Issuance of a PAF Standing Order 2002

[abdulbarijan]

So what changed in 2002 compared to 1999? New inductions? BVRs? Did US supply required spares and F16s? If nothing changed, then how could PAF retaliate against IAF in a full scale war?
I am solely referring to kargil war (not that I agree with your assertions of 1965 and 71, but that is OT). It was a mauling of PA by IAF...

Counter question: If nothing changed, if it was the same PA and PAF etc. which the IA/IAF "mauled" in Kargil -- why did the Indian military ran back home in 2002 --- after all the -- we'll do this & that and the typical tirade that we're used to ...

 

[Sneaker]

Counter question: If nothing changed, if it was the same PA and PAF etc. which the IA/IAF "mauled" in Kargil -- why did the Indian military ran back home in 2002 --- after all the -- we'll do this & that and the typical tirade that we're used to ...

Because our political indecision. There was no doubt of gains in case of war but we knew that there would be losses of our soldiers and assets too. On top of that danger of nuclear war. All this lead to our govt not setting proper goals for armed forces. The whole idea was to pressurize pak into closing terror infrastructure but not corner it too much to risk a nuclear war.

 

[Windjammer]

So what changed in 2002 compared to 1999? New inductions? BVRs? Did US supply required spares and F16s? If nothing changed, then how could PAF retaliate against IAF in a full scale war?
I am solely referring to kargil war (not that I agree with your assertions of 1965 and 71, but that is OT). It was a mauling of PA by IAF...

The F-7PG version was delivered in middle of hostilities in 2002, not to fire sidewinders since PAF already had that capability, besides by then(2002) PAF had acquired alternative sources for F-16 spare parts.
After failing to make Pakistan blink, India was feeling adventitious for a limited war by carrying out strikes in Liberated Kashmir, PAF had selected it's target inside India but India lost the appetite.
As for much vaunted mauling, we are discussing the aerial aspect of the war and IAF was indeed given a bloody nose by a much smaller air force.

 

[VelocuR]

100+ F-7P / Mirages (old junks)
30 F-16 only
0 JF-17
0 AWACS
0 Air Refueling

F-7P and Mirages saved the day!

 

[Windjammer]

Muntho Dhalo was, and still is, in pakistani side of LOC. And looks like you haven't read Kaiser Tufail's narration incident where is "toast" MiG locked on to and unnerved PAF pilot. Plus, PAF had nothing to do in 3 cases where IAF/IA air assets were downed, it was PA with MANPADS. In any case, PAF would be required to cross into Indian side of LOC in 2002, in case of war, right? If it couldn't do it in 1999, how could it do the same in 2002?

According to some Indian sources, Pakistan still occupies some half dozen Indian peaks.
Pilots from both sides locked onto each other while flying within their own airspace, in fact once the Indian GCI controller had to warn the Fulcrum flight of them being tailed by a pair of F-16s.
Had IAF crossed the LOC and launched attack on Pakistani side then PAF would have retaliated.

Tehelka - The People's Paper

 

[Sneaker]

The F-7PG version was delivered in middle of hostilities in 2002, not to fire sidewinders since PAF already had that capability, besides by then(2002) PAF had acquired alternative sources for F-16 spare parts.
After failing to make Pakistan blink, India was feeling adventitious for a limited war by carrying out strikes in Liberated Kashmir, PAF had selected it's target inside India but India lost the appetite.
As for much vaunted mauling, we are discussing the aerial aspect of the war and IAF was indeed given a bloody nose by a much smaller air force.

So, chinese copy of MiG 21 against original MiG 21s and 4+ gen fighters like MKIs and MiG 29s, with no BVRs (still)... great odds stacked against PAF..

According to some Indian sources, Pakistan still occupies some half dozen Indian peaks.
Pilots from both sides locked onto each other while flying within their own airspace, in fact once the Indian GCI controller had to warn the Fulcrum flight of them being tailed by a pair of F-16s.
Had IAF crossed the LOC and launched attack on Pakistani side then PAF would have retaliated.

Tehelka - The People's Paper

How 1 peak became half a dozen? I am sure by end of this discussion it will be 100's. FYI, the peak in question was not involved in kargil war. No need to go in detail as this thread is how PAF improved from 1999 to 2002. From your reply, it seems it did not. So, there is no reason to believe it would have done anything better than Kargil, directive given or not, result would be same..

 

[Mutakalim]

Where was this super duper Air Defense during the Bin Laden raid?

Now don't say that the armed forces knew about this raid because that would IMPLY that Bin Laden was being protected by the military itself.

You can't have it both ways: either Bin Laden was being protected or the Air Defense was incompetent.

From your post incompetency of understanding basic defense issues is reflecting. So kindly do some research before posting senseless remarks.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Because our political indecision. There was no doubt of gains in case of war but we knew that there would be losses of our soldiers and assets too. On top of that danger of nuclear war. All this lead to our govt not setting proper goals for armed forces. The whole idea was to pressurize pak into closing terror infrastructure but not corner it too much to risk a nuclear war.

So your entire posture is India "could have" done such and such and such but it did not due to the "indecision" of the politicians ---

Bottom line -- after loosing some 800 soldiers according to conservative estimates, Indian military returned home after making all those tall claims like a child who goes "I'll get the first place in this exam", only to hide his checked paper so that his parents wont know that he failed --

By the way, your assertion of the lack of political willingness to attack Pakistan does beg a very serious question -- Why wasn't the Indian military able to convince the political establishment that the gains that the Indian military will presumably make will outweigh the costs -- especially after the tall claims coming from the politicians themselves after the parliament attacks ---
or is it the reverse of what you think happened and the military was the one loosing its will --

Just in case you've forgot here are a few quotes from Indian politicians themselves --

“We will liquidate the terrorists and their sponsors whoever they are, wherever they are.”
LK Advani

“The punishment will be as big as the crime”.
Indian PM at the time Vajpayee

"The government should strike with an iron hand on the evil designs of terrorists”
Bal Thakery

Lastly, the F-7 PG is not just another "Chinese copy of a mig-21" it was heavily upgraded with western avionics as per PAF requirements -- and lets not forget that Pakistan in those times was very secretive about its acquisitions, infact people tend to forget today that there were rumors about PAF operating a BVR missile way before the Aim-120 deal (MLU + blk-52 deal) was ever signed ....

 

[Screambowl]

So what changed in 2002 compared to 1999? New inductions? BVRs? Did US supply required spares and F16s? If nothing changed, then how could PAF retaliate against IAF in a full scale war?
I am solely referring to kargil war (not that I agree with your assertions of 1965 and 71, but that is OT). It was a mauling of PA by IAF...


Muntho Dhalo was, and still is, in pakistani side of LOC. And looks like you haven't read Kaiser Tufail's narration incident where is "toast" MiG locked on to and unnerved PAF pilot. Plus, PAF had nothing to do in 3 cases where IAF/IA air assets were downed, it was PA with MANPADS. In any case, PAF would be required to cross into Indian side of LOC in 2002, in case of war, right? If it couldn't do it in 1999, how could it do the same in 2002?

Just bomb their Karachi port, create blockade and they will be left with just 1 week of fuel supply . Their PAF shaheens will become sitting ducks . One week is the time frame of war. They will be able to inflict only low damage to our air bases near border. That's all

 

[omega supremme]

Just bomb their Karachi port, create blockade and they will be left with just 1 week of fuel supply . Their PAF shaheens will become sitting ducks . One week is the time frame of war. They will be able to inflict only low damage to our air bases near border. That's all

well it's very hard to do bombing in karachi although you maybe successful in putting a blockade but than we have a great friend to our north who'll be happy to supply ammunition and fuel supply if a requirement comes

 

[Screambowl]

well it's very hard to do bombing in karachi although you maybe successful in putting a blockade but than we have a great friend to our north who'll be happy to supply ammunition and fuel supply if a requirement comes

So what's the use of creating Pakistan if you are not self reliable?

 

[I S I]

So what's the use of creating Pakistan if you are not self reliable?

Funny that you didn't said the same in front of a mirror when asking for Israel's help during 1971 war. Idiot.

 

[Sneaker]

Why wasn't the Indian military able to convince the political establishment that the gains that the Indian military will presumably make will outweigh the costs

That is the fundamental difference when you are ruled by a dictatorship vs democratic system. It isn't job of military to convince govt about anything in India. They can give reason based expert opinions and advice. It is not up to military to define what is "gain".
The whole scenario is this, what could PAF have done to oppose IAF when it withdrew from fight in 1999 and there wasn't any improvement in it's position in 2002 (during stand off). If PAF was physically unable to resist IAF, what use is of any directive given by any one? It is just a piece of paper not worth the money spent on printing it.

 

[abdulbarijan]

That is the fundamental difference when you are ruled by a dictatorship vs democratic system. It isn't job of military to convince govt about anything in India. They can give reason based expert opinions and advice. It is not up to military to define what is "gain".
The whole scenario is this, what could PAF have done to oppose IAF when it withdrew from fight in 1999 and there wasn't any improvement in it's position in 2002 (during stand off). If PAF was physically unable to resist IAF, what use is of any directive given by any one? It is just a piece of paper not worth the money spent on printing it.

In other words, Indian politicians weren't confident enough that the "gains" defined by the political establishment were achievable by the mighty Indian armed forces ---

I mean just look at the statements they gave before the mobilization started, and we all know who tucked their tails between their legs and went back after announcing of how it was coming for payback for the "parliment attacks" ....

Again, like mentioned before, there was little role of PAF in te kargil conflict as the fighting was taking place on the indian side of the LOC, so you simply cannot assume, "oh the IAF of 1999 would have wiped the floor with the PAF" as they never went head to head in a full blown out air war like in 1965 or 1971 in both cases IAF having significant numerical advantage and we all know how that turned out for the IAF don't we ---

However, as a senior member has already pointed out, we were getting spares for our falcons, the F-7PG was delivered to PAF and like I said previously, PAF had been allegedly operating a BVR well before the Aim 120 deal was ever signed, so bottom line and the answer to your question as well, the PAF of 2002 was significantly superior to that of the one in 1999 ....

 

[Screambowl]

Funny that you didn't said the same in front of a mirror when asking for Israel's help during 1971 war. Idiot.

Don't go back in History talk about current situation.