'ISI killing US troops in Afghanistan'

[S-2]

"India has made half a dozen 'consulates' operational all along the Pak-Afghan border regions, a massive effort ..."

Really? Said with such authority too. Where besides Jalalabad and Kandahar? The only other two of which I'm aware are Herat and Mazur-I-Sharif. Neither of the latter two, of course, are along the Pakistani border.

"...In addition, India has 21 'front offices'..."

Again, said with absolute authority. Their locations and a link to this info please? I'd like to know more.

"There was a report quite some time back how an Afghan Army Officer was caught in civilian clothing along with an Indian citizen in the FATA region distributing 'hate literature'/propaganda to instigate attacks on Pakistan Army & government institutions."

Somewhere here is a more recent report of a credentialed ISI agent killed by SAS within Afghanistan. As I recall, it was a story by Christine Lamb of the London Times. The agent was evidently killed in an ambush while wearing civilian clothing and in the company of taliban militia.

These reports could be true or not. Who knows? What I do know is that you can't accept the possibility of one without accepting the same possibility for the other. Having said that, I'd go one step further and likely believe Ms. Lamb's story. OTOH, given that you seem to know so little about India's afghan consulates, why should I believe the veracity of your story about an Afghan Army officer?

 

[Sid]

Really? Said with such authority too. Where besides Jalalabad and Kandahar? The only other two of which I'm aware are Herat and Mazur-I-Sharif. Neither of the latter two, of course, are along the Pakistani border.

Obviously if you want drag others in a literal-verbatim meanings of sentences that were uttered in a more general way; you can have your share of browny points.

The main point behind the statement was to highlight that all consulates are concentrated on the Eastern half of Afghanistan where as the Western & even Northern Afghanistan have not attracted the same Indian attention. Aside from Mazar-e-Sharif & Herat, the main nucleus of Indian activity remains areas closer to Pakistani border.

Again, said with absolute authority. Their locations and a link to this info please? I'd like to know more.

Its an open secret which, even if you do a basic google search would throw up some links for your satisfaction. There are 'front offices' & there are 'information centres', all mostly concentrated in areas in close proximity to Pak-Afghan border. One wonders if the Afghans in the Western & Northern half of Afghanistan aren't interested in knowing abt 'Indian culture' or what.

Somewhere here is a more recent report of a credentialed ISI agent killed by SAS within Afghanistan. As I recall, it was a story by Christine Lamb of the London Times. The agent was evidently killed in an ambush while wearing civilian clothing and in the company of taliban militia.

These reports could be true or not. Who knows? What I do know is that you can't accept the possibility of one without accepting the same possibility for the other. Having said that, I'd go one step further and likely believe Ms. Lamb's story. OTOH, given that you seem to know so little about India's afghan consulates, why should I believe the veracity of your story about an Afghan Army officer?

You are most welcome to believe & sleepover petty information that is released in to the public sphere. The information I shared was picked up from a discussion on a Pakistani-channel that included:

1. Swaran Singh, Associate Professor at School of International Studies of Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi

2. Ms Maria Sultan, director of South Asian Strategic Stability Institute, Islamabad

3. Ms Nirupama Subramaniam, Islamabad Bureau Chief of Indian English daily, The Hindu

4. Irshad Mahmud, Analyst of Kashmir affairs, who writes in Srinagar English daily Greater Kashmir

5. Yasin Malik, senior leader of Kashmir All Parties Hurriyat Conference, who joins the discussion via telephone line from Srinagar

.. back in September or October. I will try to look for that to quench your thirst.


As far as RAW covert Ops of terrorism inside Pakistan are concerned, they are nothing new. Indian nationals are caught on a regular basis trying to engage in sabotage activities inside Pakistan, more-so in the North-West & Balochistan where the so-called "Balochistan Liberation Army" militants captured & interrogated have time & again admitted to having been trained in 'Farari' Camps in Afghanistan before being sent back to Pakistan.

High profile cases of Indian spies include Sarabjit Singh; and the released 'Kashmir Singh' who admitted upon his return to India that he was indeed an Indian spy. A recently arrested individual is Mr Shukla

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/25indian-held-in-pakistan-for-lahore-blast.htm

 

[S-2]

"Obviously if you want drag others in a literal-verbatim meanings of sentences that were uttered in a more general way"

B.S. You were clear as, dare I say, gin. You don't know what you're writing about.

"The main point behind the statement was to highlight that all consulates are concentrated on the Eastern half of Afghanistan where as the Western & even Northern Afghanistan have not attracted the same Indian attention."

Even after acknowledging your enthusiastic overcount, you STILL don't get it. Four consulates- one in Mazur-I-Sharif and one in Herat. That's HALF of their consulates somewhere other than "the Eastern half of Afghanistan".

In fact Herat and Mazur-I-Sharif are EXACTLY in "Western & even Northern Afghanistan".

Sid, you're really not good with a map, are you?

I googled "Indian information offices in Afghanistan". No hits. I googled "Indian Front Offices In Afghanistan". No hits. Locations would be helpful. Should be easy. Addresses please?

No. There are four consulates and one embassy. That's it. About 4,000 Indians all told with various projects around the nation. Here's a recent backgrounder from the Council On Foreign Relations-

India-Afghanistan Relations- CFR October, 2008

Still waiting for that first article and photos from a RAW-directed BLA training camp "somewhere in southern Afghanistan".

You guys don't get it. The Indians have pledged $1.2 Billion since 9/11. They're out-flanking you right in front of your eyes in the most legitimate ways possible. That's real power.

 

[RedBaron]

...
You guys don't get it. The Indians have pledged $1.2 Billion since 9/11. They're out-flanking you right in front of your eyes in the most legitimate ways possible. That's real power.

Exactly! The simple truth is Afghans need roads, hospitals, schools, and yes, some tacky but escapist Bollywood movies to provide some respite from the all-encompassing gloom out there. And that is what India is providing them...

RAW most certainly has a presence but why would they not take advantage of setting up recon stations there? ISI would do the same thing tomorrow if SL, BD, Nepal turn against India just like GoA has turned against Pakistan.

Taliban have termed India "eternal enemies", so the idea of India colluding with Taliban (Pak or Afghan) is pure BS.

 

[Anwar2]

Indian Consulate in Jalalabad alone controls "Liaison offices" in Dakka (near Torkham), Kama (near Jalalabad), Torghundi (abeam Tirah).

 

[S-2]

Why don't you provide an e-mail address, phone number, link, etc.? That'd be helpful for verification, wouldn't you agree? Four consulates x three liaison offices equals...12 of these maybe? Think Mazur-I-Sharif has three?

Let's put some substance behind the innuendo, please? I've read seventeen consulate offices here at def.pk. I can only find four. I've read 10,000 Indians going to 120,000. I can only find 4,000. I've read of BLA insurgents receiving aid from Indian consulates. Not one article of any witnessed operations or camps inside Afghanistan.

It COULD be true. So far, though, the hyperbole has far exceeded the reality of Indian operations and given the levels of legitimate penetration that their aid is buying, I see little reason why they'd endanger their presence.

That's just me though.

 

[Sid]

Why don't you provide an e-mail address, phone number, link, etc.? That'd be helpful for verification, wouldn't you agree? Four consulates x three liaison offices equals...12 of these maybe? Think Mazur-I-Sharif has three?

Let's put some substance behind the innuendo, please? I've read seventeen consulate offices here at def.pk. I can only find four. I've read 10,000 Indians going to 120,000. I can only find 4,000. I've read of BLA insurgents receiving aid from Indian consulates. Not one article of any witnessed operations or camps inside Afghanistan.

It COULD be true. So far, though, the hyperbole has far exceeded the reality of Indian operations and given the levels of legitimate penetration that their aid is buying, I see little reason why they'd endanger their presence.

That's just me though.

You're wasting your time & our time by asking 'silly nanny' questions, the answers to which, YOU know, are not available in the public domain. Indians will certainly not 'advertise' addresses for their Front Offices and as user 'Anwar2' pointed out, most are disguised as Liaison Offices or Information Offices.

Maps of BLA training camps run by RAW cannot be provided obviously, you knew that before you even asked the question; since Pakistan has no access to spy-satellite imagery - its limited to human intel in most cases.

Just because a Front Office address doesn't pop up on your highschool google search, doesnt mean it doesnt exist. One wonders how many U.S run 'rendition' centers across the globe have their addresses listed on google.

 

[Sid]

RAW most certainly has a presence but why would they not take advantage of setting up recon stations there? ISI would do the same thing tomorrow if SL, BD, Nepal turn against India just like GoA has turned against Pakistan.

Taliban have termed India "eternal enemies", so the idea of India colluding with Taliban (Pak or Afghan) is pure BS.

A rather 'weak' argument -> 'jst cuz ISI will do it, RAW should do it too'. Dont the Indian like to malign ISI as a rogue intelligence agency? Dont they associate non-democracy to Pakistan & differentiate India, boastfully, as being on a higher moral ground? Yes they do.

Then this type of reasoning is quite ludicrous given that context. If India genuinely wants to help Afghanistan, Pakistan has no problems, but if you're looking to extract covert benefits, than you are no different from ISI or Pakistan or whoever else you like blaming for Afghanistan's ills.

 

[S-2]

"Just because a Front Office address doesn't pop up on your highschool google search, doesnt mean it doesnt exist."

This reply took a week?

Just because a "front office" MIGHT exist doesn't mean it's engaged in nefarious activities of any sort much less specifically directed against Pakistan. Prove existence, then prove malicious intent, and finally prove a pattern of such elsewhere in Afghanistan by direction of New Delhi.

You're posturing on fumes. Not much in the tank.

 

[maximus]

We need to teach uncle Sam some big lessons. This is our backyard and we should really punish the Americans for any wrongdoing. We need to be in the driving seat and calling the shots. If war is the result, so be it. Pakistan needs to keep all options open. Nothing goes beyond Pakistan's sovereignty. It's they that need us more than we need them. We need to keep that in mind. ISI should up the ante whenever needed and I fully back them. Pakistan's interests always first.

 

[SherdiL!]

what ? that explains why 73% of Kabul is still in Taliban hands....geez.

 

[S-2]

"We need to teach uncle Sam some big lessons."

What "big lessons" would you like to administer?

And the reason that you haven't already done so?

"This is our backyard and we should really punish the Americans for any wrongdoing."

Grow up. FATA is your backyard and it hardly bears the name "Pakistan" except on maps. Quit meddling in the affairs of others when you can barely control the citizens within your own.

You want a position in Afghanistan? Earn it by your good deeds. India has pledged $1.2 Billion to Afghanistan's recovery. Unlike many who've done so, they are actually providing the money and aid. Their projects are visible and helpful to all concerned and don't at all appear to be the problem so implied by all here.

Sid has no proof of evil operations and mal-intent by the Indians. I've plenty of proof of militias that make war on Afghanistan from sanctuary in Pakistan. At this point there's no remote comparison.

Those are the broad facts of the matter and it's too bad that it really boils down to most here believing in their heart of hearts that Afghanistan constitutes some personal sandbox for the GoP's continuing pursuit of the ever-elusive "strategic space".

Stop with your bad selves and, personally, get off your high horse, Maximus. You've no leverage with America which we can't muliply in spades against you. Y'all are along for the ride- and you should be if you know what's best for yourselves.

Were I you, I'd hope it stays that way. You need America like never before.

Have a good day there, stud.

 

[Kasrkin]

Just because a "front office" MIGHT exist doesn't mean it's engaged in nefarious activities of any sort much less specifically directed against Pakistan. Prove existence, then prove malicious intent, and finally prove a pattern of such elsewhere in Afghanistan by direction of New Delhi.

You're posturing on fumes. Not much in the tank.

Same can be said about the Indian BS we get 24/7 that insists on notions of not only ISI but the Pakistan Army helping the Taliban presently. This view is obviously shared by a certain part of the US political/media spectrum. Furthermore as I recall, you yourself were pretty disinclined to reject this particular PoV a few days back. I don’t remember you calling for maps, names, classified data, etc that would 'prove' all existence, intent, pattern as far as ISI's alleged continued affiliation with the Taliban or even any of their deviating outfits is concerned for that matter. I can go on, point is if anyone were to read your posts on this forum and examine your ideas, beliefs, inclinations, views and convictions...we'd find hardly any of them that live up to this criteria. Certainly in my own interactions with you I've seen you use your own unique (un-universal) interpretation to develop what in your mind seems to be a 'motive' and stick to your subsequent contentions stubbornly while we argue our throats dry trying fill you in with all the logic and facts in the world that would indicate otherwise. Basically what I’m trying to say is, this is an online military forum…and for what’s it’s worth most of us (including you) ’posture on fumes’. Even if any authentic information was available to any of us relating to affairs of this nature, it is likely to be disregarded by the contester and on the other hand information available on the common media varies to an extent that makes it impossible to relate on a mutual platform in terms of credibility.

Are Indian elements involved in fermenting terrorism and unrest in Pakistan from Afghanistan? Many Pakistanis here believe so including the Pakistani General in charge of operations there, and impartial observers have certainly acknowledged that this contention is a distinct possibility. It’s hard to argue that there could be no motive there or that India hasn’t done this before or that she lacks the capability. However, we obviously don’t have elaborate and extensive proof to completely validate our suspicions (not anymore than an average Indian would in regards to alleged Pakistani role in the Mumbai attacks at any rate).

 

[BATMAN]

I remember reading that Pakistan forces fighting with militant elements in north recovered wepons which are used by indians in Afghanistan.
There were also incedents of dead TTP elements identified as non-Muslims and of course the famous mehsud saga!
Than comes the vedio tapes shown to US, about BLA cheif's intimate moments with RAW officials in india and Afghanistan.
It is also coincidence that in Pakistan we never heard of this BLA, where as every indian member knows all about it.
Above are hard evidence of involvement of foreign states in Pakistan internal affairs. Any how circumstatial evidence tells us that there was no such anti Pakistan Taliban till about 3 years ago.
They only appeared at a time when world media started to bash Pakistan and P.Musharraf for human rights and for being un democratic.
Now it is no secret that there was immense US pressure on Musharraf to quit and media and Mullahs were used as black mail tool.
Biden, US pressure forced Musharraf to doff uniform: Gilani
I also remember Pakistan was dismembered from common wealth and by coincident an indian was appointed on top common wealth post.

 

[maximus]

"We need to teach uncle Sam some big lessons."

What "big lessons" would you like to administer?

And the reason that you haven't already done so?

"This is our backyard and we should really punish the Americans for any wrongdoing."

Grow up. FATA is your backyard and it hardly bears the name "Pakistan" except on maps. Quit meddling in the affairs of others when you can barely control the citizens within your own.

You want a position in Afghanistan? Earn it by your good deeds. India has pledged $1.2 Billion to Afghanistan's recovery. Unlike many who've done so, they are actually providing the money and aid. Their projects are visible and helpful to all concerned and don't at all appear to be the problem so implied by all here.

Sid has no proof of evil operations and mal-intent by the Indians. I've plenty of proof of militias that make war on Afghanistan from sanctuary in Pakistan. At this point there's no remote comparison.

Those are the broad facts of the matter and it's too bad that it really boils down to most here believing in their heart of hearts that Afghanistan constitutes some personal sandbox for the GoP's continuing pursuit of the ever-elusive "strategic space".

Stop with your bad selves and, personally, get off your high horse, Maximus. You've no leverage with America which we can't muliply in spades against you. Y'all are along for the ride- and you should be if you know what's best for yourselves.

Were I you, I'd hope it stays that way. You need America like never before.

Have a good day there, stud.

Cut the nonsense hilly billy and spare us your so-called ethical lecture. You're the last person on this planet to preach morality to others. Do I need to remind you of your wonderful service in Iraq? Slaughtered, tortured and raped half of the population. Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo Bay ring any bells? Where do you even get the courage to act like an innocent angel? Well, I got some bad news for you. You're in no position to lecture anyone. In fact, your lousy government is already drafting all sorts aid packages for Pakistan. Just provide the billions and shut up. The desperation can be felt from a thousand miles. Top priority of the next administration to put it mildly LOL You need us very badly and you know it. No success without our cooperation in Afghanistan. Neither are we as incapable or helpless as Iraq and Afghanistan. The GoP is just a shade. It's the army that rules in Pakistan. You don't even know that. The truth is that you lost in Vietnam. You also lost in Iraq and now you're going to lose the war in Afghanistan. You got your a s s kicked by a bunch of street fighters. We don't want anything in Afghanistan except for you to get your rear end out of there. We will eventually make sure that happens so mark my words. You can act tough all you want. In the end our army and intelligence calls the shots in Afghanistan and always will. How long do you intend to stay there? A thousand years? You will eventually leave one day. We are here to stay forever. It's only a matter of time. If India poses a problem we will deal with them too. Now, that's the bitter reality that you have to live with. You keep on plotting with your buddies. We will give you the taste of your own medicine. You indeed are in our backyard and we know every inch of it. If you think that you have come here to win you're sorely mistaken. No one wins here and never has Yank. Get that through your thick skull. Now, go and read some history...