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Israel Plans To Buy Over 100 F-35s !

The fact that they have bought 72 fighters plus option for more suggest that U.S. planes have been displaced. I doubt Saudi will buy many F-35.


Thats a flawed suggestion and let me tell you why.. The Saudis are still going to be strategically allied to the US...as well as a major oil supplier for many years to come. The core of the Saudi Military is American. The F-15s and F-4s, Apache attack helicopters...the E-3 sentry AWACS and the 50 plus C-130s /KC-130 refuelers form the backbone of the Saudi Airforce. It only makes sense for the Saudis to go for the next generation American weaponry to replace its F-15s and F-4s with F-35s and F-22s rather than just sit pretty with 72 eurofighters for ages to come.

Also, the 72 Typhoon deal is much more than a simple sale of planes...It is a strategic alliance with UK that was initiated after the first Gulf War with the sale of the Tornados. This alliance has British fighter pilots employed by the Saudi Airforce, maintainence crews,tech support,training etc for the next 20 years.

It is however likely that the American supplied F-4s will be replaced by the French Rafales in the near future.
 
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The eurofighter is 2nd to only the raptor. Yea, it has a better radar then that of JSF, i bleive it also has supercruise which only the raptor does, The eurofighter has 13 hardpoints and can carry a mix of missiles for differet roles. Air-superiority , Air interdiction, SEAD, Multi-role , Close air support , Maritime attack

A Rahman, observe the difference between an amateur and a professional.

Thunder, if you those are your only good points, then get a B-52. If speed is also your requirement, then get a Backfire.

What you have been missing ... and all amateurs have been missing ... is how the F-35 FITS into the STRIKE PACKAGE. Why did you think the Brits were so insistent on the software transfrer? To fit into with THEIR OWN SYSTEMS.

There is no doubt that the Americans field the BEST air strike packages on earth ... and the F-35 is designed to fit within that strike package. Hard points be damned, it's LOITER time and C4ISR that means a hell of alot more. There is NO WAY a squadron of EUROFIGHTERs nor F-35 can equal the ordnance deliver by a single flight of B-52s.

What does matter is that the planes can transfer the targetting info to that flight of B-52s ... AND that is where the F-35 outshines the EUROFIGHTER each and everytime!
 
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what will happen to those displaced planes? any plans of selling them?

I meant displaced in the sense that it has "displaced" potential purchase of F-22 and most probably the F-35 as well. I also seriously doubt the saudi's are buying French planes after having bought the eurofighter, its because the french and eurofighter are way too similar and its more expensive than the eurofighter.

Those F-15's are going nowhere, they will field them alongside the Typhoon (untill the F-15's are breaking apart. I mean Pak. and India still field their old crap Mig-21's). The F-15's are way too valuable in their ground attack role (just look at their price tags). If anything, the Typhoon is going to replace the British Tornadoes but i even doubt that that will be on a 1:1 ratio. (They will induct more Typhoons than the number of Tornadoes retired).

I also believe that the Suadi's will exercise the option to buy around another 12-24 more Typhoons in a few years if their economic growth is strong (which depends on volatile Oil price).

In a sense this was overdue, Saudi military had become overdependant on one supplier the U.S. This has diversified their portfolio of weaponry to include Europe in a significant way. I wouldnt be suprised if in another five years Saudi's start purchasing some Russian and Chinese weaponry as well. By purchasing not from U.S., Saudi is forcing the U.S. to offer their gear at more competitive prices. Saudi's have traditionally paid much more than Israel or even Egypt for their gear and they are no longer willing to accept it.
 
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A Rahman, observe the difference between an amateur and a professional.

Thunder, if you those are your only good points, then get a B-52. If speed is also your requirement, then get a Backfire.

What you have been missing ... and all amateurs have been missing ... is how the F-35 FITS into the STRIKE PACKAGE. Why did you think the Brits were so insistent on the software transfrer? To fit into with THEIR OWN SYSTEMS.

There is no doubt that the Americans field the BEST air strike packages on earth ... and the F-35 is designed to fit within that strike package. Hard points be damned, it's LOITER time and C4ISR that means a hell of alot more. There is NO WAY a squadron of EUROFIGHTERs nor F-35 can equal the ordnance deliver by a single flight of B-52s.

What does matter is that the planes can transfer the targetting info to that flight of B-52s ... AND that is where the F-35 outshines the EUROFIGHTER each and everytime!
Bro it fits into a strike package because it's a strike fighter, eurofighter is a air superiourty fighter. Eurofighter can also do tons of role the JSF can't. Just look at the damn payloads of these fighters, eurofighter has a better radar then the JSF, it's more mounverable, more verstile, more capable. The EF can also lauch cruise missiles while the JSF can't. Excpet for stealth(which can be debatable), the JSF is 2nd to the EF in all aspects
 
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Euro fighter is a work horse while the JSF is'nt.
The F-35 is every bit a workhorse. Its designed to be a completely multi-role aircraft and will replace the F-16 and F-15 completely. The sheer number of orders are testament to that.

The euro fighter is the 2nd best plane in the world, after the raptor.
Only while the F-35 is not in service.

The only ting impressive in the JSF is probabley it's cocpit or it's stealth(that tiny bit)
The F-35's stealth isn't tiny. Its a fraction of that of the Typhoon. The Typhoon is merely reduced RCS while the F-35 is stealth. The RCS of the F-35 is estimated to be less than 1% of the EF-2000.

Yea, it has a better radar then that of JSF, i bleive it also has supercruise which only the raptor does,
The F-35's AN/APG-81 fire control radar is technically the best one in the world. It definitely better than the CAESAR that the EF-2000 will eventually get. In sheer power though it is eclipsed by the F-22's AN/APG-77. The F-35's max. speed in dry thrust is not definite as yet. The latest version of Pratt and Whitney F135 has the highest thrust achieved in fighter's engine.

Who needs "Stealth" when the Eurofighter can fire Stealthy JSOW Scalp-EG cruise missiles at an excess of 300km away?
Since, when are cruise missiles used in an A2A role?

Its F-35s will be bought with American Taxpayers dollars just like everything else Israel has in its arsenal.
US military aid to Israel is about $3 billion which isn't too much for a country that spends $420 billion+ on defence.

Since the Saudi's also have a large number of F-15s in their airforce, they could also choose between the JSF-35 or the RAPTOR to replace those down the road.
The Saudis will get their hands on the F-22 when Israel and Iran become allies. The F-35 is very unlikely too. That sort of tech isn't going reach any middle eastern Islamic country while Israel is still around.
 
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Jet fighter still only a paper tiger
By Brian Robins and Gerard Ryle
May 1, 2004
Page Tools



The Joint Strike Fighter is to be the centrepiece of the RAAF's strike capability, replacing both the F/A-18 Hornet fighters and the ageing F-111 swing-wing bombers. But the cost has risen by more than 20 per cent and it is running behind schedule, with continuing doubts about software development. And it's still not off the drawing board.

Any delay in the schedule will complicate the planned retirement of the F-111s, putting additional strain on the Defence budget.

As with the F/A-18 Hornet, neither Australia, nor any United States ally, buying the F-35 will receive the top level of technology, which is retained exclusively for the US forces. How much this will compromise the F-35's much-vaunted "stealth" capability is not clear.

This is the reality of the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), also known as the F-35, the next generation of US fighter aircraft. A consortium of countries - including Australia - is working with the US on its development. Australia has pencilled in a $12 billion outlay on the aircraft - which has yet to fly - though the final price is expected to rise steeply.

According to US defence data, the initial cost of the F-35 was to be $US35 million ($48 million) for each plane. This compares with the $30 million Australia paid for the F/A-18 Hornet. But the Congressional Budget Office believes the F-35 will cost $US73 million per aircraft, based on initial development cost forecasts, more than double the estimates given to the US allies planning to buy it.

Three years into its development program, the JSF is already 12 months behind schedule and the first aircraft won't be available to the US armed forces until 2007. The cost overruns come as little surprise, since the aircraft is still a "paper plane" - the first is not scheduled to be airborne until late next year, although this, too, is looking increasingly ambitious.

The US Department of Defence has directed that work on the JSF be slowed until problems with its development are sorted out. The most recent US defence budget included an extra $US4.6 billion of restructuring charges, lifting the cost of developing the JSF to $US40.5 billion from the original $US33 billion. Yet the JSF is due to replace Australia's F-111 and F/A-18 aircraft from early next decade, so the delays threaten to complicate our acquisition schedule.

Soon after work began on the JSF in 2000, US Government agencies, such as the General Accounting Office (the equivalent of Australia's National Audit Office), said the timetable was too ambitious and warned of extensive delays and a blow-out in costs, which are now eventuating.

The preliminary design review for the JSF was to be completed by the end of March, but has been delayed by the design's weight increase. This means that a critical design review, due in the third quarter of this year, and the first flight, scheduled for the end of next year, will almost certainly be delayed.

A one-year delay will push initial deliveries of the F-35 to Australia out to 2013-14, which would not only complicate plans to retire the F-111s but require upgrades to the F/A-18 fighters - all at a time when Defence has a large number of other big-ticket items due to be retired.

Presuming it flies, the F-35 will still lag behind the performance of the F/A-22 Raptor fighter aircraft, which is now hitting the skies, and also the ageing F-111, which has a far longer reach.

The Raptor's cost, including spares, is likely to be $US110 million a plane, compared with the prospective final cost of the F-35 of $US80 million - but the Raptor has superior capability.

The Chief of the Defence Force, General Peter Cosgrove, told a parliamentary committee late last year that the JSF was "a pretty sure bet".

This prompted the Queensland Labor MP, Arch Bevis, to say: "I would like to make the odds a bit better than the open-ended bet that we have entered into. I think the best-case scenario ... is that ... the Americans will produce an aircraft that largely suits their requirements. Whether or not it suits our requirements is a separate issue."
 
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Part of a larger article based here.......


http://www.aiaa.org/aerospace/Article.cfm?issuetocid=173&ArchiveIssueID=23



What was that price again?
First, although the F-35 (and Boeing’s X-32) development efforts successfully validated many of the project’s technical challenges, the issue of cost remains unresolved. A combat aircraft with the features, capabilities, and weight of the F-35 typically costs at least $50 million, particularly if the U.S. military services follow their historical pattern of making numerous requirements changes along the way. After all, the F-22 began life with a $35-million price goal and now costs over three times as much. And if, for political reasons, Lockheed Martin is forced to share work with a co-prime or with numerous major subcontractors, the price could increase further as production arrangements grow more complicated.


F-16
The technical challenge of designing an affordable plane in this class is not insurmountable. Lockheed Martin builds Block 50 F-16Cs for an advertised price of $25 million, one of the best bargains in the fighter market.

JSF’s target price began at $29 million-$34 million, which also offers tremendous value for money. However, in October 2001, DOD’s Defense Acquisition Board stated that JSF prices were now about $40 million for the CTOL (conventional takeoff and landing) USAF version, while the other versions would cost about $50 million. And because the F-35 is basically a single-engine F-22, there is every prospect it will follow its big brother’s price rise and eventually hit the $65-million mark.

If the F-35’s price increases, much of its competitive advantage will be eroded. This is a cost-sensitive market that resembles a pyramid. In the past two decades, there have been 26 export customers for fighters in the $25-million-$35-million range (F-16, Mirage 2000, Gripen, Harrier). There have been nine export customers for fighters in the $36-million-$45-million range (F/A-18A/B/C/D, and, notionally, Suk-hoi’s Su-27/30). Finally, there have been a mere three export customers for fighters in the $45-million-and-above range (F-15, Tornado).

Similarly, most of the current new, pricey twinjet fighters have been on the market for the past decade. A total of zero export market orders for the Eurofighter, F/A-18E/F, and Rafale have been received. Yet also over the last 10 years, the export market has absorbed over 400 $25-million F-16s, more than 130 $35-million Mirage 2000s, plus several dozen $30-million Gripens and AV-8B+s. In short, customers are still signing contracts for export-priced models, but have balked at going for the big, expensive planes.

What the competition is doing
The F-35’s competitors are not waiting for any of these questions to be resolved. They are pressing ahead with efforts to make their own products more competitive, in terms of quality, industrial involvement, and price.

Predictably, Boeing foresaw the prospect of a JSF loss, and has been improving the F/A-18E/F program as much as possible. It is adding a new active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar into the design, and implementing a cost-cutting campaign. In September 2001, it announced a redesign of the forward fuselage to accommodate the new APG-79 AESA radar and other new systems while simultaneously reducing production costs. The objective price of a Block 2 F/A-18E/F with AESA is now $40 million, a reduction of over $10 million from today’s price.

This cost-cutting and product improvement effort means that the Navy will have a strong incentive to stick with its current plan to acquire about 500 Super Hornets, which would avoid the risk associated with an early transition to F-35 procurement. It also means the F/A-18E/F will remain as competitive as possible (for as long as possible) on the international market. Also, just as important, keeping the F/A-18E/F competitive gives Lockheed Martin an incentive to award Boeing a major F-35 workshare. Lockheed Martin would not want hostile competition from Boeing in every fighter contest, and a major F-35 role could co-opt the latter company. At the very least, it would blunt the efforts of a potential competitive enemy, at home and abroad.


Rafale
Dassault has been pursuing a similar cost-cutting and product improvement effort with the Rafale. The company has begun development work on the F2 and F3 variants, which would also add an AESA. Conformal fuel tanks will enhance the Rafale’s range and payload. While there are no export sales so far, the French government has reemphasized its commitment to the program, having placed firm orders for 61 aircraft.

Most important, the aircraft’s cost rise has been halted, making this fourth-generation model only slightly more expensive than the F/A-18E/F. This is good, because a $60-million plane would not play in Dassault’s traditional markets. The Mirage series were all fine aircraft, but they were also low-cost enough to sell anywhere. The Mirage III/V, F1, and 2000 all received over two-thirds of their orders from export customers. The Rafale was in danger of becoming more of a Mirage 4000 program, which was canceled after it failed to secure a key Saudi order in the 1980s. If the price is $45 million, the Rafale would appeal to a broader market.

The Saab/BAE Gripen competes in almost the same niche as the F-16, and the team has had to make a huge effort to avoid the fate of the preceding Swedish fighter, the Draken. So far, only South Africa has signed on for new-build Gripens, but the upcoming Austrian contest offers considerable hope.


Eurofighter
The Eurofighter/Typhoon team is doing less than the other players to compete on price. Rather, they are emphasizing the benefits of industrial cooperation, offering partnerships to Greece, Norway, and the Netherlands. They have also announced a product improvement program that, curiously, deemphasizes AESA technology. Nevertheless, the Tranche Three Eurofighter could offer a wide variety of new and improved systems.

While there have been no firm export sales so far, the Typhoon team is well aware that its fighter is the only player other than the F-35 to enjoy a substantial domestic market. This home market also provides the certainty that this aircraft will enjoy wide acceptance and numerous upgrade options. Greece still maintains that it is committed to a Eurofighter acquisition, although a purchase decision has been put off until after 2004.

In short, the F-35’s competitors are not waiting for the program’s myriad questions to be answered. They are prepared for the effort to be viable, although a completely successful F-35 program would probably cripple most of them in the long run. But the real problem will begin in the next decade. With a design baseline several decades later than any of the competing aircraft, upgraded versions of the F-35 will make the others look increasingly uncompetitive. So unless Boeing and/or the Europeans unite to develop a fifth-generation follow-on to the current design, they might be forced to exit the business by 2020.

Of course, it is equally possible that a technological revolution arising from missiles, uninhabited combat air vehicles, or spaceplanes could render manned fighters obsolete within a few decades. But then again, predictions of the fighter’s demise have been heard since 1935.
 
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