ISI involved in foiling UK terror attack

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Salim, the debate was about national interest and if you look at it, national interest always justifies no matter what the action might be.

Taliban? National Interest. No Taliban? National Interest.

It's a lesson taught to the world by America. As long as its the enemy side that loses, every option is on the table. Pakistan's first, everything else's second.

The issue (thread title) is " ISI involved in foiling UK terror attack".

That apart, my post was a general comment - the heartsearching. It is applicable to all countries in general and not a J'Accuse. The sad part is that even if I should praise Pakistan, you will shovel out something and coat it to appear as a J' Accuse. :disappointed: Ah! what a fate that has stricken me.

However, now that you have this interesting sentence, let's analyse it for your sake

Taliban? National Interest. No Taliban? National Interest.

Who organised it? From where did they emerge? From which institutions and from which country? Does that require any answer? Should there not be heart searching?

True it was in Pakistan's national interest. But now it has taken cancerous proportion and is consuming Pakistan itself internally as also internationally. Even in this latest threat, all roads lead to Pakistan! I am sure the average, law abiding Pakistan is disgusted that their country's image is getting tarnished every time, for no fault of thiers. Unless Pakistan uproots the terrorist and terror organisations from the roots, all will suffer. Paksitan and the world. At least, Pakistan is in a good position to do so, since it has a military man heading the organisation and he is Pakistan personified and the nuances of politics can take a running jump.

Now, let's go into the issue of the ISI foiling the terrorists. Commendable and, unless one is cussed, the good work cannot be perfunctorily cast aside with obtuse negativeness.

Yet, one should not hesitate to do soul searching.

The whole issue of the current impetus has its roots in what could be described (as nearest feasible) is "Born Again Islam". This manifested itself with the mujahideen's spectacular success against the Soviet, then a global superpower!

This victory was a watershed in Islamic resurgence.

The repeated failures in the Middle East to attempt to establish itself as an entity worthy of Islam's grand military conquests a la Sallahuddin (Saladin) and total failure to address the knotty Palestinian issue, the victory against the Soviets through a non formal combat matrix was adrenalin to Islam. It was necatar to Islam. It gave new meaning to Islamic fervour and salvaged the Islamic prestige in the eyes of the world (at least perceived by the people of the Islamic faith).

To this point, it was perfect since it served everyone's interests.

This victory over the Soviets germinated a spark amongst the more militant elements, who were convinced that if they could defeat a global superpower and that too a regimented one, then it was possible to do so to the other superpower, with all its infirmity of a democracy. Simplistically observed, the logic is flawless. Thus, a war against Communist repression, converted to a militant format against the US and the West and, in their eyes, for good reasons too! After all, Palestine and all other woes of the Islamic world was directly and indirectly attributable to their influence, if nothing else!

Waging war against the US and the West for these militants was not feasible without taking the Islamic population on board since the Islamic governments the world over were "sold" to the US for a variety of reasons and it was essential to ndeutralise them from the Islamic mass. Thus, they gave their militancy a religious colour - Dar ul Harb to Dar ul Islam!!

Nothing succeeds like a good strong dose of religion as a platform.

9/11 happened. The superpower was brought to its heel. Admit it or not, it did give many a sense of achievement and satisfaction since it assauged the moral hurt of decades.

However, what was not catered for was the swift retribution since possibly it was expected that the US with democracy's informities would be totally a loss and wrangling amongst themselves.

The US retribution took the form of "War against Terror".

As was feared by the militants or terrorists, if you will, the Islamic govt appaled at being a target of the consequence of US' wrath backflipped! The Islamic masses, torn between the desire for a level playing field and conscience, blinked in confusion.

The rest is history and it is still unfolding.

Now, who organised the mujahideens?

Read the Bible "The Bear Trap" by Brig Mhammedd Yousaf (Jang Publisher, Lahore) of the ISI and 'its supplementary' "The Unholy War" by Cooley of ABC.

PS Much can be written, but let history rest its aching bones!

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Since corrections were not posted because 15 minutes had elapsed, here is the corrected version. Please ignore the above post.

Salim, the debate was about national interest and if you look at it, national interest always justifies no matter what the action might be.

Taliban? National Interest. No Taliban? National Interest.

It's a lesson taught to the world by America. As long as its the enemy side that loses, every option is on the table. Pakistan's first, everything else's second.

The issue is " ISI involved in foiling UK terror attack".

That apart, my post was a general comment - the heartsearching. It is applicable to all countries in general and not a J'Accuse. The sad part is that even if I should praise Pakistan, who will shovel out something and coat it to appear as a J' Accuse. :disappointed: Ah! what a fate that hs stricken me.

However, now that you have this interesting sentence, let's analyse it for your sake

Taliban? National Interest. No Taliban? National Interest.

Who organised it? From where did they emerge? From which institutions and from which country? Does that require any answer? Should there not be heart searching?

Now, let's go into the issue of the ISI foiling the terrorists. Commendable and, unless one is cussed, the good work cannot be perfunctorily cast aside with obtuse negativeness.

Yet, one should not hesitate to do soul searching.

The whole issue of the current impetus to what could be described (as nearest feasible) is "Born Aga[n Islam". This manifested itself with the mujahideen's spectacular success against the Soviet, then a global superpower!

This victory was a watershed in Islamic resurgence.

The repeated failures in the Middle East to attempt to establish itself as an entity worthy of Islam's grand military conquests a la Sallahuddin (Saladin) and total failure to address the knotty Palestinian issue, the victory against the Soviets through a non formal combat matrix was adrenalin to Islam. It was necatar to Islam. It gave new meaning to Islamic fervour and salvaged the Islamic prestige in the eyes of the world (at least perceived by the people of the Islamic faith).

To this point, it was perfect since it served everyone's interests.

This victory over the Soviets germinated a spark amongst the more militant elements, who were convinced that if they could defeat a global superpower and that too a regimented one, then it was possible to do so to the other superpower, with all its infirmity of a democracy. Simplistically observed, the logic is flawless. Thus, a war against Communist repression, converted to a militant format against the US and the West and, in their eyes, for good reasons too! After all, Palestine and all other woes of the Islamic world was directly and indirectly attributable to their influence, if nothing else!

Waging war against the US and the West for these militants was not feasible without taking the Islamic population on board since the Islamic governments the world over were "sold" to the US for a variety of reasons and it was essential to ndeutralise them from the Islamic mass. Thus, they gave their militancy a religious colour - Dar ul Harb to Dar ul Islam!!

Nothing succeeds like a good strong dose of religion as a platform.

9/11 happened. The superpower was brought to its heel. Admit it or not, it did give many a sense of achievement and satisfaction since it assauged the moral hurt of decades.

However, what was not catered for was the swift retribution since possibly it was expected that the US with democracy's informities would be totally a loss and wrangling amongst themselves.

The US retribution took the form of "War against Terror".

As was feared by the militants or terrorists, if you will, the Islamic govt appaled at being a target of the consequence of US' wrath backflipped! The Islamic masses, torn between the desire for a level playing field and conscience, blinked in confusion.

The rest is history and it is still unfolding.

Now, who organised the mujahideens?

Read the Bible "The Bear Trap" by Brig Mhammedd Yousaf (Jang Publisher, Lahore) of the ISI and 'its supplementary' "The Unholy War" by Cooley of ABC.

PS Much can be written, but let history rest its aching bones!

 

[Spring Onion]

I'm not saying you're supporting Taliban presently.My question is very simple : Did Pakistan err by supporting Taliban irrespective of American actions?

As Asim said national intrest is above everything.
As for as Taliban are concerned i still say we invited trouble by not supporting them.
We should not had gone all out in this respect as US and Karzai government is now once again contacting them.

It was a with us or against us choice, Jana.

Yes the same is the case with India when US offered her Nuke deal to buy her support over Iran.

its simple the big powers are playing the gam and countries like us have no choice.


Anyway Pakistan had played a central role in saving hundreds of lives by uncovering the plot to blow airlines in England and the world should be gratfull to us for this.

 

[Awesome]

Since corrections were not posted because 15 minutes had elapsed, here is the corrected version. Please ignore the above post.

want me to delete the previous one?

The issue is " ISI involved in foiling UK terror attack".

Coz of national interest.

That apart, my post was a general comment - the heartsearching. It is applicable to all countries in general and not a J'Accuse. The sad part is that even if I should praise Pakistan, who will shovel out something and coat it to appear as a J' Accuse. :disappointed: Ah! what a fate that hs stricken me.

The tragedy!!

Who organised it?

Mullah Omar

From where did they emerge?

Kandahar

From which institutions and from which country?

Almost impossible to say, since we've had a non-existant border between the Pashtun areas. Pashtuns usually end up belonging to both the places. Is their leadership Pakistani? Some dumbasses from Pakistan joined them too, but who was leading them? Who was mindwashing them? Afghanis.

Does that require any answer?

Only if you want to blindly answer "PAKISTAN".

Should there not be heart searching?

Only if you think about what the Afghanis have to go through under the current leaderships available to them. Taliban were bad, NA were/are worse. Our hearts at least chose the lesser evil.

The whole issue of the current impetus to what could be described (as nearest feasible) is "Born Aga[n Islam". This manifested itself with the mujahideen's spectacular success against the Soviet, then a global superpower!

This victory was a watershed in Islamic resurgence.

The repeated failures in the Middle East to attempt to establish itself as an entity worthy of Islam's grand military conquests a la Sallahuddin (Saladin) and total failure to address the knotty Palestinian issue, the victory against the Soviets through a non formal combat matrix was adrenalin to Islam. It was necatar to Islam. It gave new meaning to Islamic fervour and salvaged the Islamic prestige in the eyes of the world (at least perceived by the people of the Islamic faith).

To this point, it was perfect since it served everyone's interests.

This victory over the Soviets germinated a spark amongst the more militant elements, who were convinced that if they could defeat a global superpower and that too a regimented one, then it was possible to do so to the other superpower, with all its infirmity of a democracy. Simplistically observed, the logic is flawless. Thus, a war against Communist repression, converted to a militant format against the US and the West and, in their eyes, for good reasons too! After all, Palestine and all other woes of the Islamic world was directly and indirectly attributable to their influence, if nothing else!

You were commenting on ISI? Where'd your mind wander off to?

Waging war against the US and the West for these militants was not feasible without taking the Islamic population on board since the Islamic governments the world over were "sold" to the US for a variety of reasons and it was essential to ndeutralise them from the Islamic mass. Thus, they gave their militancy a religious colour - Dar ul Harb to Dar ul Islam!!

Some militancies emerge out of greed of personal benefit, like the ones that the Taliban replaced. Only problem was the Taliban supported militancy that emerged out of lunacy, which had great strong ideals of a moral society, but they ended up defining those morals rather than asking the common public.

Third kind emerges out of injustices, mainly oppression, occupation, etc. As in Kashmir's, where freedom is demanded.

Where the first two might use religious fervour to drum up support for their militancy and it'd be wrong, the second kind does not, other than in prayer. This kind of militancy if backed by a political outfit would die as soon as the injustices die.

Heart searching? Hmmm indeed. It has little to do with Dar-ul-harb or Dar-ul-Islam. How can we have a Dar-ul-Harb without a Dar-ul-Islam? Right now its a battle for humanity.

9/11 happened. The superpower was brought to its heel. Admit it or not, it did give many a sense of achievement and satisfaction since it assauged the moral hurt of decades.

Ask the Muslims who have to live through it.

However, what was not catered for was the swift retribution since possibly it was expected that the US with democracy's informities would be totally a loss and wrangling amongst themselves.

If you want to believe that version.

The US retribution took the form of "War against Terror".

Haven't you been paying attention to the US President? It's a war against Islam.

As was feared by the militants or terrorists, if you will, the Islamic govt appaled at being a target of the consequence of US' wrath backflipped! The Islamic masses, torn between the desire for a level playing field and conscience, blinked in confusion.

Finally, back I see.

There was no backflipping. We never gauranteed Taliban an immunity to harbor terrorists that want to attack America. When we asked the Taliban to hand over Osama Bin Laden, they should've complied and all this would not have happened.

They were going against our National Interest. Hence No Taliban.

 

[Awesome]

That apart, my post was a general comment - the heartsearching. It is applicable to all countries in general and not a J'Accuse. The sad part is that even if I should praise Pakistan, who will shovel out something and coat it to appear as a J' Accuse. Ah! what a fate that hs stricken me.

People maintain a vigilant watch, Salim. Once an impression is set, its hard to break free from it.

Heck I believe, challenging the preconception you hold of me is near impossible for my earlier trasngessions just as I will remember yours.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

People maintain a vigilant watch, Salim. Once an impression is set, its hard to break free from it.

Heck I believe, challenging the preconception you hold of me is near impossible for my earlier trasngessions just as I will remember yours.

This post reminds me of Lewis Carol's most interesting line:

“The sun was shining on the sea, Shining with all his might: He did his very best to make The billows smooth and bright - And this was very odd, because it was The middle of the night”

In so far as your reply to my post, a rather shuffle, weave and parry and not addressing the points!

Quote:
The US retribution took the form of "War against Terror".

Haven't you been paying attention to the US President? It's a war against Islam.

In so far as Bush stating that the War on terror being a War on Islam, it is the most ridiculous statement. Are you suggesting General Musharraf, who I believe is a devotee of Islam, is waging war against Islam? Are you suggesting that the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is waging war against Islam?


If this is the opinion and attitude held by the educated people of the Islamic faith, then why Pakistan alone, the world can never combat terrorism. And debunks the theory that is put forward by the Islamic organisations that the "silent majority" is against all this terrorism!

Your statement does disappoint and whatever one may have hoped for that indeed there is a silent majority is now put paid to! I still cling to the hope that there IS a silent majority and you are just a deviation that has come out of the woodwork!
Very disappointing! You sure had fooled many!

Do read the books and then come back with something more authoriative than what appears fine for a blog; meandering and peripheral.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Asim,

Most plot trails lead to Pak
- Cash link to Kashmir
The half-brother of Heather Stewart-Whyte, a British model (in picture), is among the arrested suspects.

Islamabad, Aug. 12 (Agencies): Pervez Musharraf may have earned a pat from Tony Blair but almost every trail in the foiled plot to bomb planes is leading to someone with a Pakistani connection.

Two suspects, variously described as brothers or relatives, arrested in Pakistan and Britain have emerged as key figures in the conspiracy. An al Qaida commander, based in Pakistan and said to be a skilled explosives expert, is being seen as the person who choreographed the plot.

The name of Lashkar-e-Toiba, suspected to be behind a chain of big strikes in India, has also begun to crop up. The trail of the cash meant to be used in the attack is also weaving its way from a British charity, which sent funds for quake relief, to three persons linked to Pakistan-held Kashmir.

Pakistani authorities have arrested seven men and detained 10 more who were questioned today to ascertain whether they were linked to the bombing plan.

The arrest of British citizen Rashid Rauf in Pakistan prompted an associate of his in Karachi to call another man nabbed in Britain, asking him to go ahead with the planned attacks on passenger jets with liquid explosives.

This phone call was intercepted and it helped British security agencies to foil the plot targeting 10 airliners. Rashid’s relative — a report said they are brothers — Tayib Rauf is one of the 24 men arrested in Britain.

Pakistani officials said they were looking for two or three more suspects, including Matiur Rehman, the explosives expert and a senior member of the Lashkar-e-Jhangvi that has links with al Qaida.

Rashid was arrested in an area bordering Afghanistan almost a week before police in London foiled the plot on August 10. Pakistan’s interior minister Aftab Khan Sherpao said: “We arrested him from the border area and on his disclosure, we shared the information with British authorities, which led to further arrests in Britain.”

The money angle is also keeping investigators busy. According to a report, a huge amount was remitted by the charity to the accounts of three individuals.

Two of the recipients are British citizens of Kashmir origin while the third is an Islamabad-based builder, also with roots in Kashmir. All were arrested in the last two weeks from three different locations.

While Islamabad’s cooperation in busting the plot has been appreciated in Britain, the media there has begun to ask why Musharraf has still not addressed issues that foster the growth of extremist elements in Pakistan.

Maybe it is difficult since even the educated is not convinced about Musharraf's motives if one goes by your view that the "War on Terror" of which Pakistan is a front line fighter as claimed by many, including the GoP, is War Against Islam!

Do pause and think.

If it were a War against Islam, would not the western countries send all Islamic folks back to their origin? Have they done so?

If it were a War against Islam, would the West not bombard Islamic countries to Kingdom Come and they have the wherewithal to do so!

Please, let us not let loose with our imagination. And let us not give the impression to those who have not interacted with the Islamic folks and hence do not know them well, that your view is really not a true representation of the educated Islamic folks!

Man, you really surprise.

 

[Neo]

13 August 2006


ISLAMABAD - The Pakistan government feels that although the terror acts in London were prevented after its tip-off to the British authorities, for which Prime Minister Tony Blair phoned to thank President Pervez Musharraf, it is not getting its due.
“We were the ones who busted this plot but it is the British and the Americans who took the credit,” said one senior security official on condition of anonymity, echoing similar anger in much of the Pakistani establishment, The Nation said.
Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz said it was ‘unfortunate’ that due to its geopolitical location, Pakistan was being targeted for its role in terrorism though it was at the forefront of the war on terror.
Aziz told an international conference of jurists: “The war against terror cannot be fought without the support of the judiciary. “Deterrent punishments to those found guilty and quick disposal of terrorism cases will definitely send a clear message not only to the perpetrators of this evil but also convey to the entire world our sincere resolve to root out this menace.”
For their part, Pakistan authorities point to the arrests made in Pakistan and say they played a key role in Britain uncovering a plan to blow up airliners flying to the US.
Political analyst Hasan Askari, former head of political science department at Punjab University in Lahore, said last week's arrests showed there was cooperation between Pakistani and British authorities.
“But on the other hand it increases pressure on Pakistan because this incident shows that radical and extremist cells are still functioning in Pakistan and have transnational linkages.”
Much of the Pakistani establishment links terror with the ongoing conflicts in Iraq and Lebanon.
The News said in an editorial: “America and Britain would be deluding themselves if they think that international terrorism is over. If the plot to bomb ten US-bound airliners hadn't been thwarted in the final stages in London, the venue of the July 7 and July 21 bombings last year, there would certainly have been mass murder on an unimaginable scale. It pointed out: “...what is more important is that both the US and Britain should try and understand what is causing some of their citizens to consider such extreme acts.”
The editorial concluded: “If the bombs are supplied and employed in the battlefield in southern Lebanon, they are unlikely to produce any friendly feeling in the Arab and Muslim world, and the Third World at large, towards the US. The question is for the Americans to ponder deeply and review their policies accordingly, or be prepared for more fanatics bent upon attacking their country with explosive-laden commercial airliners.”

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticleNew.asp?xfile=data/subcontinent/2006/August/subcontinent_August500.xml&section=subcontinent&col=

 

[Neo]

By Zaffar Abbas
BBC News, Islamabad

Pakistan has stepped up security at its own airports



Within hours of Thursday's arrests in Britain of those involved in an alleged plot to hijack and blow-up passenger planes over the Atlantic, Pakistan's name had started to be linked to the events.

Certainly, it is not the first time a link has been established between religious militancy in a foreign land and the extremist groups operating in Pakistan.
But this time around, the way Pakistan's name has figured in the whole episode has been a matter of pride for many in the government.

The difference this time is that
there has also been a high level of co-operation between the British and Pakistani security and intelligence services, leading to arrests in the two countries.

Mixed feelings

Senior Pakistani officials say that this co-operation has been in place since last year's suicide attacks in London.
This has helped in identifying groups and people who could possibly be using young British Muslims of Pakistani descent to carry out suicide missions.

Officials admit that, during the process, the Pakistani intelligence authorities have learnt to withhold information - only leaking details that in their view are necessary or are not going to jeopardise ongoing investigations.

Pakistan's role in the "war on terror" has drawn some criticism at home


Therefore, some observers say, there is a strong possibility that the specific information about the identities of those arrested in Pakistan may have first come out from London or Washington.
Pakistan's role has been acknowledged by the British home secretary and other leaders.

President Pervez Musharraf received praise from President George W Bush after senior al-Qaeda figures such as Khaled Sheikh Mohammed and Abu Zubaydah were arrested and handed over to the US on previous occasions.

But at home, there have been mixed feelings about how President Musharraf and his team have been handling the entire issue of the so-called war on terror.

In the absence of specific information, many of the government's actions are seen as attempts to please the West rather than the people at home.

The continuing military operation against suspected Taleban fighters and their local supporters in the tribal region near the Afghan border has also affected President Musharraf's popularity in the country.

Contentious issues


Despite such criticism, President Musharraf seems determined to pursue the policy of curtailing or eliminating Islamic extremism from Pakistan.

He says it is not being done at the behest of the US or Britain as, he says, it is in Pakistan's own interest.
And in some ways this policy has also become part of his political battle for survival in the wake of growing opposition in the country.

With the president's own election, and that of a new parliament, a little over one year away, the opposition parties have started to get their act together.

There are strong indications that the liberal and Islamic groups may form a joint front to take on the Pakistani military ruler in the coming year.

Analysts say that, in such a situation, President Musharraf may have to look for further support from the West.
But in order to do so, he may have to satisfy them that he is doing the best he can to eliminate the remnants of al-Qaeda from the country.

Still, questions are being asked about the Pakistani Islamic groups that may be fanning trouble in Britain and elsewhere, and the Islamic seminaries or madrassas that have remained the source of extremism both within and outside Pakistan.
The latest episode may have earned President Musharraf some praise, but there are many in the West who still question his sincerity in combating the Taleban, if not al-Qaeda. And this may remain a contentious issue as long as links are found between the Pakistan-based groups and militants operating in other countries, or if the insurgency continues in neighbouring Afghanistan.

 

[Bull]

Sam further more Taliban were supported by US untill they refused to let US pass on Oil remmebr US oil Company there ?

Oil?Oil from where???

Just like they first promoted Usama bt when they themselves felt the burnt he was no more a nice guy

Heres what Asim said ina different context.

When they stopped being nice to us, we stopped being nice to them. National Interest.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Jana,

This oil context has gone over?

What oil?

The TAP?