Japan’s fear of China

[FairAndUnbiased]

To be fair though, I think if the ROC had managed to stay in power, ROC China would be in no way comparable to India. I think the ROC would've made much better economic progress than the PRC during the 50s to the 70s. Today, China would undoubtedly already be the world's largest economy and would probably have a much higher per capita GDP because it was integrated into global trade much earlier. The West would probably be inundated by Chinese pop culture and Westerners would be cooing about taking a trip to Shanghai like they talk about going to Tokyo or Singapore. But at the same time, China would probably be subordinate to Western powers and be a follower and not a leader. It's innovation would likely have gotten handicapped by the US somehow as well like what the Plaza Accords did to Japan back in the 80s and Chinese women would be nowhere as powerful and liberated as they are now. China would be far more confined by traditional hierarchies as well.

What the PRC is doing now is setting new ground and testing new systems which the world has never seen before. It is among the most, if not the most, dynamic and innovative society today and all this in the face of unmitigated sabotage, hostility and hatred from the West. Framing things this way will probably make most Westerners think of you as some kind of lunatic, when in fact, it is a reflection of actual facts. The same Westerners think 90s era Japan who still uses fax as a major method of communication is somehow more advanced than cashless China today who is the only peer rival to Silicon Valley.

I disagree and here's why: in 1920's KMT was already integrated into global trade and people were getting poorer, not richer. Previous performance is correlated to future performance.

But let's not look at the past. Let's say we are transported back to 1949 and CPC didn't exist. What do we see in the ROC?

1. Economic statistics: 80% illiterate population. Average life expectancy 36. Steel production per year: 158,000 tons (lower than even during WW2 and some of the lowest in the world). Total national electricity generation per year: 1.85 GW (for comparison, a single power plant in the US produced 1 GW in 1967, see pg 32).

2. Internal politics: An absolute military dictator who would later put his son (Chiang Ching Kuo) in office like the Kims in North Korea, and who has zero motivation to reform because he already won against his domestic ideological opposition. However he did not win against domestic nonideological opposition such as warlords and gangs, meaning that the government still lacks the stability to conduct reforms.

3. International politics: The US hated Chiang. They were planning on making Japan their #1 Asian ally long before the CPC took over because Chiang had already stolen $750 million from them. Xinjiang already declared independence backed by the Soviets. Mongolia declared independence long ago but were agitating for Inner Mongolia. Tibet would've never been recovered and could've been absorbed by India. The Soviets would've been overtly hostile. How many weapons you think Chiang would need to import from the US to suppress his internal rivals like armed warlords and gangs on one hand and Soviet Xinjiang, Soviet Greater Mongolia, Indian Tibet, etc on the other? And yes, that'd be import, not made.

So no... every indicator was that the ROC was on its way to becoming either a military dictatorship like North Korea (best case scenario) or balkanizing into warlord states (worst case scenario).

 

[xyxmt]

Guilty hearts feel scared of crime committed

 

[MultaniGuy]

@Topic

Japan is a puppet state of USA. Therefore USA will come to protect Japan.

 

[tower9]

I disagree and here's why: in 1920's KMT was already integrated into global trade and people were getting poorer, not richer. Previous performance is correlated to future performance.

But let's not look at the past. Let's say we are transported back to 1949 and CPC didn't exist. What do we see in the ROC?

1. Economic statistics: 80% illiterate population. Average life expectancy 36. Steel production per year: 158,000 tons (lower than even during WW2 and some of the lowest in the world). Total national electricity generation per year: 1.85 GW (for comparison, a single power plant in the US produced 1 GW in 1967, see pg 32).

2. Internal politics: An absolute military dictator who would later put his son (Chiang Ching Kuo) in office like the Kims in North Korea, and who has zero motivation to reform because he already won against his domestic ideological opposition. However he did not win against domestic nonideological opposition such as warlords and gangs, meaning that the government still lacks the stability to conduct reforms.

3. International politics: The US hated Chiang. They were planning on making Japan their #1 Asian ally long before the CPC took over because Chiang had already stolen $750 million from them. Xinjiang already declared independence backed by the Soviets. Mongolia declared independence long ago but were agitating for Inner Mongolia. Tibet would've never been recovered and could've been absorbed by India. The Soviets would've been overtly hostile. How many weapons you think Chiang would need to import from the US to suppress his internal rivals like armed warlords and gangs on one hand and Soviet Xinjiang, Soviet Greater Mongolia, Indian Tibet, etc on the other? And yes, that'd be import, not made.

So no... every indicator was that the ROC was on its way to becoming either a military dictatorship like North Korea (best case scenario) or balkanizing into warlord states (worst case scenario).

I don't really agree with this doomsday scenario but certainly my prediction would've been predicated on CKS actually being stable enough to hold the country together. In the 20s however, the KMT controlled areas particularly in the cities started to experience rapid modernization however this was disrupted by the Japanese invasion.

Guilty hearts feel scared of crime committed

This is Japan, living in paranoia and fear about old ghosts.

In fact, I would venture to say that it's not just Japan but all of the old Western imperialist powers, living in fear of China's rise. A country they used to abuse. It's understandable though. Imagine you used to torture and abuse a person who was weak and sick, but then today he is healthy and becoming a powerful bodybuilder and UFC fighter, you would be terrified to ever look him in the eyes ever again.

This is the underlying psychology of why Japan and the West is so afraid of China's rise.

 

[kankan326]

Undoubtedly, those are certainly features of his regime that were disastrous. On the whole though, the cost of having your country ravaged by imperialist forces are far greater. Look how much China had fallen during the period of Western imperialism? From a great empire to a rump state with starving citizens getting cannibalized by Japan and the West. It is really amazing how much Western depictions of Chinese history tend to just leave out this significant part of China's modern history. It is also the reason why China is so forthright in insisting on its sovereignty when it comes to its territorial rights in Taiwan, the South China Sea, Tibet or Xinjiang. If you do not understand what China has gone through in terms of being degraded by Western and Japanese imperialism, you really can't understand why China insists so much on its sovereignty and means it. It is not the will of the CCP, but the will of the Chinese people.

Secondly, in addition to establishing China's sovereignty and independence, the Mao era also saw a large scale revolution of Chinese culture. Of course, some of it was extreme and this caused great damage, primarily during the Cultural Revolution. But in many ways, these social revolutions also gave Chinese society the power to reinvent itself in ways that makes it so competitive today. Women became equals to Men for the first time in history, and this is NOT the case in traditional Asian countries like Japan, S. Korea or Taiwan. This is why Chinese women have a huge share as leaders in Chinese businesses and why China has 2/3rds of the world's female billionaires. Chinese women are far more empowered and stronger than even the West for instance. Facts like this you would never know from watching the garbage and lies fed to you by the Western media.

Secondly, Chinese society is much more egalitarian and this is part of the reason why China's innovation industry today is far more dynamic than most other countries. Japan and S. Korea by contrast have very rigid Confucian like hierarchies and this has stifled dynamism. Getting rid of many of these feudal and archaic hierarchies have allowed Chinese entrepreneurialism this incredible energy that is rarely found anywhere else in the world.

Thirdly, China is able to face the West as an equal due to its sovereignty. Japan and S. Korea are vassals, mere pets, of the West. That is why they are celebrated, while you are taught to hate China.

Well said. Mao virtually made a surgery to reshape nation's spirit. Which gives China a huge dividend till today. Changing social structure is not easy task. The interest class would resist at their best( India is an example of failed social revolution). Tough measures must be used. The westerners only emphasize on the blood shedding part.

Mao did make mistakes. But to his defence: 1,Soviet Union was a successful model to follow back to Mao's time. Especially for backward countries. All the drawbacks of Soviet Union model were shadowed by its glorious achievements. So don't use God's perspective to criticize Mao. 2, Mao is loyal communist. He believes only communism can save China. And he did things as what Karl Marx told people to do. He should not take all responsibilities for his faults. Again the communism seemed a right path based on all things happened in China and outside world till then. The Greek guy as a devout religion believer should at least show some respect to Mao at this point. 3, The victims number of Mao age is remarkably exaggerated. We Chinese know what happened. For me, none of my relatives died because of Mao's policies.

 

[kankan326]

To be fair though, I think if the ROC had managed to stay in power, ROC China would be in no way comparable to India. I think the ROC would've made much better economic progress than the PRC during the 50s to the 70s. Today, China would undoubtedly already be the world's largest economy and would probably have a much higher per capita GDP because it was integrated into global trade much earlier. The West would probably be inundated by Chinese pop culture and Westerners would be cooing about taking a trip to Shanghai like they talk about going to Tokyo or Singapore.

You don't know much about the corrupt KMT. KMT was the representor of compradors. China was comprador capitalism under KMT's rule. What is comprador capitalism? It means the country only serves few compradors' interest. Todays' Ukraine is an example.

I give you an example to explain how dark it is. After 10 year's KMT rule, China's steel output was even fewer than Qing dynasty. How could that happen? Because KMT government found import tariff was more profitable than the tax from domestic steel factories. They chose the quick money by importing more steel instead of promoting national industries. KMT totally wasted 10 years development time before Japan's invasion.

KMT was not only incompetent in everything, but also had no will to improve the country. It brought nothing but humiliations to China. China has no hope if KMT was not defeated by CCP.

 

[Han-Tang]

I just have one word for those who want to convince China to be kind to Japan: IF you didn't experience other people's suffering, do not convince him to be kind.
and we know our history better than you.
and you should check the Japanese guy's comment in this thread, that's your so-called peace and honest Japanese.

 

[tower9]

I just have one word for those who want to convince China to be kind to Japan: IF you didn't experience other people's suffering, do not convince him to be kind.
and we know our history better than you.
and you should check the Japanese guy's comment in this thread, that's your so-called peace and honest Japanese.

True. His words are proof that China owes Japan no mercy.

 

[Han-Tang]

Yea,it's self defeating,that's why US is the world's prominent power,with undisputed softpower,military and economic might,and things will remain the same unless China remakes itself as a nation more deserving of a state capable of underpinning the US ,with rectitude and capabilities. China would gladly suck US & UK toes,and undergo worship of the west but not bear to even take the smallest of slight from a nation they once felt were lower then them in the pecking order,their poor arrogance was shattered,and they still feel vitriol about that. Better worship anglo-white than acknowledge the prominence of so called yellow folk across the straight. No wonder the western tribe cut up China .

come on，you misplace your Indian‘s feelings. “US is the world's prominent power”、“suck US & UK toes”、“a state capable of underpinning the US”、“poor arrogance”、“worship anglo-white”, LOL， that's too much Indian，dude.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

I just have one word for those who want to convince China to be kind to Japan: IF you didn't experience other people's suffering, do not convince him to be kind.
and we know our history better than you.
and you should check the Japanese guy's comment in this thread, that's your so-called peace and honest Japanese.

I disagree somewhat. We can indeed be magnanimous to Japanese - but from a position of absolute strength.

They need to know that it is not because of weakness that we do not pursue old debts - it is because of mercy.

And they will be reminded of that with firm warnings time to time, and they will be grateful that we are keeping them on the righteous path.

 

[vostok]

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not punishment enough?

It is American payback for Pearl Harbor, not Chinese one for millions of innocent civil people.

 

[Paul2]

Without Japan liberating asian nations one by one,the west might have still kept their colonies. And the consequence of any longer western colonization in Asia might have been much dire,for all asian nation. Japan invaded manchuria ,that kept the soviet locked out of getting a strangle hold of Manchuria and from accessing a pivot to penetrate in Japan,Korea & China.That was most vital and positive for China itself in the grand scheme.

Japan Tojo said Asia for Asians, and and then raped half of Asia.

Japs did kick Europeans out of Asia for once, but...

 

[Suika]

So much 3rd grade level red book propaganda.

 

[MH.Yang]

Japan hate what they define as " religious lunatics" more than China or Russia. They even hate Sikh immigrants because they apparently appear like an eyesore with their traditional head wear ,religious practice and their appearence.They supervise each and every mosque,the very few that there's in japan and routinely interrogate the attendees just saying.

1. Japan is actually a colony of the USA, which controls Japan's politics and diplomacy.
2. In 1985, the USA forced Japan to sign the <Plaza Accord>, which destroyed Japan's economy and made it lose the possibility of challenging the status of the USA.
3. Now the Japanese want Japan to become a normal country, so they want China and the USA to weaken at the same time. Because both countries disagree it.
4. The Japanese want war between China and the USA, while Japan remains neutral. The Japanese hope that the battlefield is best in Korea or Taiwan, not the Diaoyu Islands. Because that Japan will have reason to refuse to participate directly in the war, just like the Korean War.
5. Americans do not believe in the Japanese. The USA does not allow Japan to have nuclear weapons, unlike Israel.
6. The USA attacked Japan with nuclear weapons, and the Japanese have never forgotten it, because East Asians never forget history.
7. The USA understands the Japanese plan. Biden is likely to announce that "the USA will not be the first to use nuclear weapons". This means that Japan can become a battlefield for conventional weapons. Obviously, the USA also wants Japan and China to weaken at the same time. Although Japan has always opposed nuclear weapons, they will certainly oppose the USA not being the first to use nuclear weapons.
8. If Japan's national normalization, the USA will not be able to prevent Japan from joining the economic integration of Northeast Asia.
Finally, the huge economic ties will bring China, Japan and Russia together. Japan will educate its citizens about the history of Japan being bombed by the USA with nuclear bombs and colonized by the USA, and blame the USA for all social problems. Like the propaganda about the Soviet Union in Eastern Europe.


We understand the benefits of helping Japan achieve normalization, but it also has many problems:
1, Japan is underestimated. It still has great strength. Helping it normalize now is likely to affect China's influence in East Asia.
2, China needs some vouch for help Japan become independent, that is to complete the economic integration of Northeast Asia. However, when Japanese politicians proposed Koizumi's conception, East Asia's EPA and Northeast Asia community,etc. they were betrayed by Pro American forces in Japan. In Abe's first term, Hatoyama and others stepped down. So maybe Japan doesn't need China to help them become independent.

 

[MH.Yang]

Are you actually comparing the Kuomingtang to Mao's brutal regime and tyranny? To the imposition of atheism and the destruction of tradition? Cultural Revolution? The Great Leap Forward? Wow what a great leader. He caused the death of millions to make China a relatively strong country by the '70s. Thank you comrade Mao! We may not have rice for the winter, because you had the idea to tell everyone to produce steel,but at least we have socialism and your great ideas written down on a little red book.

ROC began to rule China in 1912, when China's population was 400 million. In 1938, before the outbreak of the Anti Japanese War, China still had 400 million people. 26 years of zero population growth. Do you know why? Because of the internal factional civil war of ROC and the corruption and exploitation of ROC in China. Yunnan Province collected taxes 42 years in advance. A famine in Henan starved 12 million people, but KMT general Tang Enbo still robbed the refugees of food. KMT abused currency and devalued it by 5 million times. Why did the CCP you mentioned get the support of the people, win the strong with the weak and defeat KMT?


In 1949, PRC was founded with a population of 400 million. 28 years later, in 1977, the PRC had a population of 800 million. During this period, the PRC also experienced wars with the United States, the Soviet Union, France and India. And the famine of 1958-1960 you mentioned.


A Greek who knows nothing about China and has only seen foxTV thinks that more than a billion Chinese are fools and Chinese don't know which party is better?