ISMC Announces Setting Up Of India's First Semiconductor Fab In Karnataka At An Investment Of $3 Billion

[Wiler87]

What was your question to Prashant ?

Scroll up and read it for yourself.

 

[jamahir]

Scroll up and read it for yourself.

No, please explain to me.

 

[pikkuboss]

Actually manufacturing and fabrication of semiconductors is not much of an employment generator.

As I said, Semiconductor itself isn't a money maker but it's an enabler for other sectors associated with it. Today even after imposing duties on import of electronics, we are still Importing them because we don't have many things that enables electronics manufacturing.

Design is to an extent but then it is very similar to software engineering in that regard as fabless companies licensing IP exist in abundance. There are already quite a few of these with Tata Elixie comes to mind.

Our focus on Designing should be moving up the value chain that is our own designs with our own companies and brand name. We need more and more start-ups in this sector.

Honestly, thats not a must. What you need are sources of sustained export revenue to offset any import bill and keep balance of trade typically positive. Look at how Rawanda did exactly that.

We already have trade deficit, our country has enough land for edible oil still we are importing most of it. We should domesticate everything that is possible to be fulfilled domestically and which we can't domesticate like petroleum oil, we should eliminate them with alternative technologies.

"Most Indian engineers are not the intuitive/innovative kind." ?

How many have you met ?

It's not like we don't have them. It's that those who are capable move out to foreign countries. We should incentivise them to come back to India after gaining experience. We must create an environment which is suitable for retaining those talents. If a semiconductor Fab is set up in India, many experts will come to India and those who will come would be mostly Indians who were working overseas for gaining experience.

 

[Wiler87]

No, please explain to me.

Why ?

 

[jamahir]

Design is to an extent but then it is very similar to software engineering in that regard as fabless companies licensing IP exist in abundance. There are already quite a few of these with Tata Elixie comes to mind.

Our focus on Designing should be moving up the value chain that is our own designs with our own companies and brand name. We need more and more start-ups in this sector.

What do Tata Elxsi and other fabless companies in India design ?

 

[pikkuboss]

What do Tata Elxsi and other fabless companies in India design ?

That's why I said our focus now should be moving up the value chain and creating more and more start-ups in this sector with incentives.

 

[HydraChess]

As I said, Semiconductor itself isn't a money maker but it's an enabler for other sectors associated with it. Today even after imposing duties on import of electronics, we are still Importing them because we don't have many things that enables electronics manufacturing.

Its a cow and a milk thing. Should you buy a cow if you can buy just milk and thats what you need? I think India right now can do fine with importing chips and building products out of them --like phones, laptops, TVs. "Cow" here is REALLY expensive, needs lot of water and needs recurrent expense.

The reason you hear these "Lets get Semiconductor Industry" has more to do with becoming sanction resistant. But thats a 50 year project or more. Even China after pouring 100s of billon dollars in it is not able to achive it.

 

[Wiler87]

It's not like we don't have them. It's that those who are capable move out to foreign countries. We should incentivise them to come back to India after gaining experience. We must create an environment which is suitable for retaining those talents. If a semiconductor Fab is set up in India, many experts will come to India and those who will come would be mostly Indians who were working overseas for gaining experience.

Necessity is the mother of Invention.

When we need them, they will deliver. Environment always help, but it will always be need driven.

In Global innovation Index, India has moved up from 76th rank in 2014 to 46th Rank in 2021.

We are consistently climbing up the list. Rome was not built in a day.

Global Innovation Index | Make In India

Witness India's FDI growth: From Make in India's launch till March 2019, shaping Auto, Electrical Machinery and Textiles. Auto grew 25.54%, Electrical Machinery soared 242%, and Textiles maintained a 5.02% CAGR

www.makeinindia.com

Its a cow and a milk thing. Should you buy a cow if you can buy just milk and thats what you need? I think India right now can do fine with importing chips and building products out of them --like phones, laptops, TVs. "Cow" here is REALLY expensive, needs lot of water and needs recurrent expense.

The reason you hear these "Lets get Semiconductor Industry" has more to do with becoming sanction resistant. But thats a 50 year project or more. Even China after pouring 100s of billon dollars in it is not able to achive it.

Its important we have our foot in this industry.

So that when the next big thing happens in this industry we will be ready to take full advantage of it.

Just like we were prepared in Nuclear and Space industry.

 

[INS_Vikrant]

The reason you hear these "Lets get Semiconductor Industry" has more to do with becoming sanction resistant. But thats a 50 year project or more. Even China after pouring 100s of billon dollars in it is not able to achive it.

Even after setting up fabs we won't be western sanctions resistant as most major chip manufacturing machines and equipments are made and supplied by western companies like ASML without them even giants of semiconductor industry like TSMC and Samsung can't do much if sanctioned by west

 

[jamahir]

Even after setting up fabs we won't be western sanctions resistant as most major chip manufacturing machines and equipments are made and supplied by western companies like ASML without them even giants of semiconductor industry like TSMC and Samsung can't do much if sanctioned by west

Towards that idea China is researching new materials and paradigms like graphene and photonics to fabricate processors and other semiconductors which will require new kind of fabrication machinery thus eliminating dependency on ASML.

 

[HydraChess]

Even after setting up fabs we won't be western sanctions resistant as most major chip manufacturing machines and equipments are made and supplied by western companies like ASML without them even giants of semiconductor industry like TSMC and Samsung can't do much if sanctioned by west

Its not just that. MASSIVE and very expensive softwares are needed for semiconductor manufacturing and design processes. Thing like synthesis tools, place and route tools, validatation tools, power estimation tools, simulation tools and what not. ALL of those are american ones. It will take 50 years to develop all of those.

 

[jamahir]

@pikkuboss @HydraChess, post #55

 

[HydraChess]

Towards that idea China is researching new materials and paradigms like graphene and photonics to fabricate processors and other semiconductors which will require new kind of fabrication machinery thus eliminating dependency on ASML.

Leave even that. China will have to develop a basic logic and more advanced behavioural synthesis tools / softwares first to make themselves independent of USA. Then there are FPGA platforms for pre-silicon validation.. I doubt Chinese have a real massive FPGA company like Xilinx (now part of AMD, AFAIK) and Altera (now part of Intel AFAIK). Then they need validation tools likes those from Mentor Graphics. And this is just scratching the surface. Semiconductor is COMPLEX and COMPLICATED and China will have to start from scratch. Material is just one part of it... though important.

I have not even touched VAST IP libraries that likes of TSMC, Samsung, Global Foundaries have.

 

[prashantazazel]

"Most Indian engineers are not the intuitive/innovative kind." ?

How many have you met ?

Many, dude. I have lived in Delhi, Bangalore and many other major cities.
Now don't make me criticise point wise on an international forum.

 

[jamahir]

Leave even that. China will have to develop a basic logic and more advanced behavioural synthesis tools / softwares first to make themselves independent of USA. Then there are FPGA platforms for pre-silicon validation.. I doubt Chinese have a real massive FPGA company like Xilinx (now part of AMD, AFAIK) and Altera (now part of Intel AFAIK). Then they need validation tools likes those from Mentor Graphics. And this is just scratching the surface. Semiconductor is COMPLEX and COMPLICATED and China will have to start from scratch. Material is just one part of it... though important.

I have not even touched VAST IP libraries that likes of TSMC, Samsung, Global Foundaries have.

In context of my project I don't know what is a validation tool but from what I know the Xilinx software called Vivado used to program Xilinx FPGAs costs around five lakhs and the FPGA board itself ranges from more than a lakh to 10 lakhs depending on the sophistication and facilities on the board. A startup company that designs a processor will not need more than one installation of that software and not more than one board. I am sure there are enough installations of Xilinx FPGAs locked into enough Xilinx Vivado softwares in China and this would be for prototyping and I think these installations can be disconnected from the internet to prevent Xilinx from disabling the software.

The actual chip could be, as I said, produced in non-silicon forms or non-fully-silicon forms like graphene and photonics which China is researching on and for these the software tools for production needs will of course have to be adopted from open source means or developed anew. But what are the IP libraries you speak of and will they be applicable in a production environment where the materials and paradigms are different ? Please read this article about a NASA research as of 2014 about bringing back of the vacuum tube transistor concept to nano scale miniaturization which the research found the transistor resistant to radiation and to work ( switch ) at 460 GHz ! Seems this transistor has to be fabricated using MEMS fabrication technique so it is possible that the software toolchain will need to be customized to this in addition to using open source software.