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Jang Group Editor-in-Chief Shakilur Rahman arrested by NAB

As for NAB, I know of honest people who attempted to make changes to curb corruption who ended up being harassed, detained and questioned by NAB. I know their sleazy methods and what level of morality and legal legitimacy and process this organisation follows.


To be honest a group of folks can never achieve nothing. It's like saying this DC is exceptional, could be but there's a probability that out of 99.99% men in civil service may be he had a functional Grey area however honesty is also subjective .


No doubt there are good people but they can be replaced by bad ones in no time but the system remains in effect and is difficult to change. You know those notorious bargainings coming into play even if the change stands for public good.


If you knew what I’ve heard directly from people, you would agree with my judgement of them. They are a political tool for protecting entrenched power (corrupt or otherwise), they are probably now also being used to control the media.


I partially agree with you but same could be referred to the controllable anti corruption besides there's a radical difference between the composition and function of both. One is appointed by the political elite and directly answers to that same people, nab's hierarchy is also appointed by the electables but then it turned into a completely independent org like judiciary per law with a modest inclination to the separation of power doctrine. There conduct may be right or wrong but the Elite has to maintain a civilized facade of letting it go Scott free . Poor losers are carrying a democratic tradition of the Blondes established by a so called military dictator, kuch keh b nahi sakty, chup reh b nahi sakty


Now my assertion is that when babu run accountability orgs like anti corruption, FIA, fbr and a plethora of others constituted to accommodate osd's have been put up with for indulging in the same vices then why only defang nab? The answer is plain and simple, the powers to be don't got no control over it. They've inherited a dragon but have no idea how to tame and ride it. Moreover if an anti corruption summon sends chilling sensation down the spine of a common man or a ranker then there must be someone in place to return the favor to the csp's and and feudal politicians as well. Furthermore If I were to be the chief justice nab would have been enjoying a perpetual constitutional protection like the judiciary with no room available for meddling in its structure and functions . a Tit for tat!


P:S: mind you nab and the judiciary are the only barriers keeping the boots away from Islamabad and if you take these out of the equation then there's no guarantee that you and me won't be chanting "our Supreme leader is a great douchebag" after every breakfast.

@MastanKhan @fitpOsitive @Mangus Ortus Novem @Verve
 
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To be honest a group of folks can never achieve nothing. It's like saying this DC is exceptional, could be but there's a probability that out of 99.99% men in civil service may be he had a functional Grey area however honesty is also subjective .


No doubt there are good people but they can be replaced by bad ones in no time but the system remains in effect and is difficult to change. You know those notorious bargainings coming into play even if the change stands for public good.





I partially agree with you but same could be referred to the controllable anti corruption besides there's a radical difference between the composition and function of both. One is appointed by the political elite and directly answers to that same people, nab's hierarchy is also appointed by the electables but then it turned into a completely independent org like judiciary per law with a modest inclination to the separation of power doctrine. There conduct may be right or wrong but the Elite has to maintain a civilized facade of letting it go Scott free . Poor losers are carrying a democratic tradition of the Blondes established by a so called military dictator, kuch keh b nahi sakty, chup reh b nahi sakty


Now my assertion is that when babu run accountability orgs like anti corruption, FIA, fbr and a plethora of others constituted to accommodate osd's have been put up with for indulging in the same vices then why only defang nab? The answer is plain and simple, the powers to be don't got no control over it. They've inherited a dragon but have no idea how to tame and ride it. Moreover if an anti corruption summon sends chilling sensation down the spine of a common man or a ranker then there must be someone in place to return the favor to the csp's and and feudal politicians as well. Furthermore If I were to be the chief justice nab would have been enjoying a perpetual constitutional protection like the judiciary with no room available for meddling in its structure and functions . a Tit for tat!


P:S: mind you nab and the judiciary are the only barriers keeping the boots away from Islamabad and if you take it out of the equation then there's no guarantee that you and me won't be chanting "our Supreme leader is a great douchebag" after every breakfast.

@MastanKhan @fitpOsitive @Mangus Ortus Novem
Every effective dictative power learns lessons. Army has also learned its lessons. Previously, army was coming out of cantt, because at some places there were well capable bureaucrats who were hindering some actions like Bahria town or Defense housing or Fouji foundation.
Now, foj has having its share without any hinderence.
But, it's not just foj, it's everyone who has some power, and some capabilities in this country.
 
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To be honest a group of folks can never achieve nothing. It's like saying this DC is exceptional, could be but there's a probability that out of 99.99% men in civil service may be he had a functional Grey area however honesty is also subjective .


No doubt there are good people but they can be replaced by bad ones in no time but the system remains in effect and is difficult to change. You know those notorious bargainings coming into play even if the change stands for public good.

I partially agree with your post, but only the philosophical element. Not the realities of NAB as I know them, albeit from second hand sources. This grey area we’re talking about in my estimation is perhaps a little too grey for even the grey elements we see normally in Pakistani institutions and society.

And I believe that NAB’s true functioning can legitimately be taken over by FBR and some other financial crimes bureau like SECP. NAB as it currently is, is a tool for political flexing. In most other countries, we’d see this as gross violation of democracy, not just another grey area to be ignored, or incrementally improved.

I partially agree with you but same could be referred to the controllable anti corruption besides there's a radical difference between the composition and function of both. One is appointed by the political elite and directly answers to that same people, nab's hierarchy is also appointed by the electables but then it turned into a completely independent org like judiciary per law with a modest inclination to the separation of power doctrine. There conduct may be right or wrong but the Elite has to maintain a civilized facade of letting it go Scott free . Poor losers are carrying a democratic tradition of the Blondes established by a so called military dictator, kuch keh b nahi sakty, chup reh b nahi sakty

Now my assertion is that when babu run accountability orgs like anti corruption, FIA, fbr and a plethora of others constituted to accommodate osd's have been put up with for indulging in the same vices then why only defang nab?

I hear what your saying but I don’t think you fully understand my objection to NAB in particular. It’s not that they aren’t capable of good, or that other departments are infallible.

When a mafia roams town at the behest of whoever is boss, sure, once they racketeer, profiteer, break some limbs, and demand protection money. They might also provide security and other neighbourhood services. They might even do some honest to God work once in a while. But they were made with other intentions by an illegitimate authority, and their conduct is selective.

In effect, NAB are not operating to curb corruption, but to crackdown on those who are deemed political undesirables. It’s almost inconsequential that they’re an accountability bureau, they may as well operate as goons with sticks in order to achieve the intended illegitimate goal.

Furthermore, the cases they are building right now include people who’ve subsequently been discharged as no case could be built. Hence we have a bureau, that selectively targets based on political influence (violation of both integrity of NAB and democratic freedoms), but it then wastes also it’s own resources punishing or pressuring people who it has no business going after (violation of the individual’s rights AND also a violation of its own stated goals and objectives as an accountability bureau).

Point is, of all the institutions in Pakistan. This is one of the worst.

And unlike others such as FBR etc. They can and should be improved and cleaned. They are necessary for the state. NAB is not.

FBR equivalent here in the UK is HMRC and in the US it’s the IRS, SBP = BoE = Federal reserve, SECP (PK) = FCA = SEC. I can’t think of an equivalent for NAB though, this would at most be an apolitical, agenda free sub department of >one of the above. Please excuse the acronym bombardment, just trying to make a point.

The answer is plain and simple, the powers to be don't got no control over it. They've inherited a dragon but have no idea how to tame and ride it. Moreover if an anti corruption summon sends chilling sensation down the spine of a common man or a ranker then there must be someone in place to return the favor to the csp's and and feudal politicians as well. Furthermore If I were to be the chief justice nab would have been enjoying a perpetual constitutional protection like the judiciary with no room available for meddling in its structure and functions . a Tit for tat!

I disagree with your assessment here. If you knew the stories I know for fact, you would be utterly disgusted by nab, believe me.

Stories of honest people from modest backgrounds who ruffled a few feathers of the truly corrupt people who ironically and paradoxically, NAB serves instead of challenges. They detain you, they harass, ask for years worth of financial records and absurdity, they are hoping to pin something on you, on the basis of no-counter evidence. Imagine this scenario; you were detained, assumed/asserted to be corrupt, and asked to produce last 5 years worth of bills, pay slips, expenditure, gas bills, school fees etc. They will operate their assumption of your guilt against habeas corpus and without ANY EVIDENCE. And if you failed to produce any of this, they’d hope to use this against you.

Some lucky individuals went through this harassment and produced everything. They were then given a court date without any case or explanation. Luckily our courts threw out the cases, being baseless and absurd.

But the corrupt scoundrel who put NAB to going after them, he got what he wanted. They were forced out of their organisations and corruption was allowed to go unchallenged.

This is what NAB does. I don’t know Shahid Khaqan Abbasi personally, but his story absolutely echoes the same that I have heard from people. In custody they treat people awfully, and some have died in their custody too.

Apologies for any spelling or grammar issues, I typed this up on mobile device.
 
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This is what NAB does. I don’t know Shahid Khaqan Abbasi personally, but his story absolutely echoes the same that I have heard from people. In custody they treat people awfully, and some have died in their custody too.

Cctv cameras with audio option is the answer to stop the irresistability of raw power. Availability of funds is no problem as we just spent 8 crores to renovate the csp cabins of Karachi police alone.

They detain you, they harass, ask for years worth of financial records and absurdity, they are hoping to pin something on you, on the basis of no-counter evidence. Imagine this scenario; you were detained, assumed/asserted to be corrupt, and asked to produce last 5 years worth of bills, pay slips, expenditure, gas bills, school fees etc. They will operate their assumption of your guilt against habeas corpus and without ANY EVIDENCE. And if you failed to produce any of this, they’d hope to use this against you.

Objection on Rules of business can't warrant the closure of any department itself . Coz if that was the case police and many other services of Pakistan would have been shut down for the horrendous transgressions against the common man. I agree that they must have a warrant to arrest anyone , may be the warrant could be obtained the same day the reference got filed , and a definite time span of detention after that the detainee be set free to face the trail. the option of filing bail during detention is already in place.
 
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Cctv cameras with audio option is the answer to stop the irresistability of raw power. Availability of funds is no problem as we just spent 8 crores to renovate the csp cabins of Karachi police alone.

You think where they abuse power and come up with false charges, detain and harass people that they will install CCTV cameras out of the kindness of their hearts? This is naive imo, tantamount to saying the solution to mafia mistreating kidnapped individuals is getting them to place CCTV in their cells. NAB needs accountability or removal, all these other measures, though I can see your point are not that relevant.

Objection on Rules of business can't warrant the closure of any department itself . Coz if that was the case police and many other services of Pakistan would have been shut down for the horrendous transgressions against the common man. I agree that they must have a warrant to arrest anyone , may be the warrant could be obtained the same day the reference got filed , and a definite time span of detention after that the detainee be set free to face the trail. the option of filing bail during detention is already in place.

NAB is not an ordinary department, and not a necessary one either. We had police before 1999, we did not have NAB before then. Their duties (claimed duties) should already be under the remit of the other departments we've named. NAB was created by a dictator and has since been used by those in power to further entrench themselves and to target people politically. So I disagree here with the premise and outcome of your argument. It's my opinion that NAB at the bare minimum needs deep reform and accountability, if not shut down for good.
 
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You think where they abuse power and come up with false charges, detain and harass people that they will install CCTV cameras out of the kindness of their hearts? This is naive imo, tantamount to saying the solution to mafia mistreating kidnapped individuals is getting them to place CCTV in their cells. NAB needs accountability or removal, all these other measures, though I can see your point are not that relevant.



NAB is not an ordinary department, and not a necessary one either. We had police before 1999, we did not have NAB before then. Their duties (claimed duties) should already be under the remit of the other departments we've named. NAB was created by a dictator and has since been used by those in power to further entrench themselves and to target people politically. So I disagree here with the premise and outcome of your argument. It's my opinion that NAB at the bare minimum needs deep reform and accountability, if not shut down for good.


Let's put this administrative discourse aside for a moment. Why iam having a gut feel that either you or anyone near and dear to you is a stake holder in the old guard?


You know sir all I have to do is to request my father and he in turn could literally arm twist my cousins into giving me lucrative official favors. I mean I should be the one screaming at the top of my lungs to bad mouth NAB as I also heard them complaining about the high handedness of a certain org. No deputations, no control, no nothing. What do our bureaucracy fear of? That someone is keeping their ridiculous colonial prestige, fame and power in check and they can't do nothing about it?


As for the police service of Pakistan they didn't deliver in the past and won't deliver in the future. You want me to paste links of how many kids and women they've brutalized over the years? In all honesty all they do is to ape Pakistan administrative service. Which is a far greater evil than the police service of Pakistan.


1- Do they have any experience in investigating corporate crimes?

No! but just appoint us in FIA bypassing the expert service men busting their balls off for decades in that agency .


2-Do they have any experience in motor policing?

no! But just also reserve high offices There too.


3- Do they have any experience in intelligence field?

No but just make one of our own a head of i. B.


4-Do they got any experience in railways policing?

No! But just make one of us I. G in there as some o.s.d would feel bore and bad about sitting in an office only drinking tea from public exchequer.


5-Do they have any experience in jail management other than those directly employed and trained for doing the job?

No! But plz let us have this one under our "supervision" too .


6-are they more capable than professionals working in NADRA?

NO! but gib this one too nice and easy.


And if someone simply asks why?

"how come the PAS guys can be made jack of all trades while they don't know shutt about any department other than discharging clerical work and we not?"



Now how about we separate these functions into many independent govt entities to catalyze the progress. Where each institute's guys are performing a particular role for the rest of their life, for which they've applied for and for which they've been trained for! But would the csp's be ready to let go the raw power they are enjoying at the moment? Certainly not! They'd retain it any cost and make the rankers life hell on earth as they are the ones carrying that all power for all matters in their name.



There's no service left out here in this country let alone civility. The state is being held hostage by mafias with medicore mental capacity, who think their say in the official assignments is a matter of inevitability.

@fitpOsitive @Mangus Ortus Novem @Verve
 
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Let's put this administrative discourse aside for a moment. Why iam having a gut feel that either you or anyone near and dear to you is a stake holder in the old guard?


You know sir all I have to do is to request my father and he in turn could literally arm twist my cousins into giving me lucrative official favors. I mean I should be the one screaming at the top of my lungs to bad mouth NAB as I also heard them complaining about the high handedness of a certain org. No deputations, no control, no nothing. What do our bureaucracy fear of? That someone is keeping their ridiculous colonial prestige, fame and power in check and they can't do nothing about it?


As for the police service of Pakistan they didn't deliver in the past and won't deliver in the future. You want me to paste links of how many kids and women they've brutalized over the years? In all honesty all they do is to ape Pakistan administrative service. Which is a far greater evil than the police service of Pakistan.


1- Do they have any experience in investigating corporate crimes?

No! but just appoint us in FIA bypassing the expert service men busting their balls off for decades in that agency .


2-Do they have any experience in motor policing?

no! But just also reserve high offices There too.


3- Do they have any experience in intelligence field?

No but just make one of our own a head of i. B.


4-Do they got any experience in railways policing?

No! But just make one of us I. G in there as some o.s.d would feel bore and bad about sitting in an office only drinking tea from public exchequer.


5-Do they have any experience in jail management other than those directly employed and trained for doing the job?

No! But plz let us have this one under our "supervision" too .


6-are they more capable than professionals working in NADRA?

NO! but gib this one too nice and easy.


And if someone simply asks why?

"how come the PAS guys can be made jack of all trades while they don't know shutt about any department other than discharging clerical work and we not?"



Now how about we separate these functions into many independent govt entities to catalyze the progress. Where each institute's guys are performing a particular role for the rest of their life, for which they've applied for and for which they've been trained for! But would the csp's be ready to let go the raw power they are enjoying at the moment? Certainly not! They'd retain it any cost and make the rankers life hell on earth as they are the ones carrying that all power for all matters in their name.



There's no service left out here in this country let alone civility. The state is being held hostage by mafias with medicore mental capacity, who think their say in the official assignments is a matter of inevitability.

@fitpOsitive @Mangus Ortus Novem @Verve


The main reason, why govt officers no longer acting as servants of nations, rather members of a gang, because bureaucratic immunities are gone. If a bureaucrat wants to survive(or flourish) all he has to do is to obey orders by some politicians and that's it. And that's the reason why bureaucrats are no longer serving their nation.
I can present some solutions for that. That's the reason why the work FIA should do, now ISI is doing. ISI had very limited role initially, but as every govt broken the teeth of bureaucracy, this primarily military organization took over the affairs of even civilian intelligence agency. Btw, who knows FIA now.

1) Structure and protection laws for bureaucracy should be restored to Pre-Ayub Khan era.
2) Police should be under federal govt, not under provincial govt. IB + Police + special branch should be one department.
3) Education departments should be taken under federal govt.
4) There should no way the Army can come to power. Amendement in constitution is required. Under emergency, a group will take over the country, and will arrange the elections, asap. That group will be from Judiciary + Bureaucracy.
But major thing is how we handle things on day to day basis.
@Jungibaaz
 
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Structure and protection laws for bureaucracy should be restored to Pre-Ayub Khan era.

Only if Pakistan still was a colony of her majesty, not for free men!

Police should be under federal govt, not under provincial govt. IB + Police + special branch should be one department.

Ridiculous Concentration of power matlab Bayra ghark!

Education departments should be taken under federal govt.

:tup:
There should no way the Army can come to power. Amendement in constitution is required. Under emergency, a group will take over the country, and will arrange the elections, asap. That group will be from Judiciary + Bureaucracy.

Impractical. Only the people could stoo such coup. Bhutto did try to raise a force on the lines of what papa doc experimented
 
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Only if Pakistan still was a colony of her majesty, not for free men!

Ridiculous Concentration of power matlab Bayra ghark!
:tup:

Impractical. Only the people could stoo such coup. Bhutto did try to raise a force on the lines of what papa doc experimented

Daikho bhai , power kisi k pass tu rahygi, behtar hoga keh kam k logon k hathon mian rahy. Power jab awam k hathon main aati hai tu mob lynching hoti hai.

Power jitni ziada hosaky, politicians k hathon se nikalni hai. Yeh log qabil nahi hain, trust me on that.
 
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Daikho bhai , power kisi k pass tu rahygi, behtar hoga keh kam k logon k hathon mian rahy. Power jab awam k hathon main aati hai tu mob lynching hoti hai.

Power jitni ziada hosaky, politicians k hathon se nikalni hai. Yeh log qabil nahi hain, trust me on that.

Jis ka Kam us ko saajhy.

Govt job profile select kro, selection k bad taraining lo, vhi Kam kro or retire ho jao. Ya phr specific qualification hasil kro, vacancies ATI hai to apply kro, select ho gy to resign kr k dosri job kro. period lsaari civilized duniya ka yehi rivaaj hai.


Itna paysa nahi hai state k pass shehzada ab police sy FIA m Jana chahta hai to croro ropay us ko Kam sikhany m lga do laikin shehzada to phr shehzada hai FIA sy dil bhr gia ab mjhy nadra m lgao, taraining k paysay phr gormint dy.
 
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Now get that gay scum of Dawn, Hameed Haroon on the charges of rape, Harvey Weinstein style.

TbH this is the best time to strike, when the foreign overlords of these internal leeches are overawed by Corona virus.
 
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Let's put this administrative discourse aside for a moment. Why iam having a gut feel that either you or anyone near and dear to you is a stake holder in the old guard?

I respect the fact that you have managed to be civil in this debate, more than I have seen from other members lately. As for the question, I believe it isn’t relevant to whether my arguments hold any weight or not. I usually wouldn’t answer, but since we’re having a civil discussion, I’ll let you know...

I have no personal, familial, financial or other business connection to anyone in the old guard. I live and work in London, my family back home is middle class, with no connections whatsoever.

But I do now sympathise with some people you might say are in the old guard. They are broadly a bunch of useless and incompetent politicians, they are too incompetent to run their own parties let alone the country... but, I sympathise with their political beliefs. Especially having learnt more about the side of our history that Pakistanis aren’t taught, I am against military involvement in politics, against dictators and their stooges. And I am vehemently pro-democracy.

I hope this disclosure is satisfactory for our discussion. I refrain from divulging any detailed personal info on the forum. You can PM me if you are still having doubts.:-)

You know sir all I have to do is to request my father and he in turn could literally arm twist my cousins into giving me lucrative official favors. I mean I should be the one screaming at the top of my lungs to bad mouth NAB as I also heard them complaining about the high handedness of a certain org. No deputations, no control, no nothing. What do our bureaucracy fear of? That someone is keeping their ridiculous colonial prestige, fame and power in check and they can't do nothing about it?

I hear what you’re saying, but you would fully understand and concur with me if any one of your contacts or yourself experienced what I have been told from various people regarding NAB.

You have to experience it, second hand from someone you know, in order to believe it.

Should the day come where someone who is in your contacts goes through this, I think you will fully understand why myself and plenty of prominent old guard politicians, as you have called them, speak so critically of NAB.


1- Do they have any experience in investigating corporate crimes?

No! but just appoint us in FIA bypassing the expert service men busting their balls off for decades in that agency .


2-Do they have any experience in motor policing?

no! But just also reserve high offices There too.


3- Do they have any experience in intelligence field?

No but just make one of our own a head of i. B.


4-Do they got any experience in railways policing?

No! But just make one of us I. G in there as some o.s.d would feel bore and bad about sitting in an office only drinking tea from public exchequer.


5-Do they have any experience in jail management other than those directly employed and trained for doing the job?

No! But plz let us have this one under our "supervision" too .


6-are they more capable than professionals working in NADRA?

NO! but gib this one too nice and easy.


And if someone simply asks why?

"how come the PAS guys can be made jack of all trades while they don't know shutt about any department other than discharging clerical work and we not?"



Now how about we separate these functions into many independent govt entities to catalyze the progress. Where each institute's guys are performing a particular role for the rest of their life, for which they've applied for and for which they've been trained for! But would the csp's be ready to let go the raw power they are enjoying at the moment? Certainly not! They'd retain it any cost and make the rankers life hell on earth as they are the ones carrying that all power for all matters in their name.



There's no service left out here in this country let alone civility. The state is being held hostage by mafias with medicore mental capacity, who think their say in the official assignments is a matter of inevitability.
I get your argument for specialisation if departments, but I’ve already addressed this in the previous post. NAB was created in 1999, and it’s like is not really found in other nations whom we model government departments on. Recently we just gave SBP independent control of monetary policy, this is not unique to Pakistan, we’re following international examples, independent Fed, BoE, ECB etc. We model our securities and exchange commission on the SEC in America. And SECP already convicts and chases financial crimes in this country, something which NAB also claims remit over.

I would just summarise again that it’s an unnecessary institution made with the intention of clamping down on undesirables, and it is being used primarily for political victimisation. Any actual useful functions are coincidental and can easily be handled by other relevant departments as happens elsewhere in properly functioning democracies. This department is being used to violate our democracy.
 
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