J20 Shock to PLAAF

[ZeEa5KPul]

So far, the J-16 is the only aircraft integrated with the long-range air-to-air missile and has a much higher weapons load than the J-20. It is less expensive, easier to maintain, and better suited to multi-role operations. I don't think it is feasible to kill the J-16s.

I understand your point, but I still disagree. As important and capable as the J-16's are, the J-20's are far more important and capable. There should be no curtailment of J-20 production for any reason. You just saw what happened to aircraft of the J-16's generation when they went up against stealth fighters.

Maybe the J-16's can be outfitted with other engines, or engine-manufacturing capacity sharply increased with a supplemental budget, or engines imported from Russia. But what the J-20 needs, the J-20 should get.

 

[Brainsucker]

I understand your point, but I still disagree. As important and capable as the J-16's are, the J-20's are far more important and capable. There should be no curtailment of J-20 production for any reason. You just saw what happened to aircraft of the J-16's generation when they went up against stealth fighters.

Maybe the J-16's can be outfitted with other engines, or engine-manufacturing capacity sharply increased with a supplemental budget, or engines imported from Russia. But what the J-20 needs, the J-20 should get.

I disagree. J-16 and J-20 are both very important for the newest PLAAF air combat doctrine today. That's why they put J-20 and J-16 into the same air regiment. That's because J-20 and J-16 can share their radar information with the newest Chinese data link system. Like in the 2nd drill, J-20 and J-16 can work in tandem perfectly. J-20 seek information with it's stealth capability, while J-16 act as missiles truck that will execute the target.

But I also disagree with @siegecrossbow. It is not bad for J-16 and J-20 share the same engine. As China put them together in the same air regiment. It will make maintain easier for the technician team to maintain both aircraft. If WS-15 ready in the future, they can always also put the newest engine to the future J-16, too.

 

[siegecrossbow]

I understand your point, but I still disagree. As important and capable as the J-16's are, the J-20's are far more important and capable. There should be no curtailment of J-20 production for any reason. You just saw what happened to aircraft of the J-16's generation when they went up against stealth fighters.

Maybe the J-16's can be outfitted with other engines, or engine-manufacturing capacity sharply increased with a supplemental budget, or engines imported from Russia. But what the J-20 needs, the J-20 should get.

Contrary to popular beliefs, PLAAF budget is not a bottomless pit, which is why cost-effective aircraft such as the J-16 has a place in the Chinese arsenal.

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

Contrary to popular beliefs, PLAAF budget is not a bottomless pit, which is why cost-effective aircraft such as the J-16 has a place in the Chinese arsenal.

Certainly not, but given the last published military budget - 1 trillion RMB, which comes to about 285 billion "USD" in PPP terms - the Chinese military has some rather deep pockets. In any case, I certainly hope you're right and the PLAAF isn't just wasting money on AAM bait.

 

[CrusherChamp]

This is actually very bad news for China considering the fact that there are very few J-20s and the number will likely remain low in the next two to three years due to expense/WS-15 development.

In the first exercise, the pair of J-20s didn't carry WVR missiles, which led some observers to speculate that they intended to simulate F-35s in a similar mission. 4.5th and 4th generation escorts not only failed to protect the KJ-500 from such an attack but also suffered heavy loses.

This is a major wakeup call for PLAAF considering the fact that the U.S., South Korea, and Japan will deploy hundreds of F-35s/F-22s within the West Pacific theater.

To dear its not a bad newz at all.
1 it confirms that j20 program is on the wright path.
2 j20 performed exactly what he is.ment to psrform
3 if a 5th gen war plain is not stelthy then what is the meaning of 5tg gen
4 low in no. no country in the world could covert their entire fleet into 5th gen not even usa. It will take decays
5 there is major effective thig which is called tactics. And with the help of these kind of drills u can make tactics to handle these kinds of situation.

To dear its not a bad newz at all.
1 it confirms that j20 program is on the wright path.
2 j20 performed exactly what he is.ment to psrform
3 if a 5th gen war plain is not stelthy then what is the meaning of 5tg gen
4 low in no. no country in the world could covert their entire fleet into 5th gen not even usa. It will take decays
5 there is major effective thig which is called tactics. And with the help of these kind of drills u can make tactics to handle these kinds of situation.

This is actually very bad news for China considering the fact that there are very few J-20s and the number will likely remain low in the next two to three years due to expense/WS-15 development.

In the first exercise, the pair of J-20s didn't carry WVR missiles, which led some observers to speculate that they intended to simulate F-35s in a similar mission. 4.5th and 4th generation escorts not only failed to protect the KJ-500 from such an attack but also suffered heavy loses.

This is a major wakeup call for PLAAF considering the fact that the U.S., South Korea, and Japan will deploy hundreds of F-35s/F-22s within the West Pacific theater.

 

[Brainsucker]

Contrary to popular beliefs, PLAAF budget is not a bottomless pit, which is why cost-effective aircraft such as the J-16 has a place in the Chinese arsenal.

Yes, they are not. But you have also to remember that PLA just has extra cash after they cut their personnel numbers previously. 300.000 is not small. You can get many things with the money that being used to maintain those people before.

 

[qwerrty]

if that's true. china is not ready to fight war with the US yet.

 

[Menthol]

I don't understand.

Does it mean j20 is that good?

Does j20 capable to fight against USA fighter?

 

[CrusherChamp]

if that's true. china is not ready to fight war with the US yet.

These 2 countries will never fight a war againt each othe. Because wars r not fought with only j20 or f35. The nucks r buil to prevent the War and bouth countries cantt take the risk to fight a conventional war against each other.

 

[Cybernetics]

I don't understand.

Does it mean j20 is that good?

Does j20 capable to fight against USA fighter?

From testing the J-20 is 10-20:0 against a 3rd gen (american 4th gen) jet like J-11/F-15/SU-30 when equipped with medium range AAM. The ratio goes down to 3-5:1 when equipped with just short range AAM in a dog fight scenario.

 

[CrusherChamp]

From testing the J-20 is 10-20:0 against a 3rd gen (american 4th gen) jet like J-11/F-15/SU-30 when equipped with medium range AAM. The ratio goes down to 3-5:1 when equipped with just short range AAM in a dog fight scenario.

In a dog fight pilot skills play a major roll. Like Pak pilots flying f16 4gen defeated ef typhon 4++ in a dog fight. In a dog fight stelthy fetures dont make much differencd.
So what do u think the result r excluding dog fight?

 

[Cybernetics]

In a dog fight pilot skills play a major roll. Like Pak pilots flying f16 4gen defeated ef typhon 4++ in a dog fight. In a dog fight stelthy fetures dont make much differencd.
So what do u think the result r excluding dog fight?

Variety of factors affect the outcome in favour of J-20 in a dog fight against older jets:

• Yes, pilot skill does play a major role in outcome. There is a selection bias towards more skilled and experienced pilots for J-20 and other high end platforms
• J-20 is very manoeuvrable
• Much better situational awareness than 4th gen fighter. You "see through the plane" and is aware of enemy/friendly positions. The sensors on 5th gen is beyond the capabilities of previous generations.
• Better electronics, better tracking of enemy forces and more targets can be tracked at once, data connectivity with other assets, more streamlined data feed to pilot enables faster and better decision making. The plane helps the pilot process more information.
• Ratio goes down from medium range AAM scenario due to reduced advantage of stealth in dog fights.

Stealth is an important characteristic/advantage for 5th generation fighter jets but it's not the whole story. When the J-20 was tested, it was noted that it drastically improved the performance of all other assets in that force (it's coupled with older assets), the sensors and data links provide a force multiplier.

Excluding the dog fight the J-20 is 10-20:0 against 4th gen fighters from previous tests, new tactics will be developed to counter 5th gen fighters. It has the choice of not engaging in dog fights when equipped with medium range air-to-air missiles.

 

[52051]

So far, the J-16 is the only aircraft integrated with the long-range air-to-air missile and has a much higher weapons load than the J-20. It is less expensive, easier to maintain, and better suited to multi-role operations. I don't think it is feasible to kill the J-16s.

J-20's payload is only smaller than J-16 when it only use internal weapon bay, if they can use extenral load just like J-16, given J-20's impressive show of carrying four 2000L oil tanker under its wings, I doubt J-20 wont carry the weapons J-16 carries.

Sure with extenral load J-20's RCS will be comprised, but it is still better than J-16, and after all missiles shoot, it become stealth again and can engage the enemy with other J-20s.

Besides, according to some rumors, J-16 isnt much cheaper than J-20, somewhat bewteen 70-80% the price of J-20, so there is little point to produce alot of more of them when J-20's four production line come to full speed.

 

[Akasa]

This is actually very bad news for China considering the fact that there are very few J-20s and the number will likely remain low in the next two to three years due to expense/WS-15 development.

In the first exercise, the pair of J-20s didn't carry WVR missiles, which led some observers to speculate that they intended to simulate F-35s in a similar mission. 4.5th and 4th generation escorts not only failed to protect the KJ-500 from such an attack but also suffered heavy loses.

This is a major wakeup call for PLAAF considering the fact that the U.S., South Korea, and Japan will deploy hundreds of F-35s/F-22s within the West Pacific theater.

Time to consider the FC-31. Not only for the PLAN but also for the PLAAF.

Essentially the J-20 just showed what a war with the USA would look like.. a slaughterhouse for PLAAF forces.

The best solution is to use similar integration techniques and bring up J-20 and the second jet Chengdu has in the works quickly.

What second jet?

 

[siegecrossbow]

J-20's payload is only smaller than J-16 when it only use internal weapon bay, if they can use extenral load just like J-16, given J-20's impressive show of carrying four 2000L oil tanker under its wings, I doubt J-20 wont carry the weapons J-16 carries.

Sure with extenral load J-20's RCS will be comprised, but it is still better than J-16, and after all missiles shoot, it become stealth again and can engage the enemy with other J-20s.

Besides, according to some rumors, J-16 isnt much cheaper than J-20, somewhat bewteen 70-80% the price of J-20, so there is little point to produce alot of more of them when J-20's four production line come to full speed.

You have to take into account operational/maintenance costs as well. Flying and maintaining a fifth generation fighter for an hour isn't going to cost the same as flying a 4.5th generation fighter. I doubt that the J-16 is 70~80% of the J-20 since the worksmanship requirement for a 5th generation fighter far exceeds that of a 4th or even 4.5th generation fighter. According to Yang Wei, a stealth aerodynamics configuration literally needs to factor in the nuts and bolts of the plane. That, combined with the use of more composite material/titanium/RCS reduction coating, certainly implies a far more expensive airframe.