It is all about keeping China down and out...

[Götterdämmerung]

You know, what they got is democratic brainwashing, much more "superior" to autocratic brainwashing!

If you grow up with Bollywood, you would believe that US election is genuine and not a circus for the gullible masses.

 

[ahojunk]

The old way of controlling the rest of the world is via "empires".
That's the way of the old colonialists. This is so passé.
The rest of the world won't put up with this anymore.

The new way adopted by the Americans is not via empire building.
Empire building is a dirty word.
They still need another way to control or manipulate other nations.
Hence, they develop this great strategy which is called:-

https://williamblum.org/books/americas-deadliest-export

There are different types of democracy. The US presidential system is quite different to the Australian Parliamentary Democracy system, which is slightly harder to manipulate.
If they don't like the head of a country, they can conspire to remove them.
The CIA is very good at this and has a good track record.

So, it boggles my mind that many brainwashed people are so proud of their "democracy". To be honest, it is more "demoncrazy".

The other thing they regularly harped on is "free press".
My friends, there is no such thing as a "free press". There is "manufactured opinion" and "manufactured consent".
The elite cabal has already figured out that they only need to control 22 key persons and they can control the opinion of the entire country.

 

[ThaniOruvan]

The most brainwashed people I have seen in this forum are Indians.

That's because of your state. Can't help much.

You know, what they got is democratic brainwashing, much more "superior" to autocratic brainwashing!

Pigs living in a poultry farm don't acknowledge the freedom of a lion.
Pigs think that the stinking poultry is the best place in the whole world.

You wrote a lot but of little substance indeed!

"Please take a look at their employment data over the past two to three years."

For the more accurate statistics check following:

Alternate Unemployment Charts - John William's Shadow Government Statistics
http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/unemployment-charts

U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time
http://www.usdebtclock.org/


"Debt-to-GDP ratio" --> who they owe the debt to? Domestic? Foreign parties? What the debt is spent for? For something productive, or wasted on the over 50-million "welfare depends" of EBT/SNAP class? How about the availability of the infrastructure and its condition? Public utilities? The Chinese debt are owing to themselves. For the developments of infrastructure and public utilities you may read around PDF.

Talking about GDP, just beware of the GDP fallacies!

"Transactions reflecting both wealth creation and also economically destructive state spending are included in GDP without differentiation. Far from the government component of GDP being singled out from the total, it is often welcomed as contributing to economic growth. Macroeconomists, with an eye on the statistical impact of cuts in government spending, discourage governments from making them. The lack of distinction between wealth-creation and wealth-destruction is fundamental to their belief that state intervention is beneficial."

In short what does it imply? Even having a huge military spending waging wars everywhere will add up to the GDP number this is the miracle of the all inclusive and elastic GDP yardstick. Another example: UK started to include the grey sectors of prostitution and gambling businesses to jack up its GDP number as of 2014.

Read more here:

Robert P. Murphy, Pitfalls in GDP Accounting | Library of Economics and Liberty
http://www.econlib.org/library/Columns/y2016/Murphygdp.html#

How GDP Metrics Distort Our View of the Economy | Mises Institute
https://mises.org/library/how-gdp-metrics-distort-our-view-economy

The Fallacies Of GDP | ZeroHedge
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-13/fallacies-gdp


"The primary difference between these two nations is their per capita incomes. Isn't it enough for USA to spring back to the center stage supported by its job creation ?"

Per capita-wise of course China (as well as India as solely two nations on earth ever exceeding 1,000,000,000 people benchmark... and in reality they have 1,385 mio and 1,335 mio respectively - http://www.geohive.com/earth/population_now.aspx ) will be lower than the USA (with 325 mio). The USA has less than 1/4 of their populations... they simply have much different population scales. However, what wealth the state (gov) has/keep differs much among them... state-wise China is holding the most surplus while as USA has the deficits.


"Countries like Iran, Russia, Venezuela etc can forge bilateral trade deals to export oils with big economies like China, India and the EU. But which currency will they use other than USD ?"

So did you mean China pay in USD to their oil exports? When the USA is using the SWIFT mechanism as a tool to attack those countries LOL

"No. So best bet is the USD is an irreplaceable asset until a strong, alternate currency emerges. That currency is not going to be Yuan as it is weaker than the dollar. People only prefer alternatives that are better."

Individuals, corporations may prefer strong currency; but nations (states/govts) of world exporters do not. Not just China, just take a look at Germany, Japan, South Korea too.

Nope, China does not want its yuan to replace dollar as the WRC. The next exchange medium will evolve over time, it's unclear at present, perhaps IMF SDR comes into play.


"It is called democracy where people have basic rights like freedom of expression, freedom to speech etc."

Nope! The USA has corpotocracy vis-à-vis China has the one-party system.

Watch: A tale of two political systems:

The much hyped ideological concepts of democracy, freedom of expression, freedom to speech alone etc neither feed the people nor make society prosper and have better lives... you can witness your own country as "the largest democratic nation" on earth.... what is the good of all the hypes??

On the contrary, the basic rights of people are the fulfilment of the basic life necessities (food, clothes, housing) incl. access to toilets, clean water, electricity; free from poverty; access to education and healthcare and further opportunities for better standard of living, security and safety, and prosperous and harmonious society and so on! Needless to say the huge efforts to uplift the livelihood of around 1.4 billion people are taking gigantic, unprecedented real hard works, the true deeds instead of empty words!

Not relevant at all that people can vote, can express, can speech... if they remain poor and backward and uneducated, then all the so-called "individual freedom" becomes useless, irrelevant... it's indeed very inhuman, against the essential human rights to remain POOR and UNEDUCATEDLY STUPID. Then all those ideological hypes become useless.... that's why the factual reality of the society, of the nation in aggregate is much more important than all the conceptual ideological matters.

Think using one's own cognitive power, logic and rationality, do not just parrot or swallow the propaganda of the mainstream media (MSM). Otherwise, no wonder why a nation remains poor and stays in backwardness!

My job is not to convince a brainwashed guy.
If you feel China is the greatest super power then all the best.

 

[samsara]

That's because of your state. Can't help much. Take a hike.

Pigs living in a poultry farm don't acknowledge the freedom of a lion.
Pigs think that the stinking poultry is the best place in the whole world.

My job is not to convince a brainwashed guy.
If you feel China is the greatest super power then all the best.

I do believe the Chinese system is superior for its OWN PEOPLE, at around 1,400,000,000 head counts....
of course you're free to believe that the Indian political system is superior for the nearly equal head counts of 1,400,000,000 people.... irrespective of the REALITIES... I have NO mission here to convince you or others what best suits the Indian people, I simply clarify the fallacies pumped by the mainstream media about the nation of China... and I'm deadly sure what's the best, working system for the Chinese people since I'm learning their very long history!

Needless to say a nation as large as China as well as India is not a social laboratory to do any experiment with some particular political system and/or ideology... any good working system must be kept for the sake of billions more people.... in no way it's a trial lab!

Thinking you may wish to dig into the essence of the FAKE NEWS manufactures as it's a hot issue in the USA nowadays... your champion of democracy, freedom, human rights

To be frank I'm allergic to these much politically abused terms when their importance is hyped as such to surpass the ACTUAL, REAL livelihood of people of a nation!

~~~~~~~~~

"There is no fool worse than active fool. So many words, so little content." - Russian saying

"You take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes."

 

[sweetgrape]

That's because of your state. Can't help much. Take a hike.


Pigs living in a poultry farm don't acknowledge the freedom of a lion.
Pigs think that the stinking poultry is the best place in the whole world.



My job is not to convince a brainwashed guy.
If you feel China is the greatest super power then all the best.

Hehe, I was pig in cage, you were free lion? I like rabbit, pet rabbit, never mind, whatever you like.

Don't you find not only apply to me, also apply to you, because we both think opposite are self rightous. Enjoy your "democracy", I enjoy my "cage", Now China has entered into 2017, it will be a cool year, happy new year to you too, Indian.

 

[rott]

That's because you booze too much and lost the capacity to differentiate reality and dream.
How much can we get for brainwashing and forced education ?

lol boozed too much. NEVER heard of the term, "boozed too much". Let me explain something, Indians don't need to get boozed - to get boozed. They are always boozed without getting boozed. I can't make it more simpler. But you guys are always boozed and I never take you seriously -FACT!!!!

 

[faithfulguy]

lol boozed too much. NEVER heard of the term, "boozed too much". Let me explain something, Indians don't need to get boozed - to get boozed. They are always boozed without getting boozed. I can't make it more simpler. But you guys are always boozed and I never take you seriously -FACT!!!!

If India represents democracy, and China represent dictatorship, than it's clearly dictatorship is a better form of government if you only take these two countries as example. The Indian democracy literally destroys what democracy really mean.

The problem is that a political system that benefit Britain does not necessarily benefit another country such as India. Until India find a new political system that work for itself, it will permanently mire in poverty and impoverishment. The buzzword "democracy" will not make India a better nation.

 

[52051]

Of cause Americans tried their best to keep China down and out at its national interests.

China should not expect anything different than that, and it is just China should do the same to the US.

 

[Götterdämmerung]

That's because of your state. Can't help much.

You are right that quite a lot of my fellow countrymen have been brainwashed by the CIA mockingbird media. But a lot are starting to wake up. Only Indians are still sleep walking.

 

[Cybernetics]

Hello everyone, this is my first post on PDF! After being a passive observer for 2 years on PDF I have noticed genuine disconnect/disagreements between some Indian and Chinese members over each other's political system. From my perspective I see Chinese members' critical view "liberal democracy" and their proponents not due to deep rooted hatred for such a system or their people but its attempt to become universal. The evangelicalism of liberal democracy is alien and quite threatening from a Chinese lens.

Chinese people have no problem adopting a political system that will help to fulfill the duties of the state. The political system is viewed as a tool to an end not the end in itself. When liberal democracy is viewed as an end in itself or the 'end of history' then it becomes a religion with difficulty in reform, since every iteration must be interpreted through the lens of liberal democratic values. The difference with the current Chinese political system is that it is a metrics driven system with the facade of the Communist Party to ensure political continuity. The people in charge of the current system are more nationalists than ideologues. Personally I think if a developing country like China wants to quickly close the gap with more economically developed nations such as the USA, Japan, and Western European nations it is more constructive to be metrics driven compared to driven by ideology (while a healthy amount helps to inspire). When we are not blinded by ideology the path to prosperity (depends on your values) becomes clear.

Often economists would say the growth of China is a macro story while India's is a micro story in the economic sense. Macro being across the entire society and micro being firm or sector specific. India has some quite internationally competitive companies with great corporate culture such as TATA. The same cannot be said about all state governments and federal government. This growth pattern results relatively strong aggregate growth but structural unevenness that is hard to correct in the short to mid term. Of course there are structural political reasons why centralization isn't suitable for India at this point in development. Meanwhile China's rise has been observed to be macro growth. China's government operates much like a large company (China Inc.) with many local officials forced to be entrepreneurial (attract or build opportunities) to meet certain metrics. The metrics themselves evolves overtime to meet the needs of the nation like how blind gdp growth made sense for the first 30 years of opening up since there was a proven business model and all you had to do was scale it up but makes little sense now when such a model has reached a limit (diminishing returns), thus reassessment of metrics was made based on circumstance. Much like a startup you don't always know what exact business model/political system you will have 20 years down the road but what really matters is that it evolved according to the problems the nation faced and resolved, thus keeping the system relevant and not rhetoric.

I see China waking up to containment by the USA (or others) as a positive for the world. One should not assume the US will entirely stop containment of China or any rising nation if you appease it (could buy you time), its just the nature of geopolitics (where only logic and interest matters). History and technological growth had been forged through the process of struggle and aspiration for greatness but we must also find balance to avoid the destruction of humanity. China's growth will be forged by the challenges it faces and overcomes, hopefully resulting in a more capable nation ready to play an even bigger role in developing itself and the world. If we have more large technocratic states (small is good too) competing in this world I see hope for humanity to finally break the chains of confinement/containment to this planet so we can fight over bigger things and not petty issues that might lead to our destruction.

While I see China's awakening as a positive, blind nationalism is destructive for China. Nationalism for the state is a tool to achieve cohesion in times of turbulence or transition and should be known as such for the purpose of discussion on forums. We should remember that stable trade with developed markets is not merely for the superficial gdp growth or dollars but more importantly for technological know how, advanced management practices, cross-cultural interaction, and the enlightenment of the population to push the frontiers of production and development of one's mind. This of course doesn't mean China is chained to globalism (again its a tool, not an ideology for China), I actually see sanctions on China in the high-tech and defense related sectors to be immensely helpful to its development.

I hope we can all be more respectful to each other's differences and agree to disagree. Be proud of your respective nations, we have come so far, but remember humanity is on a endless journey. We are in the times that will shape the next era of humanity. Cheers and Happy New Year Everyone!

 

[ahojunk]

After being a passive observer for 2 years on PDF

Yes, this is a very good idea to observe first before posting.
However, you don't need 2 years, I reckon all you need is 2 days, and you will be able to figure out the good posters from the bad.

I am not aware of any member who get a positive on his very first post.
Well done.

I hope we can all be more respectful to each other's differences and agree to disagree. Be proud of your respective nations, we have come so far, but remember humanity is on a endless journey. We are in the times that will shape the next era of humanity. Cheers and Happy New Year Everyone!

Yes, Yes, Yes, be respectful to each other's opinions. Very well said.
You can agree to disagree. Move on, there is no need for personal insults.
Insults and inflammatory posts will get you a warning, ban or a negative rating.

 

[TopWater]

Hello everyone, this is my first post on PDF! After being a passive observer for 2 years on PDF I have noticed genuine disconnect/disagreements between some Indian and Chinese members over each other's political system. From my perspective I see Chinese members' critical view "liberal democracy" and their proponents not due to deep rooted hatred for such a system or their people but its attempt to become universal. The evangelicalism of liberal democracy is alien and quite threatening from a Chinese lens.

Chinese people have no problem adopting a political system that will help to fulfill the duties of the state. The political system is viewed as a tool to an end not the end in itself. When liberal democracy is viewed as an end in itself or the 'end of history' then it becomes a religion with difficulty in reform, since every iteration must be interpreted through the lens of liberal democratic values. The difference with the current Chinese political system is that it is a metrics driven system with the facade of the Communist Party to ensure political continuity. The people in charge of the current system are more nationalists than ideologues. Personally I think if a developing country like China wants to quickly close the gap with more economically developed nations such as the USA, Japan, and Western European nations it is more constructive to be metrics driven compared to driven by ideology (while a healthy amount helps to inspire). When we are not blinded by ideology the path to prosperity (depends on your values) becomes clear.

Often economists would say the growth of China is a macro story while India's is a micro story in the economic sense. Macro being across the entire society and micro being firm or sector specific. India has some quite internationally competitive companies with great corporate culture such as TATA. The same cannot be said about all state governments and federal government. This growth pattern results relatively strong aggregate growth but structural unevenness that is hard to correct in the short to mid term. Of course there are structural political reasons why centralization isn't suitable for India at this point in development. Meanwhile China's rise has been observed to be macro growth. China's government operates much like a large company (China Inc.) with many local officials forced to be entrepreneurial (attract or build opportunities) to meet certain metrics. The metrics themselves evolves overtime to meet the needs of the nation like how blind gdp growth made sense for the first 30 years of opening up since there was a proven business model and all you had to do was scale it up but makes little sense now when such a model has reached a limit (diminishing returns), thus reassessment of metrics was made based on circumstance. Much like a startup you don't always know what exact business model/political system you will have 20 years down the road but what really matters is that it evolved according to the problems the nation faced and resolved, thus keeping the system relevant and not rhetoric.

I see China waking up to containment by the USA (or others) as a positive for the world. One should not assume the US will entirely stop containment of China or any rising nation if you appease it (could buy you time), its just the nature of geopolitics (where only logic and interest matters). History and technological growth had been forged through the process of struggle and aspiration for greatness but we must also find balance to avoid the destruction of humanity. China's growth will be forged by the challenges it faces and overcomes, hopefully resulting in a more capable nation ready to play an even bigger role in developing itself and the world. If we have more large technocratic states (small is good too) competing in this world I see hope for humanity to finally break the chains of confinement/containment to this planet so we can fight over bigger things and not petty issues that might lead to our destruction.

While I see China's awakening as a positive, blind nationalism is destructive for China. Nationalism for the state is a tool to achieve cohesion in times of turbulence or transition and should be known as such for the purpose of discussion on forums. We should remember that stable trade with developed markets is not merely for the superficial gdp growth or dollars but more importantly for technological know how, advanced management practices, cross-cultural interaction, and the enlightenment of the population to push the frontiers of production and development of one's mind. This of course doesn't mean China is chained to globalism (again its a tool, not an ideology for China), I actually see sanctions on China in the high-tech and defense related sectors to be immensely helpful to its development.

I hope we can all be more respectful to each other's differences and agree to disagree. Be proud of your respective nations, we have come so far, but remember humanity is on a endless journey. We are in the times that will shape the next era of humanity. Cheers and Happy New Year Everyone!

I also have been a silent observer of PDF for the last couple of years. The back and forth arguments between the posters about which system is better have been tiring at times. I believe that there is no single universal system that is better than the other and that each country should develope a system that best suits its own unique situation. I enjoyed reading your post. It was an excellent assessment of China's position in the context of its own history and where it stands in the world today. Especially your comment on how its people views its governance as a tool and not as an end in itself. It is refreshing to see such a mature, wise and level headed opinion on the subjects you presented. Happy New Year.

 

[Götterdämmerung]

Happy new year !



Only people who are brain washed on earth are the following varieties.

1. Muslims
2. Communists

Because only the above varieties need an inspiring history to carry forward.
Without an inspiring history these varieties will cease to exist.

You make a bad name for India and you are not the first one.

 

[sbmc27]

Modi effects- the hypernationalism.

You make a bad name for India and you are not the first one.

 

[Solomon2]

"By way of deception thou shalt do war" That's the motto of the intelligence service of a certain tribe.

An appeal to race prejudice? Really?