ISI to have more civilians at the top

[Sine Nomine]

The civvies can keep toiling at BPS 18 like they have been doing for the past 70 of years. You join ISI because of passion, your reward is the cloaks and daggers game you get to play. If someone is looking for authority, let them find some other organization for ladder climbing.

Why civilians Should be toiling at 18?Because all of those lying in unmarked graves,in some foreign country are always civilians or Pak Army Men are more loyal to Pakistan then DD Usman and Ad Lashari.
All of your IBO are carried out by them,your COAS is dependent on there feeds for decision making.
That proposal was on table for decade, it's a wise step because no one likes to be exploited forever.
I am damn sure you are just a fanboy without any knowledge about gravity of situation.

 

[Amaa'n]

Got no time for a monkeys like u..piss off or you will be banned and taken out like trash.


Do you understand whats happening sir?
Appointment of multiple civilian DGs...

While ISI has always had only 1 DG,chief.

You are confusing the Head of Directorate with Head of ISI itself --- seats are increased for DGs of a particular Directorate

 

[CriticalThought]

We have had people in the military too whose loyalty to the country you can question. There have been numerous cases to bust this illusion of the military somehow immune to this phenomenon.

According to some accounts it was an Army Brigadier who walked into the American embassy and told them he had info regarding OBL's location.

I myself recently ran into a bhagora from NESCOM who happened to be from the Army.

True, the army's history isn't exemplary. But the current fiefdom of economic terrorists is the last species of animals in whose hands national security can be entrusted.

Let me explain.
Q#1. YOu want to create finance division in ISI and you need a head of this directorate what will be the requirement?
Ans: A. 12-15 year of experience professional with PMP certification, CA/ICMA or MS 18 year qualification in finance , Economics and Banking. Can you fill this requirement from defence forces never civilian will be required. But if you need a professional with that much experience you should provide him attractive package in the form of salary and benefits because he will never quit his current job for low profile job.
B. If you induct military officer of the rank of LT Col in this post who is experienced in Heavy mecahnized Unit he will ruin entire department.

To meet future challenges you can never ever completely depend upon defence forces because it is not their work to manage Finance divisions, ICT departments, Media professionals and other expertise who are irrelevant.

I won't talk about ISI, but in general, intelligence agencies are financed by... black budgets. No one knows anything about them. You want some civilian to enter there and track all the money spent by ISI? At this point, discussion is moot. You have an agenda to open ISI's internal affairs to enemies of the state.

Hes a lost cause, no need arguing with him over this, he is not even getting the point here --- to him, the job being done by ISI is apprehending Terrorists by standing outside the doors of terroirsts ----


The civies have already been working till the post of BPS 19 - Director level, but they need to climb up the ladder further - not to enjoy the authority but to effectively manage their department ----
Let me put it this way -
You have a Tech team working on GIS project (now this could be CT related) they require some tools, instruments, equipment to upgrade their system - now those demands would be understood well by a Professional with in the same field or some Brigadier sb who have spent some tough nights at the mountains of FATA ----

Also you don't get the point of increasing the seats for Civilians either --- it will ease off the pressure on Military to have an equally competent commander in place --- they don't need to pull a good commander from Military because they will have a Civil commander who has served same amount of time fighting tangos in Urban areas, going through same level of training ---- & more diplomatic approach -----

I don't know why you are demeaning the intellects of Army officers. Not all of them are equal. The most critical training in the army is to think on your feet, and adapt quickly to changes. Some officers never truly evolve, but many do. How come army officers are running the most ambitious, intellectual, and scientific operations in the country such as PAC, and HIT? If you create the requirement that serving officers must acquire relevant qualifications before being posted at management posts in key departments, a lot of the problems you are pointing out can get solved.

Here in Australia, we have managers who have at most Bachelors degrees who have PhDs working for them. How do you think this becomes possible? In the modern workforce, learning is a lifetime process. You keep learning and adapting as the requirements of the job evolve.

All I have seen up till now are specious arguments to facilitate the agenda of increasing civilian intervention in Army affairs.

 

[Zarvan]

I hate PML N more than many of you here, but people if you have no idea How ISI works than it's your fault. This entire plan of increasing civilians on top was of ISI and Army not PML N. They just gave the approval, entire plan was made by Army. And one major reason is in modern times not only you need people with modern degrees and point of view. Experts of Cyber Warfare and security are needed along with those who are expert in dealing with criminals and understand their Psychology and other things. You need criminal pro filers and all other experts. Technology has changed entire Intelligence Warfare thing. First I was supporting the idea that NSA type agency should be created but now I think ISI should create a NSA within instead of having a separate agency and for that you need civilians.

@balixd @Horus @CriticalThought @Burhan Wani

 

[CriticalThought]

Well, this is certainly a move to welcome.

It should be known that intelligence agencies around the world operate as civilian institutions and actually draw their agents/empoyees from the civilian populace rather than cherry-picking them from the military,this includes the CIA which requires applicants to have at least a bachelor's degree with a 3.0 GPA, others that employ civilians include the Mossad,MI6 and even our beloved R.A.W.

Also, other nations are careful to keep their intelligence agecies under their control and supervision rather than giving them a free-hand to create a "Political Wing" to manipulate national politics(see:https://www.dawn.com/news/331357).

But still, these civilian appointments might end up rotting the ISI like the rest of our civilian institutions such as the police or customs,but may God forbid this from happening.

Here is the key difference between the rest of the world and us. In general, an American would not defect to Pakistan because we don't have anything to offer. We don't have beautiful women, modern infrastructure, clean roads, quality of life, etc. Even if you offer a million dollars, he knows the money will be tracked and he will lose the money and his life. On the other hand, Pakistanis are sellouts by nature. The Army isn't immune, but so far, it has proven its worth. Don't fix what ain't broke.

Why civilians Should be toiling at 18?Because all of those lying in unmarked graves,in some foreign country are always civilians or Pak Army Men are more loyal to Pakistan then DD Usman and Ad Lashari.
All of your IBO are carried out by them,your COAS is dependent on there feeds for decision making.
That proposal was on table for decade, it's a wise step because no one likes to be exploited forever.
I am damn sure you are just a fanboy without any knowledge about gravity of situation.

I am damn sure of one thing. At this point, Americans and Indians are looking to inspect the inner workings of our armed forces and national security agencies, this whole government is a bunch of sellouts, and increasing people who have power in an organization is the easiest way to create opportunities for buying people out. This is the main thing which concerns me.

I hate PML N more than many of you here, but people if you have no idea How ISI works than it's your fault. This entire plan of increasing civilians on top was of ISI and Army not PML N. They just gave the approval, entire plan was made by Army. And one major reason is in modern times not only you need people with modern degrees and point of view. Experts of Cyber Warfare and security are needed along with those who are expert in dealing with criminals and understand their Psychology and other things. You need criminal pro filers and all other experts. Technology has changed entire Intelligence Warfare thing. First I was supporting the idea that NSA type agency should be created but now I think ISI should create a NSA within instead of having a separate agency and for that you need civilians.

@balixd @Horus @CriticalThought @Burhan Wani

Brother, you need all of those, but you don't need to appoint them has heads who have a lot of power and access to sensitive information. Now if you tell me these new fangled posts are limited in the information they get, then that is OK. It is like a hierarchy within a civil part of the organization. But a separation of concerns MUST be maintained where these civilian types are completely denied access to other parts. And putting a civilian in a sensitive department like Finance... people have got to be out of their minds!

 

[Zarvan]

Here is the key difference between the rest of the world and us. In general, an American would not defect to Pakistan because we don't have anything to offer. We don't have beautiful women, modern infrastructure, clean roads, quality of life, etc. Even if you offer a million dollars, he knows the money will be tracked and he will lose the money and his life. On the other hand, Pakistanis are sellouts by nature. The Army isn't immune, but so far, it has proven its worth. Don't fix what ain't broke.



I am damn sure of one thing. At this point, Americans and Indians are looking to inspect the inner workings of our armed forces and national security agencies, this whole government is a bunch of sellouts, and increasing people who have power in an organization is the easiest way to create opportunities for buying people out. This is the main thing which concerns me.



Brother, you need all of those, but you don't need to appoint them has heads who have a lot of power and access to sensitive information. Now if you tell me these new fangled posts are limited in the information they get, then that is OK. It is like a hierarchy within a civil part of the organization. But a separation of concerns MUST be maintained where these civilian types are completely denied access to other parts. And putting a civilian in a sensitive department like Finance... people have got to be out of their minds!

Yes you have to appoint them as heads that is why you build trust that is how you keep people motivated until you gave them better pay and also better opportunities to go on next level you can't expect them to give their 100 %. Religious Motivation and Patriotism is great but we are also humans with human needs which needs to be addressed.

 

[CriticalThought]

Yes you have to appoint them as heads that is why you build trust that is how you keep people motivated until you gave them better pay and also better opportunities to go on next level you can't expect them to give their 100 %. Religious Motivation and Patriotism is great but we are also humans with human needs which needs to be addressed.

Let me introduce you to the charms of contracting. Here in Australia, there is a part of the workforce who spend their lives as contractors. They have no annual leaves or sick leaves, no job surety, no bonuses, and no career growth. What they do have is obscene salaries. And I mean up to $1000/- per day. Read that number again. For the right contractor, companies can pay up to $1000/- per day. Top talent can certainly be attracted with the right incentives.

 

[Amaa'n]

I don't know why you are demeaning the intellects of Army officers. Not all of them are equal

May be I have the first hand experience of interacting with them??

The most critical training in the army is to think on your feet, and adapt quickly to changes. Some officers never truly evolve, but many do.

I would like to hear some of the cases you have come across --- my counter narrative still stands strong that Civilians in the Intelligence Agencies across Military Establishment have proven their meddle, by not only sitting in the office behind the Monitors but in the Field Operations too ---- there are vast examples (record & off the record)

How come army officers are running the most ambitious, intellectual, and scientific operations in the country such as PAC, and HIT? If you create the requirement that serving officers must acquire relevant qualifications before being posted at management posts in key departments, a lot of the problems you are pointing out can get solved.

& look at the ambitious state of these institutions - do you know PoF have some civilians working so they could advise them on choosing the best weapon ? (small arms) no you don't my brother ---

Here in Australia, we have managers who have at most Bachelors degrees who have PhDs working for them. How do you think this becomes possible? In the modern workforce, learning is a lifetime process. You keep learning and adapting as the requirements of the job evolve.
.

let me point it out to you that we are talking about a commander who has same set of expertise in the same field he is heading ---- I wonder which school they would teach a Colonel on procuring Cisco system ----
a Military agency had to recruit a Network Engineer --- a monitoring panel was sitting of serving Officers - yet interview was conducted by a Consultant of Computer manufacturer ----
Later a team of Experts was to be hired - & that Network engineer was asked to conduct interviews & select the candidates ---- & let me add here that Military Agency had ICTOs at disposal, one wonders why no one came forward in this case??

 

[CriticalThought]

let me point it out to you that we are talking about a commander who has same set of expertise in the same field he is heading ---- I wonder which school they would teach a Colonel on procuring Cisco system ----
a Military agency had to recruit a Network Engineer --- a monitoring panel was sitting of serving Officers - yet interview was conducted by a Consultant of Computer manufacturer ----
Later a team of Experts was to be hired - & that Network engineer was asked to conduct interviews & select the candidates ---- & let me add here that Military Agency had ICTOs at disposal, one wonders why no one came forward in this case??

We have software managers without any knowledge of machine learning who supervise data scientists performing highly mathematical work. The manager needs to learn quickly and demand that the employee make things understandable for him. Continuous learning, quantitative time bounded goals, and plain good management is how you achieve it. No need to install every Tom, Dick, and Harry to sensitive posts.

 

[Burhan Wani]

True, the army's history isn't exemplary. But the current fiefdom of economic terrorists is the last species of animals in whose hands national security can be entrusted.



I won't talk about ISI, but in general, intelligence agencies are financed by... black budgets. No one knows anything about them. You want some civilian to enter there and track all the money spent by ISI? At this point, discussion is moot. You have an agenda to open ISI's internal affairs to enemies of the state.



I don't know why you are demeaning the intellects of Army officers. Not all of them are equal. The most critical training in the army is to think on your feet, and adapt quickly to changes. Some officers never truly evolve, but many do. How come army officers are running the most ambitious, intellectual, and scientific operations in the country such as PAC, and HIT? If you create the requirement that serving officers must acquire relevant qualifications before being posted at management posts in key departments, a lot of the problems you are pointing out can get solved.

Here in Australia, we have managers who have at most Bachelors degrees who have PhDs working for them. How do you think this becomes possible? In the modern workforce, learning is a lifetime process. You keep learning and adapting as the requirements of the job evolve.

All I have seen up till now are specious arguments to facilitate the agenda of increasing civilian intervention in Army affairs.

Dear The Finance directorate have nothing to do with internal Audit and ISI finances. A purpose of this directorate is to monitor Terror funding, Hawala money, Black money and legal or illegal fund transfers to foreign banks. A person who have deep knowledge about Finance, Banking and economy can better handle this matter rather than military official. Please try to differentiate between a civilian and politician.

 

[Zarvan]

Let me introduce you to the charms of contracting. Here in Australia, there is a part of the workforce who spend their lives as contractors. They have no annual leaves or sick leaves, no job surety, no bonuses, and no career growth. What they do have is obscene salaries. And I mean up to $1000/- per day. Read that number again. For the right contractor, companies can pay up to $1000/- per day. Top talent can certainly be attracted with the right incentives.

You don't establish intelligence like that you destroy your entire network by doing that

 

[CriticalThought]

Dear The Finance directorate have nothing to do with internal Audit and ISI finances. A purpose of this directorate is to monitor Terror funding, Hawala money, Black money and legal or illegal fund transfers to foreign banks. A person who have deep knowledge about Finance, Banking and economy can better handle this matter rather than military official. Please try to differentiate between a civilian and politician.

Now let's see if a civilian walks into this post. Per your requirement, this person should be highly qualified. What better person to have than a foreign educated professional? Already, I can see the trouble here. So, let's say we impose the restriction that the person should have remained in Pakistan all his life. You now have a post that the enemy knows can be targeted. The enemy will try his level best to get his moles into this post. It is easy for him to get a mole into this publicized mole from a pool of 200 million people. On the other hand, if Army personnel are trained for this role, the enemy has to do exponentially more work. He needs to work on multiple moles across multiple courses of Kakul Academy, and even then his bets may not pay off because nothing is guaranteed.

An army officer, after appropriate training, can command a department of finance specialists. Coming from the army background, he has a life's training to be on the lookout for enemies. He has the warrior mindset. He treats everything, and everyone with the suspicion they deserver. I would rather have him looking after the department than some civilian.

You don't establish intelligence like that you destroy your entire network by doing that

The contractor model is employed by the CIA itself. They need clearances, and these need to be refreshed on a regular basis.

 

[Big Tank]

Now let's see if a civilian walks into this post. Per your requirement, this person should be highly qualified. What better person to have than a foreign educated professional? Already, I can see the trouble here. So, let's say we impose the restriction that the person should have remained in Pakistan all his life. You now have a post that the enemy knows can be targeted. The enemy will try his level best to get his moles into this post. It is easy for him to get a mole into this publicized mole from a pool of 200 million people. On the other hand, if Army personnel are trained for this role, the enemy has to do exponentially more work. He needs to work on multiple moles across multiple courses of Kakul Academy, and even then his bets may not pay off because nothing is guaranteed.

An army officer, after appropriate training, can command a department of finance specialists. Coming from the army background, he has a life's training to be on the lookout for enemies. He has the warrior mindset. He treats everything, and everyone with the suspicion they deserver. I would rather have him looking after the department than some civilian.



The contractor model is employed by the CIA itself. They need clearances, and these need to be refreshed on a regular basis.

By reading all your replies. I have came to the conclusion that you Kid have no idea how things work in the ISI. You're merely a fanboy who goes through Youtube videos to learn about 'Deepest Covert Operations'. I bet you've never read a single book written by an author who served in Intelligence Community of Pakistan or related to it. ISI operates differently. It's external intelligence totally relies upon its Civilian Agents who give up their life to infiltrate wherever they're told. The Field Operatives in the ISI are largely based of Civilians rather than Military Personnel. I was the same fanboy dude like you back in my teens. That no one except Army is a patriot here but trust me, living in a Military Cantonment with a Brother who serves. I know that there is no difference. Army is just so good to hide the deeds and how lousy and corrupt its Personnel is. CAD (Covert Activities Div) is commanded by Military but operated by the Civilian Agents. Military Officers in ISI (Major, Cols or Brigs) are likely posted OCs, GSO-IIs or Section Commanders for commanding a useless DTE within Cantonment or some sensitive area to gather useless Intelligence about people living nearby in return having amazing housing benifits, NCBs, Unit Perks and lot more as compared to a Civilian Agent who gets no shit. I am not ignoring the sacrifices given by Military Officers but those guys whom you think about doing 'Dishoom Dishoom' for the Agency, walking on dead lonely roads. Are actually Civilian Field Operation Agents. Watch one of the interviews of Maj Amir. Where he says I'd never send a Military Personnel working for Intelligence to some other or hostile country but instead a Civilian. That's the SOP. And Major Intelligence collections were done by Civilians working in India Afghanistan or other hostile countries. If they aren't so good. That wouldn't have been the structure. You need to learn so much yet.

 

[CriticalThought]

By reading all your replies. I have came to the conclusion that you Kid have no idea how things work in the ISI. You're merely a fanboy who goes through Youtube videos to learn about 'Deepest Covert Operations'. I bet you've never read a single book written by an author who served in Intelligence Community of Pakistan or related to it. ISI operates differently. It's external intelligence totally relies upon its Civilian Agents who give up their life to infiltrate wherever they're told. The Field Operatives in the ISI are largely based of Civilians rather than Military Personnel. I was the same fanboy dude like you back in my teens. That no one except Army is a patriot here but trust me, living in a Military Cantonment with a Brother who serves. I know that there is no difference. Army is just so good to hide the deeds and how lousy and corrupt its Personnel is. CAD (Covert Activities Div) is commanded by Military but operated by the Civilian Agents. Military Officers in ISI (Major, Cols or Brigs) are likely posted for commanding a useless DTE within Cantonment or some sensitive area to gather useless Intelligence about people living nearby. I am not ignoring the sacrifices given by Military Officers but those guys whom you think about doing 'Dishoom Dishoom' for the Agency, walking on dead lonely roads. Are actually Civilian Field Operation Agents. Watch one of the interviews of Maj Amir. Where he says I'd never send a Military Personnel working for Intelligence to some other or hostile country but instead a Civilian. That's the SOP. And Major Intelligence collections were done by Civilians working in India Afghanistan or other hostile countries. If they aren't so good. That wouldn't have been the structure. You need to learn so much yet.

You simply need to read my posts better. I am saying no civilians should be appointed to posts holding high level of authority within ISI.

 

[Big Tank]

You simply need to read my posts better. I am saying no civilians should be appointed to posts holding high level of authority within ISI.

I've read all of them and you make no sense. PM me for some recommendations if you are really interested.