Jihad unlimited: Does Kashmir need a military response or a political one?

[Jamwal's]

It is, within the constraints that the Army of a democracy is bound to put upon itself.

@hellfire , I want to raise my fear with you, not to sensationalise it, but to point out a reality, that there is a lot of the old school tie business happening, a tendency to brush bad things under the carpet, and that is bad for us. It is for the officer corps to set an example, and it is increasingly difficult in today's fluid and messy situation, but it is all the more a demand that has to be made of the leadership of the Army.

The second point is that the Army is getting an increasingly unpleasant reputation due to the utter incompetence of the CRPF, for instance, and even on occasion the BSF, although these latter to a lesser extent than the former. What I am talking about is the gap between the RR and the Kashmir Police, who need backup in riot situations, that the RR simply cannot provide. Why can't the Ministry of Home Affairs build a cadre of dedicated policemen specifically for specialised management of these situations? I can name a dozen things that have to go into the playbook, which is not happening because of the bad training that these officers and men receive.



The kind of thoughtless and provocative statement that makes the day for bhakts. What a crass and unfeeling thing to say. That one act of terrorism will compensate for another.



The figures are clear: XIV Corps in Dras and Leh, XV in Gurez and Baramula (if I remember correctly), and XVI in Jammu, Rajauri and Yol! So where did this magic figure come from? Even adding the RR doesn't bring the figure anywhere close to the one going around.

They might have add paramilitary deployment because RR strength is only 80,000 ~ troops.

 

[HAIDER]

Less than 50,000 dead. Not 90,000. Using propaganda-related figures lowers the credibility of your post. The break-up makes even more interesting reading; do try it.

This is Indian govt claim , its govt mouth piece not independent source....
"
NEW DEHLI: Nearly 40,000 people have been killed in violence that has erupted over Indian-held Kashmir more than two decades ago, the national parliament was told on Wednesday.


Junior home minister Jitendra Prasad said 39,918 had died including 21,323 “terrorists” – the word used by India to describe insurgents battling New Delhi’s rule in the disputed region.


“As per reports, 13,226 civilians and 5,369 security force personnel have been killed in terrorist violence in Jammu and Kashmir during the period from year 1990 to April 2011,” the minister told parliament.


The figure is lower than the official police count in Indian Kashmir of more than 47,000 dead.

Some rights groups in Kashmir say the toll could be close to 100,000 from the revolt which began in late 1989"

 

[shree835]

Kashmir need response like pakistan and china...India should learn from pakistan and China... we should deal with those like how china and pakistan dealing with separatist....Don think Kashmir people feel bad , coz they will be getting treatment like pakistan and china.

 

[Mustang06]

Either young Kashmiri's work with the state government by educating themselves and joining the system to develop the society or pick up gun against the same government and get killed. All on the words of a man who is sitting across the border far away from fight for his Kashmiri brethrens!

 

[shree835]

Military action is going on since many decades.....what else. 90,000 dead and thousands missing. Unmarked graves etc etc....these are all sign of war, not peace. Draconian law etc etc..
India can have all out war with its almost 8 lakh armed men.

No worry...we are ready to kill another 10 lacks+... Kashmir is integral part of India, we will try to make them understand till his last breath....they have to decide , how they want to understand.

 

[Jamwal's]

Proxy war is the way to go.Agencies have to be more proactive

Yeah.

According to Col RSN Singh ex RAW the answer to proxy war is proxy war not conventional.

And we are blessed with a competent agency, i mean it could wipe out the entire generations of Indian's enemy, not even coming to the limelight.

Proxy war is the way to go.Agencies have to be more proactive

Yeah.

According to Col RSN Singh ex RAW the answer to proxy war is proxy war not conventional.

 

[WhyCry]

Policy makers in pakistan are too bad for their own good. Lets not give them reasons to justify their acts. They already have waziristan and balochistan simmering with no addition by india. They go to foriegn countries and make a good laughing stock.

What we have to do is win over the minds and hearts of the people. Well article 370 is very restrictive in nature since its very hard to make investments in the region the youth have no choice to either move into urban india or be a part of the retoric of sepreratists and/or become paid goons. This second chain needs to be broken and made a part of the indian diverse society.

 

[fitpOsitive]

The only possible way to reduce violence from India is to reduce the price of Indian blood.
An Indian civilian should be killed for the death of each Kashmiri civilian.
If a Kashmiri civilian is not innocent then how can we assume an Indian civilian to be innocent ? After all,Kashmir is an integral part of India and all Indians are equal.
Somebody has to do it..make Indian blood cheaper.
Pakistan in the current situation has the political nor the military will or might to do it.
Proxy war is the way to go.Agencies have to be more proactive..but that requires support from political leadership which isn't there.Something has to be done.

Wow, kia khayalat hain janab k.
Dont you think Indian people are also humans and are worthy of living happy normal life? Rather we can solve problems through other, and peaceful means?

 

[Joe Shearer]

They might have add paramilitary deployment because RR strength is only 80,000 ~ troops.

Even then: 46000+80000+50000(?)= 176,000, spread over a population of 7,500,000 (75 lakhs or 7.5 million, about one per forty people?).

How many CRPF constables are there in J&K? Even if they are all there, the figures come out strange: total strength less than 310,000, in 135 battalions of roughly 1,200 each; not more than 30 or 40 battalions in J&K, from all accounts.

Wow, kia khayalat hain janab k.
Dont you think Indian people are also humans and are worthy of living happy normal life? Rather we can solve problems through other, and peaceful means?

Violence is not the answer, for either side, or for any side.

This is Indian govt claim , its govt mouth piece not independent source....
"
NEW DEHLI: Nearly 40,000 people have been killed in violence that has erupted over Indian-held Kashmir more than two decades ago, the national parliament was told on Wednesday.


Junior home minister Jitendra Prasad said 39,918 had died including 21,323 “terrorists” – the word used by India to describe insurgents battling New Delhi’s rule in the disputed region.


“As per reports, 13,226 civilians and 5,369 security force personnel have been killed in terrorist violence in Jammu and Kashmir during the period from year 1990 to April 2011,” the minister told parliament.


The figure is lower than the official police count in Indian Kashmir of more than 47,000 dead.

Some rights groups in Kashmir say the toll could be close to 100,000 from the revolt which began in late 1989"

Wrong.

Quite apart from the government, independent sources, human rights activists without a bias, have estimated a similar figure. It was published only a few days ago in PDF.

I hope we agree that 40,000 is too many, forget about inflated figures of 90 to 100,000?

Policy makers in pakistan are too bad for their own good. Lets not give them reasons to justify their acts. They already have waziristan and balochistan simmering with no addition by india. They go to foriegn countries and make a good laughing stock.

What we have to do is win over the minds and hearts of the people. Well article 370 is very restrictive in nature since its very hard to make investments in the region the youth have no choice to either move into urban india or be a part of the retoric of sepreratists and/or become paid goons. This second chain needs to be broken and made a part of the indian diverse society.

I hope you know what Article 370 is. It has absolutely nothing to do with investment; it deals with the transfer of subjects from the State List to the Concurrent List or to the Central List.

 

[WhyCry]

I know what that is. It is basically a binding in the indian constitution wher j&k is allowed to have its own constitution. What it also doesnt allowis to own land by non- kashmiris due to pending referendum. This is what supports my previous comment.

 

[Neuro]

Its just a riot why Pakistanis overreacted for that I don't know. What is motive of the riot?? terrorists shouldn't get killed??? stupid logic. IMO whoever doing/involving in tis riot they should be butchered without mercy...... 41 is not a big number. Don't compare our kids with Pakistani/Kashmiri kids they are different league , the pig Burhan wani joined terrorist organisation at age of 15 it means atleast 4-6yrs he got motivated b4 joining such terror group .

 

[Hellfire]

An Indian civilian should be killed for the death of each Kashmiri civilian.

What will it achieve? Except that the valley will be empty and India will have less population which will be made up in next 24 hours?

Somebody has to do it..make Indian blood cheaper.

Who will do that? Pakistan? Unlikely seeing the state of affairs in your nation and the cost in terms of human lives being extracted daily.

Pakistan in the current situation has the political nor the military will or might to do it.
Proxy war is the way to go.Agencies have to be more proactive..but that requires support from political leadership which isn't there.Something has to be done.

Costs will rise for you too, significantly and exponentially; you might not be able to bear them! The more the violence is stoked in valley the greater will be the resultant crackdown .. the more the people will suffer.

You are just not able to get it. India has already won the diplomatic war of Kashmir, no one in the world cares a damn except for the obligatory lip service from OIC once in a while. All India needs to do now, is to win the emotional war, that will take a long time. And that is where Pakistani support can only delay not defeat India.

If you truly care for the Kashmiris, then let peace reign and then have faith in democracy. If Kashmir wants to be independent, it has to strengthen democracy, if it wants to better integrate with India, it has to strengthen democracy. And in democracy, employment of force(violence) rests exclusively with Government and none other. Whatever future Kashmir wants is through peace and democracy, not violence. The days are gone wherein anyone will invade India over Kashmir or you will be able to exact unmanageable economic or human costs from India. Simply not happening.

@hellfire , I want to raise my fear with you, not to sensationalise it, but to point out a reality, that there is a lot of the old school tie business happening, a tendency to brush bad things under the carpet, and that is bad for us. It is for the officer corps to set an example, and it is increasingly difficult in today's fluid and messy situation, but it is all the more a demand that has to be made of the leadership of the Army.

Sir, the unfortunate aspect of social liberalisation in India is that today the forces are an increased reflection of the society we live in - disorganised, lawless and uncontrollable. In words of PG Wodehouse "downright bad eggs".

Sadly, the easing of norms under guise of social justice and equality has ensured that certain strata of officer corps exist in both forces and civil services, which may not have had an ideal grooming in their varied background and which did not assimilate the lessons of education or training that was imparted into their professional (and even personal) lives.

That being said, there is an increased confusion as to the task for the armed forces in Kashmir today. The objective to bring down level of violence has been achieved. But what else has to be done, and why is army being employed continuously in an environment wherein the police forces need to be bolstered and act decisively in civil management, is something that needs to be answered.

A small example. On a particular date (I will not quote it for apparent reasons) an army convoy was ambushed at a particular spot a few years back. The bus ferrying the troops was targeted. The officer in the bus, could see the militants who were targeting the bus, and had the option to engage and neutralise the militants involved as he was pretty confident of his firing capabilities (marksman). But he chose not to. Reason:

1. The militants were firing from the courtyard of a roadside house and there were women and children lined up behind them with fear on their faces.

2. Firing from inside the bus would have required opening of windows and other measures which would have allowed the militants to toss in grenades unimpeded. A sure recipe for disaster.

The result was that the militants fled the scene. Thankfully no casualties were sustained on the bus.

Now if we analyse the actions of this officer, he could have got his kills, been hailed a hero and ensured no loss of his men, all, had he chosen to engage and neutralise the militants (they were closely placed hence would have been engaged and neutralised with an initial fire itself). He would have also denied the militants a PR victory had they been killed.

But by not doing so, he ensured he didn't loose any men, and most importantly didn't loose the women and children who were directly behind the militants and may have been coerced to stand there for potential collateral damage and to serve as a propaganda tool in case army retaliated. In the process, the officer was lauded by the army and his superiors for this action, inspite of a clear PR victory for militants. (they were killed within a month; were part time militants). Had he got the kills, would have been decorations and career advancement, now, just another lucky SOB to survive an ambush.

When I quote this example, I want to emphasise that there are thousands of these type of young men and women in our armed forces still. Inspite of the despair we feel after seeing our officer cadre at times, things are not that bad.

The second point is that the Army is getting an increasingly unpleasant reputation due to the utter incompetence of the CRPF, for instance, and even on occasion the BSF, although these latter to a lesser extent than the former. What I am talking about is the gap between the RR and the Kashmir Police, who need backup in riot situations, that the RR simply cannot provide. Why can't the Ministry of Home Affairs build a cadre of dedicated policemen specifically for specialised management of these situations? I can name a dozen things that have to go into the playbook, which is not happening because of the bad training that these officers and men receive.

Couldn't agree with you more. There is a requirement to upgrade the JKP and CRPF skills for effective yet non-lethal crowd management in kashmir. Why it is not taking place, is something that beats me.

 

[RepublicOk]

Of course Kashmir needs a political solution but it doesn't mean we turn a blind eye to those who picked up arms against the state...

 

[Eminent Mainstream Media]

Nicely summed up by Tavleen Singh. Thanks for the post @eyeswideshut.

While it is true that there is a need for a political solution to Kashmir, for without a political process and long term policy implementation all military gains will be lost, there is no denying the shift in nature of the movement in Kashmir. The influx of Wahab money, which was 'enabled' by Intelligence agencies in order to pit the ultra-Islamists against the predominant Sufi Kashmiris, paid short term dividends in terms of pitting the two against each other thereby undermining and indeed reversing the movement in Kashmir by 2008.

However, the negative offshoot of such an ill thought out policy is the aforementioned radicalisation. I had pointed out the fact that between 2008-2013, there have been an increase in number of women wearing a hijab, previously unheard of in the valley itself.

This is an example of the social undercurrents that point to a graver threat to the Kashmiri society, as increasingly the situation is becoming wherein the Kashmiri struggle is losing legitimacy as a genuine struggle for people of Kashmir (as perceived by the world and some lost souls in India) and now becoming a trend of global islamic takfiri jihad.

That this change in the tone and posture of the Kashmiri separatists as also armed groups, plays right into the Indian hands is a foregone conclusion.

I think we need to go back a bit further in History- When this Takfiri ideology was actually put in place there- and It was before the direct action day of Jinnah way back when Sheikh Abdullah returned from AMU with not so pleasant parting memories- and started taking control of politics there- 1989, 2010 or 2016 all are continuation of the same politics- toned at will by various players to suit their will and plans in Kashmir- It just seems to be taking Global color recently because of Internet and smart phones-

The second point is that the Army is getting an increasingly unpleasant reputation due to the utter incompetence of the CRPF, for instance, and even on occasion the BSF, although these latter to a lesser extent than the former. What I am talking about is the gap between the RR and the Kashmir Police, who need backup in riot situations, that the RR simply cannot provide. Why can't the Ministry of Home Affairs build a cadre of dedicated policemen specifically for specialised management of these situations? I can name a dozen things that have to go into the playbook, which is not happening because of the bad training that these officers and men receive.

I am unable recall the exact details but but recently I came to know about new companies being raised for CRPF or some reserved force consisting of only Tribals of Chattisgarh and Kashmiris-

 

[Butchcassidy]

Even then: 46000+80000+50000(?)= 176,000, spread over a population of 7,500,000 (75 lakhs or 7.5 million, about one per forty people?).

How many CRPF constables are there in J&K? Even if they are all there, the figures come out strange: total strength less than 310,000, in 135 battalions of roughly 1,200 each; not more than 30 or 40 battalions in J&K, from all accounts.



Violence is not the answer, for either side, or for any side.



Wrong.

Quite apart from the government, independent sources, human rights activists without a bias, have estimated a similar figure. It was published only a few days ago in PDF.

I hope we agree that 40,000 is too many, forget about inflated figures of 90 to 100,000?



I hope you know what Article 370 is. It has absolutely nothing to do with investment; it deals with the transfer of subjects from the State List to the Concurrent List or to the Central List.

You r trying to reason with people who will lie to your face. They think a lie if repeated a thousand times over becomes the truth.
Ignore them, their own ignorance will destroy them