What's new

Japan's Rail Project Loss To China: Why It Matters For Abe's Economic Diplomacy And For China's !

Different countries vary a lot in their policy/legislation about foreign investment, that's a sovereign rights, I have absolutely no comment on that. Likewise, Indonesia has their own, why you bring your country into this? Yours is kind of like international benchmark, high standard? Also btw, define "Indian Companies".

On this case, the JV is 60% owned by an Indonesian SOE, 40% by CRI, incorporated under the law of Indonesia. Tell me how you relate this to loss of sovereignty?
There is no provision for any regulator. This means this company can charge anything from consumers. In every country there is regulator for utilities. Thats why I say sovereignty is lost.

That's because only Indian companies invest in India. Companies in the U.S. realize how much of a burden it is to do business in India, because of a lack of results after committing verbally each and every time.

Not only that, U.S. corporations bail out Indian partners very frequently because they go bankrupt so soon from an internal lack of leadership and direction, a lack of technical know-how and and attitude to learn .

The automotive world is rich in examples of this.
Shows your frustration. This year India is getting highest FDI.

For Bold Red :
what you mean about Indonesia has given up its sovereignty to China?
You better Shut your mouth !

Indonesian parties will hold a 60 percent stake in the venture, and the Chinese the remaining 40 percent. The China Development Bank will finance 75 per cent of the cost.

Indonesia, China sign $7.6 billion high-speed rail deal, SE Asia News & Top Stories - The Straits Times

For Bold Blue :
Yes, I agree with you in that point. :-)

For Bold Green :
That's why Indonesia will have High Speed Railway before than India.
Hope the Difference Between india and Indonesia in 2019, not like this. LOL

Indian Train
India-Over-Crowded-Rail-Transportation-_-8.jpg


Indonesia Train in 2019
chinese-bullet-train.jpg

cache%2F10%2F50%2F10502dee2dafe8fbd30ecf2c3049aee2.jpg

ce26cd167eaa405fa6b4de9e99638e66.jpg




Yes, I agree with you.
Japanese really Conservative in Bussiness, Chinese is More Aggressive and More 'Risk Taker' in Bussiness matter.
It's better to bussiness with Chinese, Honestly speaking.



The project was once eyed by Japan, which had even conducted a US$6 million feasibility study, but President Joko Widodo rejected Tokyo's proposal because it involved financing from the Indonesian government.

Indonesia, China sign $7.6 billion high-speed rail deal, SE Asia News & Top Stories - The Straits Times

and Thanks Japan for Your US$ 6 Million in Feasibility study. LOL :woot:
Air travel is better than HSR. We do not want HSR. We will develop our aviation sector.
 
.
There is no provision for any regulator. This means this company can charge anything from consumers. In every country there is regulator for utilities. Thats why I say sovereignty is lost.

Fell free to charge $1.000.0000 per trip, then people can use slow train, bus, rent a car, plane, etc. The OP already give Taiwan as example where people prefer cheaper transportation mode. In the end it's just about faster train not life and death medicine or something......
 
.
Fell free to charge $1.000.0000 per trip, then people can use slow train, bus, rent a car, plane, etc. The OP already give Taiwan as example where people prefer cheaper transportation mode. In the end it's just about faster train not life and death medicine or something......

Just review Indian rail system and see how their shiny air transportation is taking over and hence rendering railway obsolete.

As if India not only became a superpower in 2012, but also became another US where weak railway is compensated by world-class air transport and the related logistic, including highways and private transportation.

Indonesia is on the right track, and given its population and potential for growth, investment in railways for mass transportation in mega cities is the rational choice.

No sovereignty is in danger as the terms and conditions of the agreement is well-defined and the Indonesian side is the majority stakeholder.

But it is worthless to debate with that Indian because they have a weird circular logic. They will keep repeating the same argument through different wordings until you give up the debate.

Their debate style is very much like their governance: Inconclusive, inefficient, and worthless.
 
.
There is no provision for any regulator. This means this company can charge anything from consumers. In every country there is regulator for utilities. Thats why I say sovereignty is lost.

Read:
  1. Price regulation only applies to monopolized services. Are people currently blocked, or would HSR become the only option, for traveling between Jakarta & Bandung?
  2. As mentioned in the OP, this exactly is the rationale between Japanese decision to backout from the project i.e. lack of income/profit guarantee, you have a comprehension problem?
  3. You seems to have a basic literacy problem, the JV is 60% owned by a Indonesian SOE, hence a subsidiary, incorporated under the law of Indonesia.
Now with these facts, how does that adversely affect Indonesian sovereignty?

Shows your frustration. This year India is getting highest FDI.

You mean this?

It's just utter disinformation, and illiterate conclusion. There is no way that Ernst & Young (which conducted a "survey" to a confined number of respondents) nor fDi Markets (I also demand an explanation on the use of "CAPEX" in reporting FDI, why?) has more reliable data on Foreign Direct Investments than the Reserve Bank of India or another government department like DIPP. These are official sources:
According to the RBI data, Indian FDI stood at $18.9 billion in the first half of 2015. During the same period, FDI to China was $68.4 billion (Up 8% YOY), FDI to US was $72.1 billion.

Number one? Not even close, you just made an illiterate statement, again, what are you trying to show the forum?

@Daniel808 @General Observer
 
.
Read:
  1. Price regulation only applies to monopolized services. Are people currently blocked, or would HSR become the only option, for traveling between Jakarta & Bandung?
  2. As mentioned in the OP, this exactly is the rationale between Japanese decision to backout from the project i.e. lack of income/profit guarantee, you have a comprehension problem?
  3. You seems to have a basic literacy problem, the JV is 60% owned by a Indonesian SOE, hence a subsidiary, incorporated under the law of Indonesia.
Now with these facts, how does that adversely affect Indonesian sovereignty?



You mean this?

It's just utter disinformation, and illiterate conclusion. There is no way that Ernst & Young (which conducted a "survey" to a confined number of respondents) nor fDi Markets (I also demand an explanation on the use of "CAPEX" in reporting FDI, why?) has more reliable data on Foreign Direct Investments than the Reserve Bank of India or another government department like DIPP. These are official sources:
According to the RBI data, Indian FDI stood at $18.9 billion in the first half of 2015. During the same period, FDI to China was $68.4 billion (Up 8% YOY), FDI to US was $72.1 billion.

Number one? Not even close, you just made an illiterate statement, again, what are you trying to show the forum?
RBI data only includes fresh equity investments. FT data includes fresh equity investment + retained earnings + debt.

Different institutions have different methods. FT uses a single method for all countries.
 
.
RBI data only includes fresh equity investments. FT data includes fresh equity investment + retained earnings + debt.

Different institutions have different methods. FT uses a single method for all countries.


So according to you, it's their own formula, but they still made the comparison by stealing the standard definition of FDI made by inter-governmental bodies. That's even worse than mathematical error, it's intentional cheating.

You do knew this in advance before you quote them and made your claim, or not?
  1. If you didn't know: then in addition to your "sovereignty" claim, you have a bigger literacy problem.
  2. If you do know: then you have a serious moral issue by deliberately making false claim and quoting twisted stories.
Which of the above are you?
 
Last edited:
.
So according to you, it's their own formula, but they still made the comparison by stealing the standard definition of FDI made by inter-governmental bodies. That's even worse than mathematical error, it's intentional cheating.

You do knew this in advance before you quote them and made your claim, or not?
  1. If you didn't know: then in addition to your "sovereignty" claim, you have a bigger literacy problem.
  2. If you do know: then you have a moral issue by deliberately making false claim and quoting twisted stories.
Which of the above are you?

You know, the Indian person will never respond your questions, but try to derail the debate by bringing out further talking points.

Indian logic.
 
. .
So according to you, it's their own formula, but they still made the comparison by stealing the standard definition of FDI made by inter-governmental bodies. That's even worse than mathematical error, it's intentional cheating.

You do knew this in advance before you quote them and made your claim, or not?
  1. If you didn't know: then in addition to your "sovereignty" claim, you have a bigger literacy problem.
  2. If you do know: then you have a moral issue by deliberately making false claim and quoting twisted stories.
Which of the above are you?
As alluded to earlier, according to the international definition (i.e. BPM5 and OECD definition), reinvested earning is a part of FDI. But as per the present practice in India, reinvested earnings are not captured in its FDI data. Furthermore, according to the international definition, there is a category of other capital, which covers the borrowing and lending of funds-including debt securities and suppliers credits between direct investors and subsidiaries, branches and associates.

Reserve Bank of India - Reports

RBI does not take retained earnings as part of FDI as per international norms. Thats why RBI figures of FDI underestimate true FDI in India. Plus india only takes equity as FDI & not debt as per international norms. This further underestimates FDI in India. FT data has added retained earnings & debt as per international norms to calculate FDI data for India. As per this India is number one in first 6 months this year.
 
.
As alluded to earlier, according to the international definition (i.e. BPM5 and OECD definition), reinvested earning is a part of FDI. But as per the present practice in India, reinvested earnings are not captured in its FDI data. Furthermore, according to the international definition, there is a category of other capital, which covers the borrowing and lending of funds-including debt securities and suppliers credits between direct investors and subsidiaries, branches and associates.

Reserve Bank of India - Reports

RBI does not take retained earnings as part of FDI as per international norms. Thats why RBI figures of FDI underestimate true FDI in India. Plus india only takes equity as FDI & not debt as per international norms. This further underestimates FDI in India. FT data has added retained earnings & debt as per international norms to calculate FDI data for India. As per this India is number one in first 6 months this year.


Did you even bother to check the content, the date, of your link? Let me do it for you:
Reserve Bank of India - Reports
It's a Report of The Committee on Compilation of FDI in India, dated October 2002, posted 30 June 2003. The purpose was to bring FDI reporting from pre-2002 practice of excluding retained earnings, excluding other capital (pertains to debt transactions between parent and subsidiaries/branches of FDI enterprises), to international standard BPM 5.​

Now check latest bulletin, 2014-2015:
Reserve Bank of India - RBI Bulletin
By now RBI has already adopted international practice in reporting FDI, conforming to BPM 5 by reporting all standard components of BoP.
It clearly, literally, explicitly, stated that: FDI = Equity + Reinvested Earnings + Other Capital - Repatriation
Do you have basic reading problem?​

Are you intentionally cheating this forum by bringing in a decade-old report which is no longer valid, or simply an all-rounded illiterate?
 
Last edited:
.
“How did we lose to China in Indonesia!?”

This is the question being worriedly debated in government offices and executive suites throughout Japan.

What makes the question–and its answer–particularly urgent and fraught for Japan is a nagging suspicion, and fear, that China’s come-from-behind victory in the two country competition for the $5 billion high speed rail project could be a harbinger of further humiliating and costly defeats in competition for Asian infrastructure projects.

Continued losing in such competition would gravely imperil one of Japanese industry’s key growth strategies and, not trivially, undermine a pillar of the Abe government’s Asian regional diplomatic strategy.

Just now the shock and disappointment of losing this particular project in arguably the most attractive Asian market for new infrastructure–Indonesia, with a population of 250 million–is already shaking Japanese confidence.


The bad news was delivered in Tokyo on September 29 by Indonesia’s national development planning minister, Sofyan Djalil, in a meeting with Abe government cabinet secretary Suga Yoshihide. The message was that Indonesian president Joko Widoko had made a choice between the Japanese and Chinese project proposals and had selected the one from China.

China_trains.jpeg


Commenting later, Suga called the decision “extremely regrettable” and “difficult to understand.”

Teten Maskuki, the Indonesian president’s chief of staff, was quoted as saying that Joko’s decision rested mainly on China’s final approach, which was to take a more “business-to-business” approach, as opposed to Japan’s more “government-to-government” approach.

But such an explanation tells us little about the history, the back story, or, indeed, the denouement–if it is the denouement–of this battle of Asia’s industrial titans for a symbolically, as well as substantively, important project.

The back story was informatively told in a Japanese language article dated September 22 on the Toyo Keizai Online site. The article appeared after the Indonesian government had announced on September 3, to the surprise of everyone (see my post) that it was rejecting both of the “final” proposals that had been received after frantic jockeying, sweetening, and maneuvering for advantage by Japan and China.

“Seven years of Japanese efforts have come to nothing,” began the article. Planning of project–a high speed (300 kms/hr) rail line extending 730 kilometers across the island of Java from Jakarta to Surubaya–began in earnest in 2009 with a Japanese government-sponsored feasibility study.

The study concluded that commercial feasibility–in terms of highest expected demand from passengers–was strongest for the 144 kilometer section between Jakarta and Bandung. Having performed the study, and fully confident in the world-beating quality and reliability of Japan Rail’s Shinkansen technology and knowhow, Japan expected to get the project mandate.

Japan’s project plan called for a five year construction period, including a full one year trial operation period. If construction were to start in 2018 the line would be ready to take passengers in 2023. Total cost would be some Rupiah 64 trillion (JPY 534.6 billion, or $4.5 billion).

The Japanese government operating through JICA (the Japanese International Cooperation Agency) would finance 75% of the cost with a 0.1% long term yen loan (terms and conditions in conformity with international convention for concessionary financing). The remaining 25% would have to be raised by the Indonesian government and private enterprises.

Importantly, Japan’s concessionary loan would–in accordance with international conventions for official government lending–require an Indonesian government guarantee.

Then, in October 2014, as the Japanese agencies and companies prepared for the project, something happened in Indonesia: the swearing in as president of Joko Widoko.

Campaigning for office Joko had called for greater infrastructure investment, and it was taken for granted that he was a supporter of the Java high speed rail project. However, Joko had campaigned as a “man of the people” whose priority would be improving welfare for Indonesia’s common and rural people over the more affluent people in the big cities.

In January this year the Joko government essentially stopped preparations for the high-speed rail project. In March, Joko traveled to Tokyo and Beijing.

In Tokyo March 22-25 Joko with Prime Minister Abe and other officials. Joko got a commitment for Japanese yen loan support for improving Jakarta’s municipal rail network, but no progress was made on resolving issues with the Jakarta-Bandung high-speed rail project.

MCBXghO.jpg


Then, on March 26, Joko visited Beijing and met Chinese president Xi Jinping. Xi publicly announced support for the Indonesian high speed project and the two governments signed a memorandum specifying China’s interest in the Jakarta-Bandung line.

Well before the Joko-Xi meeting China had entered competition for the project. China’s proposal was for a total project cost of Rupiah 74 trillion (JPY 618.2 billion, $5.2 billion). The cost was higher than Japan’s, but China committed to financing the entire amount at an interest rate of 2%. Moreover, the project would be completed in three years–meaning taking passengers in 2018.

Indonesia had hired an investment bank to evaluate the Chinese and Japanese proposals. What seemed to matter most, however, was Indonesia’s increasingly firm demand that the project should not even be included in the government’s budget and insistence that no government guarantee would be given.

The high costs of project proposals were also declared unacceptable. When the cost was determined to be associated with the proposed 300 kms/hour speed of the line, Indonesia officials offered that a speed of 200-250 kms/hour would also be acceptable, expecting therefrom to cut construction costs by 30-40%.

That China was awarded the project and Japan rejected seems to owe mainly to China’s willingness to accept the financial risk of the project (i.e., to forego an Indonesian government guarantee and also, thereby, possibly to finesse international ODA norms) and of Japan’s inability or unwillingness to do so.

The Toyo Keizei piece makes the point that such projects’ risks are not small. Taiwan is an example. Taiwan’s high-speed rail line enjoys relatively heavy business passenger traffic, which allows relatively expensive ticket prices. But the high prices seem to have discouraged non-business passengers, such that ridership numbers have fallen short of forecasts and revenues have proven insufficient to cover debt service requirements.

Compared with Taiwan, Indonesia is a very poor country. Given that business traffic will be relatively limited, ticket prices will have to be set low to be affordable for average citizens (and to avoid political backlash). Generating sufficient cash flow for debt service looks like a formidable challenge.

That China is willing to take the risk speaks volumes about how China views infrastructure aid in the Asian region. According to press reports China sweetened its offer in other ways as well, including committing to establish a joint venture with Indonesian firms to produce rolling stock for high-speed rail, electric rail, light rail systems, not only for Indonesia, but also for export to other Asian countries; to transfer related technology; and also to renovate and rebuild train stations.

Having benefitted immensely from Japan-China competition in one project, Indonesia is hoping to keep Japan (and of course also China) interested in the next ones. Sofyan was careful when delivered the negative verdict to assure Japan that there are many other projects for which Japanese technology and aid will be warmly welcomed.

Intriguingly, so far China’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs has not officially reacted to China’s winning of the project. Does this mean that the mandate has not officially been awarded? Is Indonesia holding out for more concessions?

That would seem unlikely. The project seems to be China’s. Whether it will a “successful” from a conventional commercial perspective is unknowable. But in terms of China’s economic diplomacy, it is certainly a deeply meaningful and significant advance. While for Japan, it is an occasion for deep rethinking of policies and strategies in Asia.


Japan's Rail Project Loss To China: Why It Matters For Abe's Economic Diplomacy And For China's
Thanks for tagging.
It seems I miss a lot of tagging during my trip.

China's HSRs are built in all weather conditions, from extreme coldness(trans-Qilian Mountains bridges and tunnels 3-4km above the sea level), typhoon(HSRs in Hainan Island and costal HSRs of mainland), to sandstorm(Lanzhou-Xinjiang HSR).

The new standardised CRH350 is designed for such purposes.

北京园博园.jpeg
 
.
There is no provision for any regulator. This means this company can charge anything from consumers. In every country there is regulator for utilities. Thats why I say sovereignty is lost.


Shows your frustration. This year India is getting highest FDI.


Air travel is better than HSR. We do not want HSR. We will develop our aviation sector.

Not really... I simply choose not to hide behind the facade known as The Times of India newspaper which assures us that India is taking over world, when in reality, it's a real toilet dump there where no foreigners want to go, apart from the few who insist on being raped...
 
.
Not really... I simply choose not to hide behind the facade known as The Times of India newspaper which assures us that India is taking over world, when in reality, it's a real toilet dump there where no foreigners want to go, apart from the few who insist on being raped...
I don't think rational Chinese and Japanese will choose flight over high-speed train from Beijing to Shanghai or Tokyo to Osaka, especially for normal people who can only afford economy class which is much worse than second class of bullet trains concerning comfortability, punctuality, safety and availability. More importantly, I don't think a high-speed railway is only for people in Beijing, Shanghai, Tokyo or Osaka, but for all the people along this corridor( you cannot build airports every 30-50km). The ridership of Chinese high speed railway has already surpassed airplane years ago. It is not just a better transport for long-distance journey like Beijing to Shanghai(1300km), but also for intercity trips like from my hometown Wuhan to the second largest city Yichang of my province(60-80daily, 300km).

Pls correct me, I remember there were some feasibility studies when Modi was only the governor of Gujarat.
 
.
Not really... I simply choose not to hide behind the facade known as The Times of India newspaper which assures us that India is taking over world, when in reality, it's a real toilet dump there where no foreigners want to go, apart from the few who insist on being raped...

Well said.

Go to India at your own risk. Period. Besides lots of horrendous rape news from that filthy country recently.

Thanks for tagging.
It seems I miss a lot of tagging during my trip.

China's HSRs are built in all weather conditions, from extreme coldness(trans-Qilian Mountains bridges and tunnels 3-4km above the sea level), typhoon(HSRs in Hainan Island and costal HSRs of mainland), to sandstorm(Lanzhou-Xinjiang HSR).

The new standardised CRH350 is designed for such purposes.

View attachment 265883

Thank you for the video. That was a visual feat !
 
.
Very well written.

The main reason of Indonesia choosing Chinese firm is more of the localization and providing techs and jobs than the financing method. It seems guaranteed that the project will be profitable considering that in most part of its Chinese operation region is no better than Java. So government endorsement is not an issue. Taiwan's example is not necessary a good proof due to its silly overpriced cost involving serious corruption of former leader Lee Tenghui and his officials and cronies.
 
.

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom