Islam, Pakistan and other people's image, our faults and so on!

[EnidZaini]

First of all , as a Pakistani and as a human these are certain things I want to share with people.

As a person I acknowledge all goods&bads of my country ,my own self and so on!

I understand that yes every one thinks we Pakistanis are extremists and even if certain people try to persuade it seems as if its all a tyranny and unreal! Right?
But people it's not compulsory that were there is bad there is no good. Every person has a habit
to blame others and even if I say you know my country people are like this and this but it's wrong first it's everyone's duty to correct himself when you've done you help other through your behaviour.

Honestly neither have I ever thought bad of India , it's a great country and when we are together
the whole world could be in our control or at least we can be in great use of each other but all our
Leaders are synonymous with treachery by USA or any other external power but we did have an
excellent leader " Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto" he made us a nuclear power, and he good relationships with India signing the world bank and so on. But Zia ul haq was synonymous with treachery by
USA which lead in Zulfiqar's execution.
When British came to sub-continent what did they started
making hindus and muslims fight. There is no religion until humanity is there.


Pakistan has great talents but they are not unbringed, only some are.
Two of our country's children took 24 subs and scored 22 A's and 23 A's but how huge was this
taken!

Education

We have a strategy in number of our schools whether they provide good education or not but to
forcefully guide children to upbring there talents while in Europe a children who is a genius is
the only one they take ahead.

But an only way to a good life here and then onwards after life is to be modest , in medium and
not blaming others.
Sari Insaan ki baat hoti hai yeh nahi ke banda shuru ho jai mere pass ye nahi hai or woh nahi hai.

We Pakistanis are no extremists and no taliban. Media is negatively bias towards us.

Islam allows dance singing, music everything except for ill treating, killing , being bias, or
being unkind.
Now however if people try making are image bad then we are not wrong though might be are
political leaders do certain actions and things which brings bad but either they are synonymous
with treachery in league of the American or any body else.

England was earlier also a non-ethical and non - flourished country one with less education but at that time certain of Muslims were flourishing but soon the British realised here wrongs and they followed the Muslims but some non-ethical people who though didn't like Islam joined as then it
was easier to conquer lands. Which is why some extremists and non-ethical things have ended up into Islam.
Quran is not only for Muslims , but you can find science, maths and everything else.
We are even not allowed to say that you know this religion is wrong or to make bad things out.
Quran is a complete code of life not only based on religion but life too.

 

[haviZsultan]

Our fault is basically being intolerant to other religions and not giving our own people full rights. Right to education, right to healthcare, right to speak indigenous languages.

No matter how we set our foreign policy, hell even if we go to war with the US, we need unity within. We need to give our own people rights and ensure our own people are all equal. No Muslim is better off than a Christian or even an Ahmedi. No Punjabi is better off than a Baloch. This we need to ensure.

It is necessary to ensure the equality, the well treatment of your own people and give them freedom to practice what they want. As far as Islam is concerned lets just make it a personal matter. Who cares who practices his religion or not? A state wastes its money, time and resources when it tells its people in which direction to pray (so to speak) Europe realized this years ago, US realized this, India is realizing this no matter how horrific their rights record. Only we Pakistanis believe in a Super-Islamic state.

When has God ever jumped out of the sky to help us out of the mess we are in?

And please Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto was the worst leader in Pakistani history, he broke the country in half by not accepting Mujib's government, rigged elections, nationalized every second business he got his eyes on. He leaned on the Mullahs and persecuted Ahmedis like they were sheep then carried out the first military operations in Balochistan. He is an over-valued leader who is responsible for the hell today more than Zia Ul Haq.

 

[VelocuR]

This is real examples.

What I find interesting in Pakistan is believing to kill people emotionally in the name of Islam religion instead discussion or cooperation logically.

 

[Kaniska]

First of all , as a Pakistani and as a human these are certain things I want to share with people.

As a person I acknowledge all goods&bads of my country ,my own self and so on!

I understand that yes every one thinks we Pakistanis are extremists and even if certain people try to persuade it seems as if its all a tyranny and unreal! Right?
But people it's not compulsory that were there is bad there is no good. Every person has a habit
to blame others and even if I say you know my country people are like this and this but it's wrong first it's everyone's duty to correct himself when you've done you help other through your behaviour.

Honestly neither have I ever thought bad of India , it's a great country and when we are together
the whole world could be in our control or at least we can be in great use of each other but all our
Leaders are synonymous with treachery by USA or any other external power but we did have an
excellent leader " Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto" he made us a nuclear power, and he good relationships with India signing the world bank and so on. But Zia ul haq was synonymous with treachery by
USA which lead in Zulfiqar's execution.
When British came to sub-continent what did they started
making hindus and muslims fight. There is no religion until humanity is there.


Pakistan has great talents but they are not unbringed, only some are.
Two of our country's children took 24 subs and scored 22 A's and 23 A's but how huge was this
taken!

Education

We have a strategy in number of our schools whether they provide good education or not but to
forcefully guide children to upbring there talents while in Europe a children who is a genius is
the only one they take ahead.

But an only way to a good life here and then onwards after life is to be modest , in medium and
not blaming others.
Sari Insaan ki baat hoti hai yeh nahi ke banda shuru ho jai mere pass ye nahi hai or woh nahi hai.

We Pakistanis are no extremists and no taliban. Media is negatively bias towards us.

Islam allows dance singing, music everything except for ill treating, killing , being bias, or
being unkind.
Now however if people try making are image bad then we are not wrong though might be are
political leaders do certain actions and things which brings bad but either they are synonymous
with treachery in league of the American or any body else.

England was earlier also a non-ethical and non - flourished country one with less education but at that time certain of Muslims were flourishing but soon the British realised here wrongs and they followed the Muslims but some non-ethical people who though didn't like Islam joined as then it
was easier to conquer lands. Which is why some extremists and non-ethical things have ended up into Islam.
Quran is not only for Muslims , but you can find science, maths and everything else.
We are even not allowed to say that you know this religion is wrong or to make bad things out.
Quran is a complete code of life not only based on religion but life too.

I respect your thread and sentiment...You have a nice thought...

 

[EnidZaini]

Thanks kanishka for appreciating.

 

[CaptainJackSparrow]

Problem started when you guys started mixing Islam with Nationhood. Even Arabs don't do that.

The cocktail of religious emotion and nationalism defined by the fear of an enemy which should have never even been the enemy in the first place, was what started it all. This granted the military an unjustified legitimacy which it should never have in a democracy.

The US, India, the UK, France, Japan, Germany: nowhere does the military enjoy such unjustified legitimacy as it does in Pakistan.

...and then once the Generals had tasted power, there was no looking back. They were never to hand over the reins back to the 'bloody civilians'.

Only long-term solution for Pakistan is to send the Army back to the barracks and hand over the country back to the civilians. By 'handing over', I mean handing it over in every sense of the phrase.

 

[clmeta]

The state is mostly responsibly for it. Many times the state uses religious extremism as a shortcut to win over its masses. That is to cover its corruption, failure in governance etc. Now extremism is not a tap that can easily be turned off. If the state is serious, it should look into the education material students study, what is taught in madrassas,rein in funding for extremist organisations and try to provide education to as many people. And constantly harp on the fact that peace is what every faith teaches and co-existence and tolerence is a treasure not liability.

Problem started when you guys started mixing Islam with Nationhood. Even Arabs don't do that.

The cocktail of religious emotion and nationalism defined by the fear of an enemy which should have never even been the enemy in the first place, was what started it all. This granted the military an unjustified legitimacy which it should never have in a democracy.

The US, India, the UK, France, Japan, Germany: nowhere does the military enjoy such unjustified legitimacy as it does in Pakistan.

...and then once the Generals had tasted power, there was no looking back. They were never to hand over the reins back to the 'bloody civilians'.

Only long-term solution for Pakistan is to send the Army back to the barracks and hand over the country back to the civilians. By 'handing over', I mean handing it over in every sense of the phrase.

 

[Rusty]

Problem started when you guys started mixing Islam with Nationhood. Even Arabs don't do that.

The cocktail of religious emotion and nationalism defined by the fear of an enemy which should have never even been the enemy in the first place, was what started it all. This granted the military an unjustified legitimacy which it should never have in a democracy.

The US, India, the UK, France, Japan, Germany: nowhere does the military enjoy such unjustified legitimacy as it does in Pakistan.

...and then once the Generals had tasted power, there was no looking back. They were never to hand over the reins back to the 'bloody civilians'.

Only long-term solution for Pakistan is to send the Army back to the barracks and hand over the country back to the civilians. By 'handing over', I mean handing it over in every sense of the phrase.

how is military dictatorship "mixing Islam and Nationhood" ?

As much as you people like to point it out, our problem is not Islam and nationhood or mixing the 2. In fact, the best government officials tend to the ones who are more religions, and of course the opposite is true as well (just look at Zardari)

Our problem has always been short sighted leaders who used any means to keep themselves in power.

The way forward for Pakistan is education, employment and rule of law. With those things, most of the problems will sort themselves out.

 

[CaptainJackSparrow]

how is military dictatorship "mixing Islam and Nationhood" ?

As much as you people like to point it out, our problem is not Islam and nationhood or mixing the 2. In fact, the best government officials tend to the ones who are more religions, and of course the opposite is true as well (just look at Zardari)

Our problem has always been short sighted leaders who used any means to keep themselves in power.

The way forward for Pakistan is education, employment and rule of law. With those things, most of the problems will sort themselves out.

I never said Islam was your problem. I said expoliting Islam for myopic gains was the problem. That is the symptom. You have become so defensive about Islam that everytime somebody says anything about Islam, you become so angry and worked up as if somebody cut your genitals off.

I mean why so serious? You take your religion seriously; Good for you; but keep it within the walls of your homes. Why mix it with the functioning of the state?

Continued:

...and then you mixed it with 'Kashmir Shah-Rag and Kahsmir Banega Pakistan' and erected this edifice of an imagined enemy which should never even have been the enemy in the first place.

...the Generals smelled an opportunity and they took it.

Then came the 'Mujahideen' and 'Jihad', Islamic terms that were so exploited out of context by those very Generals that today these have become part of the everyday vocabulary in Pakistan.

...and slowly it all started spinning out of control.

BTW, I'm sorry but I don't believe that education will solve it for you guys. Not in the short-term, at least. Education needs time to bear fruits, mostly decades. I don't think you have that much time. Pakistan is already at the breaking point and some desperate measures are badly needed.

Besides, if education could have solved the problem, you'd never see truckloads of lawyers (educated!) showering rose petals upon a killer and celebrating him.

So it's definitely not education.

 

[scorpionx]

Thank u for posting such a nice thread. Problem that both india and pakistan faces is the extremist religious leaders who dont know anything about islam or hinduism. In india hinduism has been polluted by hindu extremist leaders. a simple sloka from veda/upanishada is greek to them but ask them to hate muslims they can spend Entire life into that subject.

 

[CaptainJackSparrow]

Thank u for posting such a nice thread. Problem that both india and pakistan faces is the extremist religious leaders who dont know anything about islam or hinduism. In india hinduism has been polluted by hindu extremist leaders. a simple sloka from veda/upanishada is greek to them but ask them to hate muslims they can spend Entire life into that subject.

It's gone down a lot in India. A lot.

Even BJP no longer plays up the Ram Temple issue because it knows that people are not going to fall for that anymore.

Most of elections in India are now fought on caste and other issues. Religion does not figure anymore.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

issues you discussed go beyond Kashmir and creation of Pakistan

people will have a point for their rallying cry.

Rath Yatra had a definite target.
Jerusalem was for the crusaders and if in the process some Muslims and Jews were slain then that was the bonus.

problem is with militant Islam, apologies for the lack of the term I mean the one that sees sword as a way to resolve an argument or a problem. same principle brought the Children of God back to their "birth right" with Tora in one hand and Uzi in the other.

no one advocates or justifies strife and unrest but the listener must have an open mind and heart to listen to the causes.

why the most deprived, poor and neglected areas have the highest crime rate? mostly miscarriage of justice, social injustice, exploitation and so forth.

now if you and I start condemning the dwellers of these slums from Mumbai to Karachi (for example) then we doesn't deserve the right to pass judgement. we are the ones needing the education and enlightenment.

you cant argue and debate with the people who have been lied to and betrayed many times. they see duplicity and criminal silence by the champions of democracy and proponents of human rights time and time again. the global terrorist Incorporated under the name of Al Qaeda is to me just like a South American drug cartel, its exploiting the loop and the gap and has the willing (read angry and disgruntled) youth to fill its ranks.

"you didnt mention generals" you exclaim

oh sorry , indeed the generals , the generals who turn the blind eye or call it an isolated incident when Holy Quran is peed on and used as a target practice in the Muslim occupied countries. when prisoners and the dead are repeatedly humiliated and violated repeatedly under the general term " isolated incident". but who does them? evangelic Christians, the God fearing truthful in your face your next door patriot and proud Americans.


address the cause. give up duplicity accept other races and religions as equal and stop compromising the basic principles of humanity and justice for the sake of a place to park the 5th fleet or contain China and strangulate Iran.

do that and you indirectly deflate the balloon of the Alyatullahs and Mullahs and Al Qaeda. do visit Israel and see the wall of remembrance where there are the names of Many Muslims who risked their lives to protect the Jewish people from certain death,
google it up if you dont believe if any such thing happens.

 

[Dr. NooB NinjA]

I never said Islam was your problem. I said expoliting Islam for myopic gains was the problem. That is the symptom. You have become so defensive about Islam that everytime somebody says anything about Islam, you become so angry and worked up as if somebody cut your genitals off.

I mean why so serious? You take your religion seriously; Good for you; but keep it within the walls of your homes. Why mix it with the functioning of the state?

Continued:

...and then you mixed it with 'Kashmir Shah-Rag and Kahsmir Banega Pakistan' and erected this edifice of an imagined enemy which should never even have been the enemy in the first place.

...the Generals smelled an opportunity and they took it.

Then came the 'Mujahideen' and 'Jihad', Islamic terms that were so exploited out of context by those very Generals that today these have become part of the everyday vocabulary in Pakistan.

...and slowly it all started spinning out of control.

BTW, I'm sorry but I don't believe that education will solve it for you guys. Not in the short-term, at least. Education needs time to bear fruits, mostly decades. I don't think you have that much time. Pakistan is already at the breaking point and some desperate measures are badly needed.

Besides, if education could have solved the problem, you'd never see truckloads of lawyers (educated!) showering rose petals upon a killer and celebrating him.

So it's definitely not education.

Its education and nothing else... True it takes time to bear fruits.. But can you think of any other means to get things on a better track.??

1) Education
2) Tolerance

And mind you; 2) will come only after 1)

PS : Nice share OP..!!

 

[scorpionx]

yes, i agree its not a national issue but the extremist leaders r still capable of provoking people. makbul fida hussain, taslima nasreen, salman rushdie are the burning example. in a secular society u dont expect those to happen.

 

[CaptainJackSparrow]

Its education and nothing else... True it takes time to bear fruits.. But can you think of any other means to get things on a better track.??

1) Education
2) Tolerance

And mind you; 2) will come only after 1)

PS : Nice share OP..!!

Education takes decades to bear fruits.

Can you imagine what would become of Pakistan by then, at this rate?

Short-term, strengthen the democratic institutions.

Let there be a free media. Free to criticise anybody.

Tell the Army to follow civilians' directives, it should not be the other way around. They should not play games like the Air Force Chief who challenges the PM to issue an order to shoot down the drones and the Army chief who favours drones in Wikileaks.

This double-faced policies must stop.

The people should know what's going on.