ISPR saying Indians FM radio along Pak/Afgan border

[Naradmuni]

Originally Posted by zraver
Do you ever wonder why? Or do you just assume its some sort of conspiracy rather than looking into what Pakistan has done to build such ill will.

You have a nation ful of promise that can't quite seem to figure out that it is its own worst enemy. You have nukes, but millions live in poverty. Whole regions of your country were left outside of government control. Designs on Kashmir and parts of Afghanistan, an intelligence service that is at least occasionally rouge/ acting against common sense, blaming everyone else for your failures, endless coups, exporting nuclear secrets, providing sanctuary to terrorists, funding terrorist ops in India, giving the wahabist the ability to set up jihadist madrassas.

For every ill done Pakistan, the wider world can point at two done to it. Fixing Pakistan's problems, really fixing them requires your nation to turn introspective. You need a new national story that isn't focused on the myth of greatness denied. Stress education, not cruise missiles, build the economy not tanks, brig the country under federal control and build a national identity that is first before religion and tribe. Stress and demand accountable government that views peace as a as a victory in itself. These are the type of things Pakistan needs to do to win itself from itself.

Even though you don't boast a flag I can tell that you are Indian from your arguments.
To start with, You guys also have nukes but the largest part of your population lives under the poverty line.
Secondly, we have no designs against Afghanistan, on the contrary, they (Afghanistan) eye our territory (NWFP) as being rightfully theirs.
Thirdly, the ISI is not "ROUGE", thats what India wants us to think.
Quatro, If we organize terrorist activities in India, you guys are not too far behind, if you stopped funding the Taliban, they would cease to exist, no terrorists, no terrorism.
You talk about disarmament, why doesn't India set an example for us to follow, tell you what, you have problem with Tanks and Cruise Missiles ? No problem, You scrap yours and we will follow suit.
Pretty fair deal i think..........................

But unlike Pak, India is not on the verge of being a failed state.
You cant counter prescribe your doctor to take "your" medicine. I believe you did not get the essence of the argument posted by zraver.

 

[StingRoy]

Pakistan is a key part of the war in Afghanistan. If you don't want lectures on your problems, then fix them so they stop killing my countrymen.

I second zraver. Anyways, lets give the Pak govt some credit for their operations now in Waziristan, although this should have been done way back.
US should have launched simultaneous operations in Afghanistan and Pakistan which would have brought this operation to a successful result way back. With these ungoverned areas providing safe haven to the Al Qaeda and Taliban, it was a launch pad for the cowardly attacks everywhere in the world. All these years Pakistan has been denying that it is supporting terrorists... but the fact remains that by not controlling the western areas, and not being able to stop the infiltration of the Afghans from its northern borders (see the number of illegal 'foreigners' caught in the raids), they indirectly supported this activity and allowed the issue to grow out of hands to a point where it started to affect their own lives.

 

[Socialholic]

hello ppl
this is my first reply on this particular forum!

i have been reading everyones reply!...and im surprised with ppl replyin from different parts of the world how can they forget it take's centuries to build a nation, you cant point at prblms and think they gona vanish just like that neither would they gona dissappear themself it takes time, effort and PEACE! which unfortunatly we Pakistani are desperatly need of.

As for ppl who are pointing at us, need to look at there own history of civil wars and democarcy it took you guys yrs to get to a point of super power and now u all now the rest

and as for our neighbours we didnt had pens or papers when pakistan was built what we did we did ....but guess what we are proud of it . And we didnt get everything up n runing to take care of when Pakistan wasa made unlike some we have to come along way to be where we are!

No Offense meant to anyone!

 

[SMC]

Pakistan is a key part of the war in Afghanistan. If you don't want lectures on your problems, then fix them so they stop killing my countrymen.

Please, the history of Taliban does not start in 2001. Look back at your own policies before telling which problem belongs to whom.

 

[SMC]

You have nukes, but millions live in poverty.

And 36 million in US live in poverty. Pot calling kettle black?

Whole regions of your country were left outside of government control.

You do not understand the structure of FATA and people living there. In this case, everything is black and white to you and thus it's not something worth discussing with you.

Designs on Kashmir and parts of Afghanistan, an intelligence service that is at least occasionally rouge/ acting against common sense,

Huh, rouge? If you think they are acting against common sense, there must be a reason why.

blaming everyone else for your failures,

Please, Pakistanis are some of the most self-critical people in the world. When the state blames someone, they are usually true. For instance, only thing they've blamed is India's funding of terrorism, which is true as people within the ISI and the army would confirm the existance of proof of such.

endless coups,

Which have resulted in best growth for Pakistan. It's not necessarily a bad thing. If civilian government sinks the country, someone has to stop them.

exporting nuclear secrets,

Not done by the state.

providing sanctuary to terrorists,

Only sanctuary was provided to freedom fighters fighting Indian occupation of Kashmir.

funding terrorist ops in India,

Read above

giving the wahabist the ability to set up jihadist madrassas.

You don't know what you're talking about here.

Stress education, not cruise missiles,

Huh? That's a really pathetic argument. Cruise missile is for self-defence, and it's not being "stressed".

build the economy not tanks,

And we were doing so in a very good way until the global recession came. Pakistan had 6-8% growth for several consecutive years.

brig the country under federal control

Yes, agreed.

and build a national identity that is first before religion and tribe.

Live your own way and let others live their way.

 

[SMC]

US should have launched simultaneous operations in Afghanistan and Pakistan which would have brought this operation to a successful result way back. With these ungoverned areas providing safe haven to the Al Qaeda and Taliban, it was a launch pad for the cowardly attacks everywhere in the world.

US can barely do anything about terrorists in Afghanistan, forget Pakistan.

All these years Pakistan has been denying that it is supporting terrorists...

No, it's your paranoia and conspiracy theories that make you believe this.

but the fact remains that by not controlling the western areas, and not being able to stop the infiltration of the Afghans from its northern borders (see the number of illegal 'foreigners' caught in the raids), they indirectly supported this activity and allowed the issue to grow out of hands to a point where it started to affect their own lives.

Well tell me how do you propose to stop the infiltration.

Additionally, it's funny that it's Pakistan's problem in both cases if terrorists infiltrate from Pakistan into Afghanistan AND if they infiltrate from Afghanistan to PAkistan.

 

[boxer_B]

and also brought the Kashmir issue to lime light which was the ultimate goal of the mission.

Couldn't resist in replying to this comment but quoting your own sources and wiki.


Faced with the possibility of international isolation, the already fragile Pakistani economy was weakened further.The morale of Pakistani forces after the withdrawal declined as many units of the Northern Light Infantry suffered heavy casualties.The government refused to acknowledge the dead bodies of many officers, an issue that provoked outrage and protests in the Northern Areas. Pakistan initially did not acknowledge many of its casualties, but Sharif later said that over 4,000 Pakistani troops were killed in the operation and that Pakistan had lost the conflict..

Many in Pakistan had expected a victory over the Indian military based on Pakistani official reports on the war, but were dismayed by the turn of events and questioned the eventual retreat.[26].The military leadership is believed to have felt let down by the prime minister's decision to withdraw the remaining fighters. However, some authors, including ex-CENTCOM Commander Anthony Zinni, and ex-PM Nawaz Sharif, state that it was General Musharraf who requested Sharif to withdraw the Pakistani troops.. With Sharif placing the onus of the Kargil attacks squarely on the army chief Pervez Musharraf, there was an atmosphere of uneasiness between the two. On October 12, 1999, General Musharraf staged a bloodless coup d'état, ousting Nawaz Sharif.

Benazir Bhutto, an opposition leader and former prime minister, called the Kargil War "Pakistan's greatest blunder". Many ex-officials of the military and the ISI (Pakistan's principal intelligence agency) also believed that "Kargil was a waste of time" and "could not have resulted in any advantage" on the larger issue of Kashmir.. A retired Pakistani Army General, Lt Gen Ali Kuli Khan, lambasted the war as "a disaster bigger than the East Pakistan tragedy",adding that the plan was "flawed in terms of its conception, tactical planning and execution" that ended in "sacrificing so many soldiers." The Pakistani media criticized the whole plan and the eventual climbdown from the Kargil heights since there were no gains to show for the loss of lives and it only resulted in international condemnation.

Despite calls by many, no public commission of inquiry was set up in Pakistan to investigate the people responsible for initiating the conflict. The PML(N) published a white paper in 2006, which stated that Nawaz Sharif constituted an inquiry committee that recommended a court martial for General Pervez Musharraf, but Musharraf "stole the report" after toppling the government, to save himself. The report also claims that India knew about the plan 11 months before its launch, enabling a complete victory for India on military, diplomatic and economic fronts.

Though the Kargil conflict had brought the Kashmir dispute into international focus – which was one of the aims of Pakistan – it had done so in negative circumstances that eroded its credibility, since the infiltration came just after a peace process between the two countries was underway. The sanctity of the LOC too received international recognition. President Clinton's move to ask Islamabad to withdraw hundreds of armed militants from Indian-administered Kashmir was viewed by many in Pakistan as indicative of a clear shift in US policy against Pakistan.

One U.S. Intelligence study is reported to have stated that Kargil was yet another example of Pakistan’s (lack of) grand strategy, repeating the follies of the previous wars.

Diplomatic Fiasco: Pakistan's Failure on the Diplomatic Front Nullifies its Gains on the Battlefield - Harvard - Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs

Salon Feature | Coup d'tat: Pakistan gets a new sheriff

A Friend for all Seasons - Harvard - Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs

The Hindu : Over 4,000 soldiers killed in Kargil: Sharif

Pakistani opposition presses for Sharif's resignation

farjinews: Kargil Was Success Only For Pervez

'Kargil a bigger disaster than East Pakistan' - dnaindia.com

DAWN - Ayaz Amir Corner; 09 July, 1999

PML-N issues white paper on Kargil operation

BBC News | South Asia | Analysis: Shift in US Kashmir stance?

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

Still, whether or not Pakistan wants to know the truth about the Operation, the world will go on examining the thinking behind it and the actual fallout of it on Pakistan’s foreign policy and regional status. General Javed Hassan, one of the key players on our side, has written a glowing book on it, just as one Pakistani academic in the service of the government. Half a dozen Indian generals have also presented their military perspective. But international opinion is negative on the professional soundness of the Operation. One American intelligence study states that Kargil was yet another example of Pakistan’s (lack of) grand strategy as it repeated the 1965 and 1971 war scenarios without support from the international community. Kargil was unprecedented in the history of Indo-Pakistan ‘violent peace’ in Kashmir in terms of its rapidity and the degree of India’s counter-response. The study concludes that Kargil confirmed for India Pakistan’s identity as a reckless, adventurist, ‘risk-acceptant’, untrustworthy state, spearheaded by a military that controlled the state. It blunted India’s inclination to resolve the Kashmir issue with Pakistan as a party to the dispute.

Kargil also pricked the bubble of Pakistan’s self-induced triumphalism over its ‘moral cause’. The government of Nawaz Sharif did not get the expected support on Kargil from China despite visits by foreign minister Sartaj Aziz and the prime minister himself. The army was forced to deploy a ‘rhetoric of peace’ with India, offering ceasefires and partial withdrawals of troops from the border. In the end, it may be argued that Kargil may have affected Pakistan’s military policy-makers in a profound manner and contributed to a long overdue paradigm shift in Pakistan’s thinking about the region and the world.

Honestly, what is your job or role in this world? Your sec of state agrees that screwed up in Afg after USSR left, your President agrees and apologized for leaving Pakistan alone to face the out come, therefore, I will take their word over yours.

Wow, Pakistan DIDNOT wanted USSR to capture AF owing to India's old ally. US helped you to kick USSR out of AF and now you conveniently blame all plethora of Taliban allegation on US. It was more of your interest to seal USSR fate in AF as it would have been impossible for pakistan to open war on two fonts.

and this is why Kashmiris in the Ocupppied Kashmir celeberate 14th of Augu? Or this is why people burn indian flags on 15th of August.

In case you missed it.

Huge anti-Pak protests in Azad Kashmir, violence erupts

Article

Azad Kashmir leaders want merger with India Kashmir the war of Mind and Brains

 

[zraver]

And 36 million in US live in poverty. Pot calling kettle black?

I don't know where you got that number, but lets assume its true thats about 1 in 9 people as compared to 1 in 4 for Pakistan.

Even then there are degrees of poverty. Probalby 99% of American have access to clean water, electricity on demand, of around 300 million citizens we have 251 million registered cars or more than 2 per family. The same cannot be said about Pakistan's poor.

You do not understand the structure of FATA and people living there. In this case, everything is black and white to you and thus it's not something worth discussing with you.

Its a tribal society and the real power is vested in the hands of the tribe not the central government. Pakistan chose to leave this system in place when the British left. However unlike the British that could use tribal politics to divide and rule, a strong Pakistan needs the power vested in the government not the tribes.

Huh, rouge? If you think they are acting against common sense, there must be a reason why.

group think and ideology, not rational actor, bureaucratic model or organizational model.

Please, Pakistanis are some of the most self-critical people in the world.

You'd never know that from reading these boards. The lets ix Pakistan crowd of Pakistanis is drowned out by the lets blame every one else crowd.

When the state blames someone, they are usually true. For instance, only thing they've blamed is India's funding of terrorism, which is true as people within the ISI and the army would confirm the existance of proof of such.

Sorry if thier word alone isn't good enough for the rest of us.

Which have resulted in best growth for Pakistan. It's not necessarily a bad thing. If civilian government sinks the country, someone has to stop them.

You traded that growth for heightened hostilities with India, isolated yourselves from your oldest ally and saw your frontier provinces fall to a religious movement.... real success story there.

Not done by the state.

When we catch someone selling nuclear secrets we put them away form years, we do not put them under house arrest and celebrate them as a national hero.

Only sanctuary was provided to freedom fighters fighting Indian occupation of Kashmir.

BS, without Pakistani sanctuary the Taliban would have been defeated in 2001 and the TTP would never have formed.

You don't know what you're talking about here.

Asia Times Online - The best news coverage from South Asia

Huh? That's a really pathetic argument. Cruise missile is for self-defence, and it's not being "stressed".

Tell me, whose killed more Pakistanis- the big bad Indian military or the TTP? To get the type of extremism that will embrace suicide bombers you need a radical ideology (see above about the madrassas) and grinding poverty. More investment in things like power generation, all weather roads, secular schools, hospitals etc in the frontier regions might well have short circuited the entire process that began decades ago and is now a full blown insurgency.

And we were doing so in a very good way until the global recession came. Pakistan had 6-8% growth for several consecutive years.

US leaves in the 90's and Pakistan's economy tanks, US comes back after 2001 and Pakistans economy grows= see-saw or yo-yo that growth was do to the US via aid, access to markets and credits.

Live your own way and let others live their way.

absolutely, until their way calls for my way of life to end. Once its a them or us paradigm- kill them all and survival of the fittest.

 

[SMC]

I don't know where you got that number, but lets assume its true thats about 1 in 9 people as compared to 1 in 4 for Pakistan.

Even then there are degrees of poverty. Probalby 99% of American have access to clean water, electricity on demand, of around 300 million citizens we have 251 million registered cars or more than 2 per family. The same cannot be said about Pakistan's poor.

This is from US government data stating 12% of Americans live in poverty.

As for the rest, why target Pakistan specifically. Nukes were absolutely necessary for Pakistan when india did the test. And everything you mentioned can be applied to india as well. Why targetting Pakistan specifically when other countries fall in the same category?

Its a tribal society and the real power is vested in the hands of the tribe not the central government. Pakistan chose to leave this system in place when the British left. However unlike the British that could use tribal politics to divide and rule, a strong Pakistan needs the power vested in the government not the tribes.

The tribal people are resistant to any outsiders. Leave they alone living in their semi-autonomous place as long as they do not cause problems to others. That was policy for most part of Pakistan's existance. Now that has changed so that's why in some places of FATA government has to have control. We saw this in Bajaur previously, and to lesser extent in Mohamand, Kurram and Khyber, and now in SW. Every where else government has control.

You'd never know that from reading these boards. The lets ix Pakistan crowd of Pakistanis is drowned out by the lets blame every one else crowd.

Yes there are some people like that in Pakistan. But they exist everywhere. But the amount of criticism Pakistanis make on Pakistan is probably unmatched.

Sorry if thier word alone isn't good enough for the rest of us.

Well either way, they have good reason to believe indian involvement and thus the blame is justified.

You traded that growth for heightened hostilities with India, isolated yourselves from your oldest ally and saw your frontier provinces fall to a religious movement.... real success story there.

Hostilities towards india remained the same whether in civilian or miliary government. Same with isolation (btw oldest ally is China). And again no difference at the last one.

When we catch someone selling nuclear secrets we put them away form years, we do not put them under house arrest and celebrate them as a national hero.

Well how you may like it or not, he helped Pakistan gained something important so it's just not easy to put him away. It may be in US national interest, but not in Pakistan.

BS, without Pakistani sanctuary the Taliban would have been defeated in 2001 and the TTP would never have formed.

They control large parts (upto 70% of Afghanistan even today). How can you say, considering that, that they would have been defeated.

Asia Times Online - The best news coverage from South Asia

Whatever extremist ones that exist need to be taken down, and I support that. But to blanket all of them as extremist is extreme itself.

Tell me, whose killed more Pakistanis- the big bad Indian military or the TTP? To get the type of extremism that will embrace suicide bombers you need a radical ideology (see above about the madrassas) and grinding poverty. More investment in things like power generation, all weather roads, secular schools, hospitals etc in the frontier regions might well have short circuited the entire process that began decades ago and is now a full blown insurgency.

Again, it's a ridiculous argument. Apples and oranges. Cruise missile is a necessity. The education needs to be worked on big time yes. I am one of the biggest supporter of education reforms. But just because of that we cannot leave defence hanging when the neighbouring country is buying 200+ MKIs, has several hundred thousand troops on your border, has a cruise missile itself, etc.

US leaves in the 90's and Pakistan's economy tanks, US comes back after 2001 and Pakistans economy grows= see-saw or yo-yo that growth was do to the US via aid, access to markets and credits.

US didn't help Pakistan during Ayub era of enormous growth. What you're talking about is a mere coincidence. It's a difference between corrupt politicans and a military government.

absolutely, until their way calls for my way of life to end. Once its a them or us paradigm- kill them all and survival of the fittest.

Don't think they are saying you to end your way of life. They just want US/NATO out of Afghanistan, that's about it.

 

[zraver]

As for the rest, why target Pakistan specifically. Nukes were absolutely necessary for Pakistan when india did the test. And everything you mentioned can be applied to india as well. Why targetting Pakistan specifically when other countries fall in the same category?

How many nukes has India dropped on Pakistan?

The tribal people are resistant to any outsiders. Leave they alone living in their semi-autonomous place as long as they do not cause problems to others. That was policy for most part of Pakistan's existance. Now that has changed so that's why in some places of FATA government has to have control. We saw this in Bajaur previously, and to lesser extent in Mohamand, Kurram and Khyber, and now in SW. Every where else government has control.

we see how well leaving them alone worked out.

Hostilities towards india remained the same whether in civilian or miliary government. Same with isolation (btw oldest ally is China). And again no difference at the last one.

Your oldest ally is the US not China. Pakistan joined SEATO and CENTO in 1952 ans signed a mutal assistance treaty with the US in 54.

Well how you may like it or not, he helped Pakistan gained something important so it's just not easy to put him away. It may be in US national interest, but not in Pakistan.

selling state secrets is not in Pakistan's interest.

They control large parts (upto 70% of Afghanistan even today). How can you say, considering that, that they would have been defeated.

They didn't in 2001-03 safe haven in Pakistan allowed them to rebuild.

Whatever extremist ones that exist need to be taken down, and I support that. But to blanket all of them as extremist is extreme itself.

I am talking about the 1 in 5 that preaches war on everyone who does not agree with them.

Again, it's a ridiculous argument. Apples and oranges. Cruise missile is a necessity. The education needs to be worked on big time yes. I am one of the biggest supporter of education reforms. But just because of that we cannot leave defence hanging when the neighbouring country is buying 200+ MKIs, has several hundred thousand troops on your border, has a cruise missile itself, etc.

How many times has India invaded Pakistan? 0 is how many. What could India possibly want with Pakistan? India has been invaded by Pakistan, has no formal allies and is sandwiched between 2 nuclear powers. Her defense needs are quite a bit more severe than Pakistans.

US didn't help Pakistan during Ayub era of enormous growth. What you're talking about is a mere coincidence. It's a difference between corrupt politicans and a military government.

Your bringing up an era 50 years ago. Look a little more recently.

Don't think they are saying you to end your way of life. They just want US/NATO out of Afghanistan, that's about it.

The US wasn't in Afghanistan or Arabia when planes slammed into buildings. We were brought back to the region against our will. Those attackers transited Pakistan, their leader now shelters there, and many of them were educated there.

 

[Barrett]

How many times has India invaded Pakistan? 0 is how many. What could India possibly want with Pakistan? India has been invaded by Pakistan, has no formal allies and is sandwiched between 2 nuclear powers. Her defense needs are quite a bit more severe than Pakistans.

Are u dreaming ? India attacked Pakistan on 6th of Sep 1965 by crossing the International Border, with dreams of having Tea in Lahore Gymkhana.

The US wasn't in Afghanistan or Arabia when planes slammed into buildings. We were brought back to the region against our will. Those attackers transited Pakistan, their leader now shelters there, and many of them were educated there.

Afghanistan attacked US on 9/11 the same way Iraq had "Weapons Of Mass Destruction" ? For heavens Sake.... US has not been able to provide any credible evidence for the 9/11 attacks ...Yet invaded a country and killed more then a million... the leaders were given shelter and education with US money only...and yes selling state secrets is not in Pakistan's interest but it sure is in US interests when they sell them to israel

 

[MastanKhan]

Even though you don't boast a flag I can tell that you are Indian from your arguments.



Hi,

You missed it---there are a few american soldiers on this board here who would want to put the blame of their incompetence and impotence on the pak millitary. It was due to the screw ups of their generals and sec def that american forces are mired deep in mud---and pak army being their favourite whipping boy, becomes an unwitting target.

It is the same old story of the americans---the paks will always be blamed for american blunders---did you not know that no army has succesfully captured afg---did you not know that afgns sell the info to the highest bidder---did you not know that afgns take money from one side, create a cease fire to let them escape---did you not know that afgns target their opponents and give wrong info to usaf for air strikes to kill the personal enemies---did you not know that you cannot subjugate the afgns---did you not know that the afgns just fight---for the sake of battle---live or die---doesn't mean much---to die in combat is more pleasurable to them.

The americans were really really ignorant---they thought that they were going and conquering some european country or something like japan---when the locals find out that they cannot win---they will lay their arms down and live happily ever after like the cowards that the japanese have become or the germans have become---.

But they forgot that these are the goat herders that they are going to fight----.

Isn't it ironic----or you can call it the justice of the GOD---the world super power is being thrashed by a goat herders and peasants army----when the superstar army cannot move out of its encampment without air cover---and here we have ex--retd army personale being desk jockeys---only if the wars would have been won by the rhetoric of donald rumsfeld and tommy franks and john abezaid and dick chenny and the born again christian alliance or the ex u s army pak army bashers---yes blame it again on pakistan.

Let me share something with you ZRAVER---muslims ruled india for close to 600---800 years----a very small minority of muslims---at one time maybe 2 % of the population was ruling over 98 % POPULATION---and at times the rule was extremely brutal to the subjugated class---in he same manner that you subjugated your american indian natives---at one time or other---india and indians will seek their revenge on us and try to annihilate us---that is a given---not today or tomorrow but definitely day after tomorrow---so we have no love lost over here.

India and us---we will be at war with each other in due time---a major clash---there is no ifs and buts about it---they only need one Radovan Karadjzic---they could have done it ---but the problem is that the indians cremate their dead---so there are no bones buried deep to be dug out of the graves and waved around to spread hatred.

Instead of confronting us over here, you need to confront your generals and ex sec def at home for not doing the job.

 

[pakdefender]

Even though you don't boast a flag I can tell that you are Indian from your arguments.



Hi,

You missed it---there are a few american soldiers on this board here who would want to put the blame of their incompetence and impotence on the pak millitary. It was due to the screw ups of their generals and sec def that american forces are mired deep in mud---and pak army being their favourite whipping boy, becomes an unwitting target.

It is the same old story of the americans---the paks will always be blamed for american blunders---did you not know that no army has succesfully captured afg---did you not know that afgns sell the info to the highest bidder---did you not know that afgns take money from one side, create a cease fire to let them escape---did you not know that afgns target their opponents and give wrong info to usaf for air strikes to kill the personal enemies---did you not know that you cannot subjugate the afgns---did you not know that the afgns just fight---for the sake of battle---live or die---doesn't mean much---to die in combat is more pleasurable to them.

The americans were really really ignorant---they thought that they were going and conquering some european country or something like japan---when the locals find out that they cannot win---they will lay their arms down and live happily ever after like the cowards that the japanese have become or the germans have become---.

But they forgot that these are the goat herders that they are going to fight----.

Isn't it ironic----or you can call it the justice of the GOD---the world super power is being thrashed by a goat herders and peasants army----when the superstar army cannot move out of its encampment without air cover---and here we have ex--retd army personale being desk jockeys---only if the wars would have been won by the rhetoric of donald rumsfeld and tommy franks and john abezaid and dick chenny and the born again christian alliance or the ex u s army pak army bashers---yes blame it again on pakistan.

Let me share something with you ZRAVER---muslims ruled india for close to 600---800 years----a very small minority of muslims---at one time maybe 2 % of the population was ruling over 98 % POPULATION---and at times the rule was extremely brutal to the subjugated class---in he same manner that you subjugated your american indian natives---at one time or other---india and indians will seek their revenge on us and try to annihilate us---that is a given---not today or tomorrow but definitely day after tomorrow---so we have no love lost over here.

India and us---we will be at war with each other in due time---a major clash---there is no ifs and buts about it---they only need one Radovan Karadjzic---they could have done it ---but the problem is that the indians cremate their dead---so there are no bones buried deep to be dug out of the graves and waved around to spread hatred.

Instead of confronting us over here, you need to confront your generals and ex sec def at home for not doing the job.

It couldnt have been said better, every word every sentence. Thanks

 

[was]

Pakistan is a key part of the war in Afghanistan. If you don't want lectures on your problems, then fix them so they stop killing my countrymen.

and you fix yours so they stop killing my countrymen

 

[SMC]

How many nukes has India dropped on Pakistan?

The same question can be turned back. The point is nuclear weapons are minimum deterrent in case other nation also has them.

we see how well leaving them alone worked out.

You have to leave them alone. They do not want outsider interference obviously. Let them live their way as long as they do not bother with you. They did not bother with anyone else either until US came knocking in 2001 because of the false-flag operation little earlier.

Your oldest ally is the US not China. Pakistan joined SEATO and CENTO in 1952 ans signed a mutal assistance treaty with the US in 54.

The notion of an ally is not as simple as you imply.

selling state secrets is not in Pakistan's interest.

The people of Pakistan will not see a national hero being prosecuted and jailed. Musharraf was locked in a very tough decision so he had to take the middle ground.

They didn't in 2001-03 safe haven in Pakistan allowed them to rebuild.

Yes, they did. In 2001-03 US wasn't really concentrated on Afghanistan and rather Iraq.

I am talking about the 1 in 5 that preaches war on everyone who does not agree with them.

Don't really think they preach war against anyone who does not agree with them. Rather anyone who interefers in their country. Nonetheless, I agree that these Jihadi madresshas have to be taken down. I do not know of any progress on this issue except a lot of madressahs known for preaching hate were anything but preaching hate.

How many times has India invaded Pakistan? 0 is how many. What could India possibly want with Pakistan? India has been invaded by Pakistan, has no formal allies and is sandwiched between 2 nuclear powers. Her defense needs are quite a bit more severe than Pakistans.

Pakistan never invaded an international border, while india did. What could they want from Pakistan? What did they want from Pakistan in 1971, and in 1965 Lahore attack?

Additionally, all these big deal about defence spending in Pakistan is just a bunch of nonsense. Pakistan spends no more than what almost all countries do. The defence budget is 3-4bn in Pakistan. In US it's 600 something bn. By the same logic you were mentioning,
US could help its high school drop outs, 12% of people in poverty through some of that money.

Your bringing up an era 50 years ago. Look a little more recently.

The argument still applies. Pakistan had enormous growth in the 1960s. The US aid of a mere 10bn (btw Pakistan has spent about 40bn on the war so the aid cancels out and then becomes negative) is not enough to develop economy. The policies have to be there.

The US wasn't in Afghanistan or Arabia when planes slammed into buildings. We were brought back to the region against our will. Those attackers transited Pakistan, their leader now shelters there, and many of them were educated there.

The attackers also learnt to fly some paper planes and that was enough for them to fly jumbo jets. US also found their passports among the rubble which was 'concrete' evidence of their involvement. WTC 7 falling is also explained very poorly and unconvincingly and overall there was very little coverage of that. Sorry, I don't buy the story.