J-K not part of India, seeking plebiscite not a crime: Engineer Rashid

[Hiptullha]

For a Pakistani you have a great deal of Indian friends who speak about who they like or hate.

Or may be, just may be - it's all fiction.

No, I spent most of my youth as an apolitical guy who didn't bother about Indo-Pak relations. Regularly hung out with Indians and played cricket/football with them and got to know a lot about them.

 

[barbarosa]

The history and the historian of both of the countries (Pak India) are corrupted. They service for their nation wrongly and throw their countries and the future of their nation in the fire. what is teaching in India?, the enmity of Pakistan. What is teaching in Pakistan? the enmity of India, According to large population India high lite enmity for large scale. There is no any soft word for Pakistan in the 150 million population of India which is a bad task for the future of both countries.

 

[dray]

I have never met a Southern Indian in my life. I have met plenty of Northern Indians in the Middle East and North America who do claim that their Southern counterparts do stink of their spicy curries.
Now since you avoided my point, I'll state it again. How does smelly Pajeet working in a call center in Bangalore have any connection to the Indus Valley Civilization, apart from the fact that once a week, he prostrates in front of a painting of a blue-skinned man and an elephant boy and prays to the painting for a male child?



Lets avoid using such stereotypes. I'm not claiming that I have connection to Arabs or Persians. I have barely ever seen a Pakistani member on this forum stating anything similar. On the other hand, I have seen plenty of Southies and Bengalis like yourself making the ridiculous claim that you are somehow similar to those from the Indus Valley Civilization. I hate bringing up your ethnicity, but if the BS coming out of your mouth was coming from a Rajput then it would make a little sense, but honestly... a Bengali?



I believe you. You don't really need to convince me, since I don't care about the skin color of Bengalis. What I've noticed is that your compatriots do. I've had enough conversations with Indians living in the ME and NA to understand they look down upon you lot for your alleged dark skin color, your "funny" style of speaking, your "funny" fashion sense, and your "alien-ness". Like I said, no need to convince me.



Look, I know you're trying to deflect the discussion and make a few insulting remarks, I don't mind. I'm stating some painful truths. But whatever is coming out of my keyboard is from what I've heard Indian news outlets say, I've seen PDF Indians say, and what I've seen Indian expatriates say in real life. Whatever anger and bitterness you have should be directed not at me, but at your compatriots.
Anyways, a Hindu Bengali like you probably weren't even involved in the 1971 war. Most of you lot fled the country and even with the victory, continued fleeing the country. Bangladesh's Hindu population has taken a massive hit and from what I hear on PDF, isn't exactly pretty in West Bengal either. Should a Hindu Bengali really be talking about these victories?

I've noticed that you're avoiding the question which is the only reason we're having this silly little discussion. Let me ask it again.
What makes you - a Bengali of all people the inheritor of the Indus civilization?

It's good to know that my fellow Indians say bad things about Bengalis to soothe a local Pakistani's wounds, it's humane to do so...but I suggest you not to believe everything they say to make you feel good, because some of the Indians say very nasty things about you guys, like you are all madrassa educated jihadis, you marry half a dozen women, even cousins, and produce genetically goofed up kids en masse, you kill people with guns and bombs and chop off peoples' heads for weekend fun, drink camel piss like coka cola, and all such horrible things...I believe none of it, absolutely none of it, I don't agree with them....that's why I am suggesting you not to believe everything they say...people make up such unrealistic things....you see...or maybe I should start believing all those things?

On Bengalis, mostly Hindu Bengalis gave a bloody fight to the British and gave you guys freedom from the colonial rule, and mostly Muslim Bengalis gave you a bloody fight when you misused the freedom given to you by the Hindu Bengalis....so who are Bengalis? They are the ones who gave you freedom and then taught you a lesson.
About the Hindu-Muslim divide between the Bengalis, Muslim Bengalis did put their religion above their ethnicity wherever they were in majority, but that's the problem with Islam, not with Bengalis.

And I have already answered your question, IVC stretched to Ganges valley, and they gradually shifted to east, modern day India is the continuity of that civilization, but Pakistan discarded it. So someone from south India worshipping in front of a "painting of a blue-skinned man and an elephant boy" has much greater connections with the IVC people than someone bowing his head down while raising his behind up for a black rock somewhere far in the middle of a desert.

Coming back to the topic, dividing the nation on the basis of religion was an one time settlement, now people need to choose their country from the available options...however, anybody not agreeing to it has the option to fight and get killed, including the jihadis from Pakistan. I can also assure you that 'talk' won't help Pakistan get an inch of land.

 

[Hiptullha]

Indians say very nasty things about you guys,

Two completely different things. Whose insight would you trust? An American's insight on Canada or a Canadians insight on Canada?

And I have already answered your question, IVC stretched to Ganges valley, and they gradually shifted to east, modern day India is the continuity of that civilization,

You haven't explained to me how. Where's the continuity? Is it your lots habit of chanting to rocks? The myths about flying monkey spaceships? Flinging colored powder at one another on special days? How are we even sure that Ravi's skinny-dipping in the corpse-ridden Ganges is what the people of the Indus Civilization did thousands of years ago? Last time I checked, all Indians use to prove their claim is a carving of a cow and another of a lady. Is that it? The smoking gun to prove that Sanjiv's gomutra addiction directly links him to a several thousand year old civilization hundreds of miles away?

 

[SarthakGanguly]

No, I spent most of my youth as an apolitical guy who didn't bother about Indo-Pak relations. Regularly hung out with Indians and played cricket/football with them and got to know a lot about them.

In an alternate universe?

You haven't explained to me how. Where's the continuity? Is it your lots habit of chanting to rocks? The myths about flying monkey spaceships? Flinging colored powder at one another on special days? How are we even sure that Ravi's skinny-dipping in the corpse-ridden Ganges is what the people of the Indus Civilization did thousands of years ago? Last time I checked, all Indians use to prove their claim is a carving of a cow and another of a lady. Is that it? The smoking gun to prove that Sanjiv's gomutra addiction directly links him to a several thousand year old civilization hundreds of miles away?

With all due respect - trust me - you will not get it. Understanding it is ... well ... honestly beyond most Pakistanis.

The claim is based on the same rivers, the same Gods, the same ways of public service, the same culture, the pride in the good as well as the not so good things, the ornaments, the dressing patterns, the eating habits, the animal worship, the art and all that. We follow that to this day. A few Pakistanis do that too. They mostly live in Sindh. But the vast majority does not. Yours is an orphan civilization. You had one, you dumped it, considering it to be jahalat. Now you can lay claim on neither the Arab nor the Indic civilizations. Ok, the Arab one is fine with us. Not sure if the Arabs will like it.

You can chose your civ as you wish. Call it Pakistani/Indian/Bangladeshi/Muslim/Central Asia/etc. It does not bother us much. Except when we engage you folks and have a good laugh.

When you look for books on Takshila in libraries, look for the Indian History section.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Using the '****' word repeatedly and calling others son or kid doesn't make you any less moron than you are, India was known as India long before India was colonized by the west, and Pakistan was also a part of the 'ancient Indian civilization' before 1947, there is no 'ancient' Pakistan. It would be terrible if the delusional crap you are writing here is actually taught in Pakistani schools.

About Kashmir; you should learn to live with that frustration for the rest of your life.

I am actually calling you son judging by your level of intellect, which I think is fair.
India was known by India , by whom? Think about it , put your thinking cap on, and ask this question, did your ancestors choose this name for themselves or it "choose" for them. And you are getting annoyed at me calling you a "son"?

How come the "ancient" Indian civilization ever existed, when the name itself is hardly 200 years old created by foreign colonials ? If you are referring to the colonial era of slavery and take that as your civilization, good on you. In Pakistan we take that as a shame.

Our ancestors in Indus river plains build and sustained our ancient country/empire/civilization, whatever you want to call it, for thousands and thousands of years, the whole region (not just Pakistan) is littered with their work and their cities that they build, the land they merged all around with heartland which is Indus valley, the pattern which was followed by Babylonians and Egyptians who came AFTER us. YOU on our east are at best the offshoot from us, like the rest, who went on to build their own Ganges civilization. With this historical background, always remember your place in this hierarchy. We, the present day people of Indus plain, call our land, "the land of pure" , Pakistan, by lineage , by blood, we sit on top of the human evolution as civilized beings. Your claims about ancient India is nothing more but delusional rant without any knowledge of the history.

 

[Osiris]

I am actually calling you son judging by your level of intellect, which I think is fair.
India was known by India , by whom? Think about it , put your thinking cap on, and ask this question, did your ancestors choose this name for themselves or it "choose" for them. And you are getting annoyed at me calling you a "son"?

How come the "ancient" Indian civilization ever existed, when the name itself is hardly 200 years old created by foreign colonials ? If you are referring to the colonial era of slavery and take that as your civilization, good on you. In Pakistan we take that as a shame.

Our ancestors in Indus river plains build and sustained our ancient country/empire/civilization, whatever you want to call it, for thousands and thousands of years, the whole region (not just Pakistan) is littered with their work and their cities that they build, the land they merged all around with heartland which is Indus valley, the pattern which was followed by Babylonians and Egyptians who came AFTER us. YOU on our east are at best the offshoot from us, like the rest, who went on to build their own Ganges civilization. With this historical background, always remember your place in this hierarchy. We, the present day people of Indus plain, call our land, "the land of pure" , Pakistan, by lineage , by blood, we sit on top of the human evolution as civilized beings. Your claims about ancient India is nothing more but delusional rant without any knowledge of the history.

Please don't embarrass your self kid.

The First documented use word 'India' to denote this Indian subcontinent is done by Greek historian Herodotus more that 2500 years ago.

After travelling to this region, he refers to it as 'Indoi' in his memoirs.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Hard Fact like what? Pakistan liberated so called Azad Kashmir from India? Is this your fact? Gilgit Baltistan was also liberated? Is that your fact? 1948 war was started by India . Is this your fact?
Even most of the senior Pakistani members will trash your understanding of history.




Even if I believe you on India;s duplicity, in 1971 India stand corrected when Pakistan's theory of two nation state crumbled like deck of cards. Anyways that is a different topic, You can open another thread on it.

The FACT that Kashmir was/is a Muslim dominated state whose inhabitants were never allowed to exercise their right to choose between Pakistan and India. The rest are consequences coming out of this original Sin. We in Pakistan are up for plebiscite. Question is are you? What we say in Urdu "Doodh ka Doodh aur Pani ka Pani hojaey ga". What are you afraid of?

Bangladesh is not part of Indian federation. Not yet but it seems Hasina Wajid might achieve this milestone in future. Two nation theory is well and truely kicking and alive.

Please don't embarrass your self kid.

The First documented use word 'India' to denote this Indian subcontinent is done by Greek historian Herodotus more that 2500 years ago.

After travelling to this region, he refers to it as 'Indoi' in his memoirs.

Son, do you have a comprehension issue? The word "India" is used by "colonial" powers to refer to this peace of land. If you believe it was Greeks, they are not particularly your kind are they? My question to you again is, did your ancestors choose this name for themselves for it was chosen for them? I hope you understand the subtle difference here. With this background, where is your f**** ancient "Indian" history? Your Indian history started after 15th August 1947. Be happy that you are a independent nation now after being ruled over for so many ages by those who were not from your kind.

 

[barbarosa]

The FACT that Kashmir was/is a Muslim dominated state whose inhabitants were never allowed to exercise their right to choose between Pakistan and India. The rest are consequences coming out of this original Sin. We in Pakistan are up for plebiscite. Question is are you? What we say in Urdu "Doodh ka Doodh aur Pani ka Pani hojaey ga". What are you afraid of?

Bangladesh is not part of Indian federation. Not yet but it seems Hasina Wajid might achieve this milestone in future. Two nation theory is well and truely kicking and alive.

I would like to add that two nation theory become live once again in 1971 that the east Bengal become a new Muslim country and west Bengal ( Hindu) a part of India.

 

[Hiptullha]

The claim is based on the same rivers, the same Gods, the same ways of public service, the same culture, the pride in the good as well as the not so good things, the ornaments, the dressing patterns, the eating habits, the animal worship, the art and all that.

Man, I'm just not seeing it. It's similar to the freakin' Byzantines claiming to be true Romans because they decided to look like Romans, talk like Romans, dress like Romans, eat like Romans and be proud of their "Roman Heritage". And I'm not seeing religion being a big factor either. There're people in South America, Africa and Europe who pray to Jesus and you won't see them talking about them being somehow connected to the Middle East in any way. They're not connected. That's the thing. It's the same thing with you lot. A Bengali or Southie just can't lay claim because it's absurd. Even if you apparently share the same religion (probably not), you guys have diverged too far to even consider being similar.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Man, I'm just not seeing it.

I agree.

And I'm not seeing religion being a big factor either.

Me neither. Our dress, our dance style, our ornaments, our food, our culture - continues. But you won't see. That is fine with us.

Please don't embarrass your self kid.

The First documented use word 'India' to denote this Indian subcontinent is done by Greek historian Herodotus more that 2500 years ago.

After travelling to this region, he refers to it as 'Indoi' in his memoirs.

Taimoor is slow. Bear with him please. He will say "Look its Indoi. Not India". LOL.

 

[Hiptullha]

Our dress, our dance style, our ornaments, our food, our culture - continues.

Come on, I regularly hear you guys drone on about "Indian diversity". There are too many ethnicities in India for them all to share the same traits as the IVC Civ.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

I would like to add that two nation theory become live once again in 1971 that the east Bengal become a new Muslim country and west Bengal ( Hindu) a part of India.

The Two Nation Theory is a fact.

Islam cannot coexist with any other culture on a level of equality. It's not exactly two nation - as practicing Muslims will find a problem with any non Muslim Government. India or otherwise. Jinnah was partly right that we are different people. But it actually holds true for the entire world. Muslims and non Muslims are very different people. The cultural divorce of a Muslim with his/her native strain is too great to bridge. Not saying that it is necessarily bad. But that's how it is. Indians and practicing saccha Muslims are entirely different. I accept this fact without reservations.

Come on, I regularly hear you guys drone on about "Indian diversity". There are too many ethnicities in India for them all to share the same traits as the IVC Civ.

Yes.

But look up our native dance forms. Read their Wiki pages or any other simple source of your choosing. You will not miss the common thread.

Then you can look at food.

Then dress.

Then ways of showing respect.

And so on.

And in any case IVC was not a monolith either. There are many stages, many diverse stuff recorded there as well...

 

[Hiptullha]

But look up our native dance forms. Read their Wiki pages or any other simple source of your choosing. You will not miss the common thread.

The predominant form of dance over there is the Bollywood hip swaying and grinding against another's buttocks, nothing similar to the IVC.

Then you can look at food.

So diverse, I'm not going to even bother. In one place you guys are eating dogs, in other you're eating spicy veggies, in another your eating meat. Anyways, from what I've seen on this forum and the interwebs, Indians seem to be more interested in claiming things like Biryani and Chicken Tikka than their actual native foods

Then dress.

Once again, too diverse. You guys are all over the place in that department. Lungis here, turbans there, it's not even funny.

And in any case IVC was not a monolith either. There are many stages, many diverse stuff recorded there as well...

I doubt they were diverse enough to start eating spicy vegetable curries which kept them up all night, wore lungis and danced to Yo Yo Honey Singh.

 

[Osiris]

The FACT that Kashmir was/is a Muslim dominated state whose inhabitants were never allowed to exercise their right to choose between Pakistan and India. The rest are consequences coming out of this original Sin. We in Pakistan are up for plebiscite. Question is are you? What we say in Urdu "Doodh ka Doodh aur Pani ka Pani hojaey ga". What are you afraid of?

Bangladesh is not part of Indian federation. Not yet but it seems Hasina Wajid might achieve this milestone in future. Two nation theory is well and truely kicking and alive.



Son, do you have a comprehension issue? The word "India" is used by "colonial" powers to refer to this peace of land. If you believe it was Greeks, they are not particularly your kind are they? My question to you again is, did your ancestors choose this name for themselves for it was chosen for them? I hope you understand the subtle difference here. With this background, where is your f**** ancient "Indian" history? Your Indian history started after 15th August 1947. Be happy that you are a independent nation now after being ruled over for so many ages by those who were not from your kind.

Bull$hit kid, this land has always been known as India to outsiders..greeks..Romans..even Persians.
The local inhabitants called it Bharat.

Just because you hale from a country, which was an afterthought and a British conspiracy to extend their to rule in the subcontinent ..has no history of its own..has to borrow its history from Arabs.

Don't paint us with same brush..we have very rich and diverse history..and Unlike you we are an ancient civilization.