges your basic RC telescope cant match.

WTF seriously? Now you are just desperate.
LUT is too far away from the concentrated region to have been affected by water that is not even free.
That is some stupid $hit you are spewing man. Vapour would clog up LUT?

From your own link.

"We recalculated the amount of hydroxyl molecules that would be present in the lunar atmosphere and found that it could be two or three orders higher than previously thought," said Zhao Hua of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, according to a press release.

This has important ramifications for China's third lunar probe, Chang'e-3, which is designed to land on the Moon in 2013 with an ultraviolet telescope on board. The equipment would operate on the Moon's sunlit surface, powered by solar panels.

"At certain ultraviolet wavelengths, hydroxyl molecules cause a particular kind of scattering, where photons (particles of light) are absorbed and rapidly re-emitted," Zhao said.

"Our calculations suggest that this scattering will contaminate observations by sunlit telescopes."

What he is probably talking about is electromagnetic radiation absorption of water.
This phenomena happens due to vapour absorbing radiation differently in different spectral bands.
It is nothing to do with vapor coming inside LUT, it is the light reacting with O-H in the atmosphere to give different result messing up planetary reading.
Read about different OH vibrations.
You are clearly here to regurgitate all that pent up hate and not to have a sane discussion.

In fact it is very possible that all this $hitty readings and info the Chinees team is coming up with is the result of this very phenomena.

I don't know where you got the information from but MIP's discovery was not claimed false, NASA just waited for confirmation from M3 before ISRO's data too was confirmed.
I would very much like to see where you got this information from or whether its out of your @$$.

Please do some research, you are stuck badmouthing Chandrayaan when in fact its findings are already proven by the LCROSS and LRO.
LRO still is active on the moon, unlike your static chang e with subpar instruments which can't even look towards the far side of the moon.
Water vapor was again confirmed later by the LCROSS mission in the same far polar area thereby proving that CHACE was infact right all along.

So what is the conclusion:

1) There could be water but until we get a sample, it could beany hydroxyl bearing mineral like Magnesium Hydroxide, you can't drink that. GET US THAT ICE!!! I want it in my lemonade. LOL

Water ice on moon has been proven(Chandrayaan, LRO, LCROSS). And none of your crying will convince anyone of otherwise.

Your "Magnesium Hydroxide" theory is nonsense borne out of pathetic desperation and I proved it, rather NASA proved it.

And don't worry, you'll get that lemonade, but I'm betting you wouldn't wanna drink it lest it smash your ego.

2) The CHACE results are questionable since the LUT easily proved that there is no vapor in the atmosphere. So, the Indies were trying to claim credit to an American discovery if water ice is proven present, or maybe they were just bullshitting to claim success to a failed mission. Typical bragging indy...

We were the ones who made the water discovery known first, they did it after.
CHACE findings were first made known and then If anything it should be the other way round.
So your conclusion is self gratifying nonsense only a jealous person would cook up.

CHACE is a quadrupole mass spectrometer, with a mass range of 1–100 amu water's Atomic Mass Unit being 18amu if far too easy for CHACE to find out.
Chace showed multiple times the presence of water at an altitudinal resolution of 250 m and a latitude resolution of 0.1 deg.
All of this irrefutable data is out there on the net for everyone to see.


LUT is an insignificant small machine which is nowhere near the site to make any such cohesive judgement.
CHACE was right all along as LCROSS too found vapor.
Hence your point is moot.
Incorrect, LUT's results are based on the exosphere of the moon.
And we don't even know if the LUT can see past the hemisphere towards the far end of the moon where water was discovered.

Typical Chini, making tall claims to mooch off of others' achievements.

Yup, we are sending a sample return mission, that's how to prove what we found. You need to land on the surface, not split second spectrography.

http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=2417814&CategoryId=13936

LOL an inconsequential rock being found and brought back hardly is an achievement.

But bring it back anyway we'll see how big of a contribution it is to science, or just another moon rock similar to NASA's.

Again 25-minute spectrography with 650 mass spectra readings & not just a split second.

LOL we found water and made possible the discussion for colonization of moon whereas you found rocks that everyone else had already found beforehand and named craters. Such discoveries by Chinees.

Now you are free to Enjoy Denial.

 

[#hydra#]

A country of 1/10th of our size,a country with fraction of our economy,a country with fraction of R&D and defense budget today announced a success story of theirs submarine launched cruise missile. But we Indians still stuck up with fourth disastrous launch of our own cruise missile. Pity still we call ourselves as advanced nation than Pakistan.

 

[ranadd]

Let us all dissect this debate and analyze the facts

1) what all the mission above discovered was hydroxyl (OH), which may or may not be water. It could turn out as Magnesium Hydroxide all we know.

2) MIP did not discover water upon impact, the CHACE instrument on the MIP discovered "water" vapour 98km above moon surface while descending.



3) M3 instrument by NASA discovered (OH) signature by imaging spectrography.

3) LUT on Chang'e-3 used their UV instruments to detect the amount of hydroxyl on the moon atmosphere, and provided the most accurate reading ever of the "atmosphere". So what this means is, there could be ice if true but it was not due to the MIP discovery, but due to M3 sensors. MIP discovered vapor which LUT dispelled as not correct. If vapor was present as per MIP result, the vapor would clog the ultra sensitive LUT. The concern was highlighted before LUT was launched.

http://www.moondaily.com/reports/Water_on_Moon_is_bad_news_for_Chinas_lunar_telescope_999.html

So what is the conclusion:

1) There could be water but until we get a sample, it could beany hydroxyl bearing mineral like Magnesium Hydroxide, you can't drink that. GET US THAT ICE!!! I want it in my lemonade. LOL

2) The CHACE results are questionable since the LUT easily proved that there is no vapor in the atmosphere. So, the Indies were trying to claim credit to an American discovery if water ice is proven present, or maybe they were just bullshitting to claim success to a failed mission. Typical bragging indy...

Yup, we are sending a sample return mission, that's how to prove what we found. You need to land on the surface, not split second spectrography.

http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=2417814&CategoryId=13936

Give it a rest. Calm down. You lost the argument, lets move on to another mudslinging topic.

A country of 1/10th of our size,a country with fraction of our economy,a country with fraction of R&D and defense budget today announced a success story of theirs submarine launched cruise missile. But we Indians still stuck up with fourth disastrous launch of our own cruise missile. Pity still we call ourselves as advanced nation than Pakistan.

I agree. Pakistan did an excellent job.

 

[hussain0216]

A country of 1/10th of our size,a country with fraction of our economy,a country with fraction of R&D and defense budget today announced a success story of theirs submarine launched cruise missile. But we Indians still stuck up with fourth disastrous launch of our own cruise missile. Pity still we call ourselves as advanced nation than Pakistan.

We are 3 and a half times smaller in land size but 7 times smaller in population

 

[Indx-techs]

A country of 1/10th of our size,a country with fraction of our economy,a country with fraction of R&D and defense budget today announced a success story of theirs submarine launched cruise missile. But we Indians still stuck up with fourth disastrous launch of our own cruise missile. Pity still we call ourselves as advanced nation than Pakistan.

Honestly, I don't like mock up others.
But
The facts say that India produces 81 out of 94 missile technologies, not Pakistan.

The facts say that India produces turbofan engines not Pakistan (they use NPO bought from USSR around 70s & 80s)

Facts say that India invests 25 times more in R&D.
The facts say that India scores 35 times more patents per capita than Pakistan and most innovative among all countries in third world.

Facts say that every country has announced missile failures in world except Pakistan.

If you guys really want, I can offer a healthy discussion over the issue of Babur-3 missile test if people don't troll.

 

[Han Patriot]

I'm really glad you have come to your senses and are finally discussing this in a scientific context over all that rhetoric.
Now I can properly school you .



"For all we know"?
Incorrect. WE KNOW.
You think the scientists don't know what the concentration of minerals to water is supposed to be before announcing such a path breaking discovery?
Clearly you think you know more.

But I'll humor you, only so that at least one thread is rid of your BS.

Yes there are hydrated minerals in the regolith but that was not all that was found.
LCROSS detected some 5% of pure water ice rest were silicates, volatiles, and hydrated minerals during the impact of its probe and subsequent flyby of its orbiter.

Whereas LRO gauged some 22% of the Shacklton crater to be ice.

YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT?
There is a whole bunch of data available for you to scour, from ppm levels to C1XS spectrum info to CPR maps to reflectance spectra et cetra, all of it is out there prove that there is more than just hydroxides and such.

We are at the precipice of better understanding the geology of the moon and the next 8 tests or so will further expound as to how much water concentration there actually is on the moon.

And none of your half as$ed notions brought on by sub-par instruments will matter.

LCROSS spacecraft that flew into the ejecta plume and attempted to detect the presence of water vapor in the debris cloud.[53] Although no immediate spectacular plume was seen, time was needed to analyze the spectrometry data. On November 13, 2009 NASA reported that after analysis of the data obtained from the ejecta plume, the spectral signature of water had been confirmed.[10][54] However, what was actually detected was the chemical group hydroxyl ( · OH), which is suspected to be from water,[3] but could also be hydrates, which are inorganic salts containing chemically-bound water molecules.

The Mini-RF instrument on LRO observed the LCROSS landing site and did not detect any evidence of large slabs of water ice, so the water is most likely present as small pieces of ice mixed in with the lunar regolith.[56][57]

In November 2009, NASA re-confirmed water on moon with its LCROSS space probe which detected a significant amount of hydroxyl group in the material thrown up from a south polar crater by an impactor;[10] this may be attributed to water-bearing materials[11] – what appears to be "near pure crystalline water-ice".

On August 21, 2009, the spacecraft, along with the Chandrayaan-1 orbiter, attempted to perform a bistatic radar experiment to detect the presence of water ice on the lunar surface,[47][48] but the test was unsuccessful.[49]

All I can read from this is it is a speculation? Well if a sample can be brought back by Chandrayaan-2 and prove us all wrong, what Chang'e-3 resulsts suggest is the INDIAN instrument is subpar, not the US instrument, they might or might not be ice.

Your point being?

Water vapour's presence would indicate the presence of water in some form.
But I understand your need to troll, you must think that somehow that disqualifies CHACE as a valuable instrument?

But that is where you are caught with your pants down.

You see the M3 and the CHACE's findings complement each other in that regard.
Whereas M3 an imaging instrument with unprecedented spectral imaging capability, the emphasis there- had been detecting water ice on the lunar surface. On the other hand, the CHACE in the MIP of Chandrayaan-I was designed to give the relative abundance of H2O in its vapour phase with the extremely high sensitivity of partial pressure detection capability (lesser than 10 to the power-13 torr) and also to provide very high altitudinal/latitudinal (250 m/0.1 deg) resolution as the MIP descended and raced towards the south pole.

So success of both instruments prove the existence of water.

Try harder.

China just proved there is no vapor in the atmosphere with the most precise UV sensor ever used for the moon. If you say there might be ice, I would still think it's possible but it requires prove, but 98km above the surface, there is definitely no water vapor, UNDERSTAND? CHACE is a subpar instrument, or somebody is lying to save face?

What?
Some engineer you are.
A static lander can somehow with a low solar powered basic RCT provide the most accurate reading ever of the "atmosphere". Fathom the statement for a moment, imagine how ridiculous that sounds.

I can smell your BS from my laptop.

Incorrect, LUT is a basic near UV telescope which is no where near something as sensitive as a spectroscope that can do beyond UV and infrared while some like our CHACE have extremely high pressure detection capability in ranges your basic RC telescope cant match.

Yah and split second crash landing can provide awesome evidence? There is two conflicting arguments, one is saying no water, one is saying there is water, scientifically shouldn't a sample be taken back to close this argument?

 

[#hydra#]

Honestly, I don't like mock up others.
But
The facts say that India produces 81 out of 94 missile technologies, not Pakistan.

The facts say that India produces turbofan engines not Pakistan (they use NPO bought from USSR around 70s & 80s)

Facts say that India invests 25 times more in R&D.
The facts say that India scores 35 times more patents per capita than Pakistan and most innovative among all countries in third world.

Facts say that every country has announced missile failures in world except Pakistan.

If you guys really want, I can offer a healthy discussion over the issue of Babur-3 missile test if people don't troll.

Can't buy that argument of tomohock clone or Chinese missile with Pak paintings anymore. They do have their own terrain following subsonic cruise missile,that too for navy, airforce and army.

 

[Indx-techs]

Can't buy that argument of tomohock clone or Chinese missile with Pak paintings anymore.

I didn't give any such argument either. Come on Defence Forum India, we have collected technical details for other issue.
The issue of credibility of success and failures, we have even collected many previous undisclosed failure reports with location, terrain map and photographs.

As far as Nirbhay is concerned, we still got own engine and we still have 18 months.

They do have their own terrain following subsonic cruise missile,that too for navy, airforce and army.

but I have issue with this, without producing less than half of components, no one has right to boast.

Over that, a 450km range missile can give any strategic deterrence? No.

No NOTAM/NAVREA was filed, trajectory of official videos and photos doesn't match, separating the two mixed frames gives you impression of two different missiles plus I don't think it could travel 2,361 km to reach land. No country has ever tested sea to land in first SL missile.

 

[MimophantSlayer]

LCROSS spacecraft that flew into the ejecta plume and attempted to detect the presence of water vapor in the debris cloud.[53] Although no immediate spectacular plume was seen, time was needed to analyze the spectrometry data. On November 13, 2009 NASA reported that after analysis of the data obtained from the ejecta plume, the spectral signature of water had been confirmed.[10][54] However, what was actually detected was the chemical group hydroxyl ( · OH), which is suspected to be from water,[3] but could also be hydrates, which are inorganic salts containing chemically-bound water molecules.

The Mini-RF instrument on LRO observed the LCROSS landing site and did not detect any evidence of large slabs of water ice, so the water is most likely present as small pieces of ice mixed in with the lunar regolith.[56][57]

In November 2009, NASA re-confirmed water on moon with its LCROSS space probe which detected a significant amount of hydroxyl group in the material thrown up from a south polar crater by an impactor;[10] this may be attributed to water-bearing materials[11] – what appears to be "near pure crystalline water-ice".

On August 21, 2009, the spacecraft, along with the Chandrayaan-1 orbiter, attempted to perform a bistatic radar experiment to detect the presence of water ice on the lunar surface,[47][48] but the test was unsuccessful.[49]

All I can read from this is it is a speculation? Well if a sample can be brought back by Chandrayaan-2 and prove us all wrong, what Chang'e-3 resulsts suggest is the INDIAN instrument is subpar, not the US instrument, they might or might not be ice.

OH wow wikipedia data.
Try harder wiki engineer.

You didn't do exactly what I told you to do.
So now I get to humiliate you even further.


What proof do you have that the hydroxyl groups are some form of hydroxide other than water?
Hydroxyl radicals are already fast reacting and don't remain free for long in particular strata.
M3 data clearly showing different OH, WATER and ICE reflectance rate.

There is a difference between water and (hydroxides etc) they have different masses and hence reflect differently to radiation.
And that is why it is easier to detect water.

What??
You want a lake or something of free flowing water? Your ignorance clearly has no bounds


Nice try cherry picking the info confirming your so very skewed confirmation bias.
Try it on someone else who is as stupid as you.

You know what else Mini RF onboard LRO found?
Mini-RF or Mini SAR's, estimate was that there could be at least 600 million metric tons of water ice.

But that was the top imaging(which is probably why it didn't found large slabs) of 1 instrument.

Also on the LRO was the LOLA payload which claimed 22% water-ice to be "inside" Shackleton Crater.

Chang'e-3 resulsts suggest is the INDIAN instrument is subpar, not the US instrument.

What exact results?
Show them here.

How is US right and India wrong when both have the same results?
I'm guessing because your inferiority complex just woke up to 3 tests proving you wrong?
LOL.

Can't refute everyone so desperately beating around the bush now are you ?

First you said CHACE didn't find water and you were thoroughly spanked now you are saying CHACE's finding are of water vapour and actually those are wrong.

So I shall spank you back to the road one more time.

LCROSS team principal investigator Tony Colaprete.
“We measured it in water vapor,” Colaprete said, “and much more importantly in my mind, we measured it in water ice. Ice is really important because it talks about certain levels of concentration.”

With a combination of near-infrared, ultraviolet and visible spectrometers onboard the shepherding spacecraft, LCROSS found about 155 kilograms (342 pounds) of water vapor and water ice were blown out of crater and detected by LCROSS. From that, Colaprete and his team estimate that approximately 5.6 percent of the total mass inside Cabeus crater (plus or minus 2.9 percent) could be attributed to water ice alone.

HENCE PROVING THAT BOTH LCROSS AND CHACE FOUND VAPOUR.


As for "All I can read from this is it is a speculation".
You should read something other than wikipedia, clearly its a trolls paradise.

"We are ecstatic," said Anthony Colaprete, LCROSS project scientist and principal investigator at NASA's Ames Research Center in Moffett Field, Calif. "Multiple lines of evidence show water was present in both the high angle vapor plume and the ejecta curtain created by the LCROSS Centaur impact. The concentration and distribution of water and other substances requires further analysis, but it is safe to say Cabeus holds water."

"We were only able to match the spectra from LCROSS data when we inserted the spectra for water," said Colaprete. "No other reasonable combination of other compounds that we tried matched the observations. The possibility of contamination from the Centaur also was ruled out."

NASA isn't speculating anything, the only one speculating stuff out of thin air to support your very own brand of trolling is you.


It was stupid arguing with you that water exists but vapour doesn't, but that in itself was a stupid non-sensical claim you made only to troll. It is OBVIOUS that water vapour would also be found, but I had to make a troll see the truth. SO here you are.

Since you agree that you can't refute US data but are desperately trying to refute Indian data but cannot refute Indian data as I have proven they(Indian and US data) both have the same conclusion.

See, in your haste to spew venom against anything India, you took to wrestling with common sense to justify your trolling.
Unfortunately for you common sense always wins in the end.

China just proved there is no vapor in the atmosphere with the most precise UV sensor ever used for the moon. If you say there might be ice, I would still think it's possible but it requires prove, but 98km above the surface, there is definitely no water vapor, UNDERSTAND? CHACE is a subpar instrument, or somebody is lying to save face?

China proved nothing, also you are lying through your teeth.
Have some shame.

LRO had like 3 instruments far better than the inferior LUT on Chang'e 3.

LAMP UV imaging spectrograph its range being in the low 52 to 187 nm.
LROC WAC's ranges are 315-680nm whereas LROC NAC's spectral range is 400-750 nm also a Ritchey-Chretien telescope like the LUT on Chang'e 3 whose measly range is 245 to 340nm.

Show me any Chinese peer reviewed journal out there that says that "CINA HAS SPECIFICALLY SAID THAT THERE IS NO VAPOUR ON THE MOON"?
Did China actually refute the NASA and ISRO reports by saying so on record?
All I hear is journalists with no background in science coming to conclusions.

Where have the chinees said "ISRO and NASA are wrong"?
PROVE IT.


Now you are just desperate.
You can't really make me "UNDERSTAND" something I already understand far far better than you.


As I showed you Water has an atomic mass of 18amu and whereas hydroxyl has 17.01amu and CHACE has a range of 1-100amu with extremely high sensitivity of partial pressure detection capability (lesser than 10 to the power-13 torr) and also to provide very high altitudinal/latitudinal (250 m/0.1 deg) resolution.
It can easily differentiate between 17.01 - 17.0000001 to 18amu.


HEY, YOU ARE THE ONE WHO SAID YOUR LUT IS INFERIOR NOT ME.
Your inferior telescope cannot even detect planetary bodies properly because of OH vibrating differently on different spectral bands.
It is no match for something as specialised as a spectrometer that can detect something as precise as the atomic mass of water.

Yah and split second crash landing can provide awesome evidence? There is two conflicting arguments, one is saying no water, one is saying there is water, scientifically shouldn't a sample be taken back to close this argument?

25-minute & not just a split second spectrography with 650 mass spectra readings.
An RCT telescope over a mass spectrometer anyone worth their salt will go with the spectrometer's readings.

Where is "that one" saying "there is no water"? I want to see it too.

You'll get a sample, but until then ISRO and NASA are right.
If not, then show me a peer reviewed CNSA journal saying, "ISRO and NASA are wrong there is no water or vapour on the moon".
Not some presstitute SOOPER DOOPER finding or your engineering opinion.

Hell our lander and rover is also landing on the Mare Imbrium this year, imagine if we again discover something path breaking and that too in the same place you lot are naming rocks and stuff. It will seriously be funny LOL.

 

[#hydra#]

I didn't give any such argument either. Come on Defence Forum India, we have collected technical details for other issue.
The issue of credibility of success and failures, we have even collected many previous undisclosed failure reports with location, terrain map and photographs.

As far as Nirbhay is concerned, we still got own engine and we still have 18 months.
but I have issue with this, without producing less than half of components, no one has right to boast.

Over that, a 450km range missile can give any strategic deterrence? No.

No NOTAM/NAVREA was filed, trajectory of official videos and photos doesn't match, separating the two mixed frames gives you impression of two different missiles plus I don't think it could travel 2,361 km to reach land. No country has ever tested sea to land in first SL missile.

450km is more than sufficient to give us headache,this missile can't reach our capital but surely our financial capital is in theirs range.

 

[Imran Khan]

450km is more than sufficient to give us headache,this missile can't reach our capital but surely our financial capital is in theirs range.

This is not end sir sure they will increase range with more payload when we have bigger torpedo tubes in new subs

 

[#hydra#]

This is not end sir sure they will increase range with more payload when we have bigger torpedo tubes in new subs

May not be in near future,you may be able to increase efficiency by Maxim 30 percentage.

 

[Imran Khan]

May not be in near future,you may be able to increase efficiency by Maxim 30 percentage.

How we know whats going on in nescom sir

 

[Han Patriot]

OH wow wikipedia data.
T
There is a difference between water and (hydroxides etc) they have different masses and hence reflect differently to radiation.
And that is why it is easier to detect water.

What??
You want a lake or something of free flowing water? Your ignorance clearly has no bounds


Nice try cherry picking the info confirming your so very skewed confirmation bias.
Try it on someone else who is as stupid as you.

You know what else Mini RF onboard LRO found?
Mini-RF or Mini SAR's, estimate was that there could be at least 600 million metric tons of water ice.

But that was the top imaging(which is probably why it didn't found large slabs) of 1 instrument.

Also on the LRO was the LOLA payload which claimed 22% water-ice to be "inside" Shackleton Crater.

Dude, you gotta stop using CAPS, COLORS and BIG FONTS, it's a pain for me to read. Is this some sort of strategy to distract me from debating? There is no point pasting pictures with no explanation and then overwhelming some one. Dissect the facts and present it in a coherent manner.

You are typing like a retard here, pouncing here and there like a 5 year old playing with crayons..

1)Can you provide me a quote and evidence they found 600 million tonnes of ice or water?
2) How are they differentiating OH of water and other minerals with OH like Magnesium Hydroxide since the wiki link above clearly says they can't differentiate it. Please no more caps and big fonts, try to explain it professionally.
3) Did they find water or hydroxide? The link seems to say its hydroxide.

What exact results?
Show them here.

How is US right and India wrong when both have the same results?
I'm guessing because your inferiority complex just woke up to 3 tests proving you wrong?
LOL.

Can't refute everyone so desperately beating around the bush now are you ?

First you said CHACE didn't find water and you were thoroughly spanked now you are saying CHACE's finding are of water vapour and actually those are wrong.

So I shall spank you back to the road one more time.

LCROSS team principal investigator Tony Colaprete.
“We measured it in water vapor,” Colaprete said, “and much more importantly in my mind, we measured it in water ice. Ice is really important because it talks about certain levels of concentration.”

With a combination of near-infrared, ultraviolet and visible spectrometers onboard the shepherding spacecraft, LCROSS found about 155 kilograms (342 pounds) of water vapor and water ice were blown out of crater and detected by LCROSS. From that, Colaprete and his team estimate that approximately 5.6 percent of the total mass inside Cabeus crater (plus or minus 2.9 percent) could be attributed to water ice alone.

HENCE PROVING THAT BOTH LCROSS AND CHACE FOUND VAPOUR.

The point is this Chang'e-3 prove that there couldn't possibly be vapor at the 'atmosphere' with the first actual measurement of it on the moon. Remember this is the first time it was done in human history, there was so much water claimed by LRCROSS and Chandrayaan that at first the mission was concerned about the LUT functioning since it was so sensitive.

You can't retrieve something to prove the absence of something, understand? You can only retrieve something to prove the the existence of something. LOL...what a smart Indy.

You have to stop typing like a madmen and expecting me to debate OK? Slow down, list down the points properly and dissect it. Then we will check the validity of each evidence. Just because you talk and talk and talk doesn't mean it is correct. Crazy people shout and talk alot too..LOL Typical Indy, they go crazy when they feel they are losing an argument

 

[Han Patriot]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsore...18/lunar-probe-confirms-no-water-on-moon.html

Equipped with the world's first extreme ultraviolet imager,

Subpar instrument?

Meanwhile, several new lunar missions were launched. The ones using neutron spectroscopy to search for water came up with mixed conclusions, but those using infrared spectroscopy seemed to reach unambiguous identification of water on the lunar surface.

"We've measured the amount of water on the lunar surface and above, but only found the lowest quantities so far, which is in line with the expectations of the experts on the formation of the moon,” Wen Jianyan, a researcher from the Chinese Academy of Sciences, said.

Basically, two types of spectroscopy with two different results. Which is true?

Chang'e 3 made the first-ever geological map of the moon with lunar-penetrating radar, and also discovered a new type of rock – the lunar basalt, providing an insight into the evolution of the moon and the basis to explore its resources.

Alot of the worlds first I am seeing here!



http://phys.org/news/2015-12-chinese-rover-moon-ground-truth.html

The story has another twist that also underscores the importance of checking orbital data against ground truth. The remote sensing data for Chang'e-3's landing site showed that it was rich in olivine as well as titanium.