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Is Turkey the natural ally of the West

waqasmwi

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Turkey was once a bonafide ally of Western powers . Was Using NATO cover, relationship with USA and Israel were very good but than started to shift away from them. Turkey angered USA by getting S-400 and tried to get Russian jets instead of F-35. Relationship with Israel deteriorated.
This second phase lasted very short. Now Turkey is requesting Patriots from USA, now no longer interested in SU-57, reports are that Turkey is coordinating with Israel to conduct airstrikes against Syria. And now wants NATO to hold an emergency meeting over recent killings of Turkish soldiers by Airstrikes of Syria and Russia and Turkey is very angry on Russia.
Why Turkey miscalculated about their natural allies?
 
Turkey was once a bonafide ally of Western powers . Was Using NATO cover, relationship with USA and Israel were very good but than started to shift away from them. Turkey angered USA by getting S-400 and tried to get Russian jets instead of F-35. Relationship with Israel deteriorated.
This second phase lasted very short. Now Turkey is requesting Patriots from USA, now no longer interested in SU-57, reports are that Turkey is coordinating with Israel to conduct airstrikes against Syria. And now wants NATO to hold an emergency meeting over recent killings of Turkish soldiers by Airstrikes of Syria and Russia and Turkey is very angry on Russia.
Why Turkey miscalculated about their natural allies?

because they are not allies to anyone ... they just want maximizing their own gain ... just like Shah in his late years which didn't end well for him because when he needed all his former allies didn't help him ...
 
Turkey was once a bonafide ally of Western powers . Was Using NATO cover, relationship with USA and Israel were very good but than started to shift away from them. Turkey angered USA by getting S-400 and tried to get Russian jets instead of F-35. Relationship with Israel deteriorated.
This second phase lasted very short. Now Turkey is requesting Patriots from USA, now no longer interested in SU-57, reports are that Turkey is coordinating with Israel to conduct airstrikes against Syria. And now wants NATO to hold an emergency meeting over recent killings of Turkish soldiers by Airstrikes of Syria and Russia and Turkey is very angry on Russia.
Why Turkey miscalculated about their natural allies?
Ah, Turkey being a natural ally of the West? Never in reality. And from both sides. Turkey was not included in EU despite repeated efforts and requests from Turkey. Why? Europeans are not dumb. They know it very well how historically Turkey and they have been on opposite sides as active enemies. It was just the secular rulers of Turkey who were dying for EU membership. Now those rulers are a part of the past. Turkey was, is, and will be a leading member of Muslim world. That doesn't really mean that Turkey and the West will necessarily be enemies but they wouldn't be allies of each other either.
 
Turkey was once a bonafide ally of Western powers . Was Using NATO cover, relationship with USA and Israel were very good but than started to shift away from them. Turkey angered USA by getting S-400 and tried to get Russian jets instead of F-35. Relationship with Israel deteriorated.
This second phase lasted very short. Now Turkey is requesting Patriots from USA, now no longer interested in SU-57, reports are that Turkey is coordinating with Israel to conduct airstrikes against Syria. And now wants NATO to hold an emergency meeting over recent killings of Turkish soldiers by Airstrikes of Syria and Russia and Turkey is very angry on Russia.
Why Turkey miscalculated about their natural allies?

Turkey was playing a double-game and lost both sides. Turkey alienated US/EU/Israel by courting Russia. Then alienated Russia by attacking Syrian Army. What a gross miscalculation by Erdogan.
 
Russia is Syria and China Ally only
Russia have proved itself to be untrustworthy. Shame on Russia.

Pakistan, please take notes.

How ?
Turkey destroyed Russian Jet in Past,
Even it was ready to fight with Russia, but NATO did not help him,

Now Turkey invaded Syria, purchases S-400,
Turkey want, Russia should be out of Syria,

Turkey with other NATO countries, US and Some Arab countries supporting ISIS, Nusra Front (Al Qaeda)want to conquer Syria only for PIPELINE,

Russia, Iran helping Syria to eliminate Proxies of West and Arabs for PIPELINE too

https://www.middleeasteye.net/big-story/pipelineistan-conspiracy-war-syria-has-never-been-about-gas
 
Regardless of East and West, Turkey wants alliance with everybody and threatens them at the same time. Can you make allies if you point a gun to the heads of the very same people whom you want as your allies ? You threatened someone yesterday and ask for help today. Then you threaten again tomorrow. This is not how the world works. This is a very dangerous and self destructive attitude for any country.
When people become too suicidal, they stop thinking and acting logically.
 
Regardless of East and West, Turkey wants alliance with everybody and threatens them at the same time. Can you make allies if you point a gun to the heads of the very same people whom you want as your allies ? You threatened someone yesterday and ask for help today. Then you threaten again tomorrow. This is not how the world works. This is a very dangerous and self destructive attitude for any country.
When people become too suicidal, they stop thinking and acting logically.

Turkey is still a good foot soilder for the American imperialists and her empire,the thing is the whole flirtation with China and Russia espacilly was temporary it was because Tayyip was being a opportunist he is looking to save his throne but I think he may as well used all the cards and will be targeted soon

*PS-Its kinda shameful how Pakistanis attack Arabs and Iranians for being hegemonic and "imperial" in their ambitions which is kinda true but to say Turkey is "liberating" " and a "savior" of the Mid East and Muslim world is down right prospotrious and hypocritical,but I could understand why Pakistanis as as state have always been poor yet effective soilders for first British later American imperialism they envy for Turkey for all those nice shiny toys and weapons they get and economy as part of the American and Western Imperial order

@Old School
 
Turkey is still a good foot soilder for the American imperialists and her empire,the thing is the whole flirtation with China and Russia espacilly was temporary it was because Tayyip was being a opportunist he is looking to save his throne but I think he may as well used all the cards and will be targeted soon

*PS-Its kinda shameful how Pakistanis attack Arabs and Iranians for being hegemonic and "imperial" in their ambitions which is kinda true but to say Turkey is "liberating" " and a "savior" of the Mid East and Muslim world is down right prospotrious and hypocritical,but I could understand why Pakistanis as as state have always been poor yet effective soilders for first British later American imperialism they envy for Turkey for all those nice shiny toys and weapons they get and economy as part of the American and Western Imperial order

@Old School
Agree.
When Iraq destroyed, Egypt in bad shape, Iran sanctioned, Erdogan found opportunities. I don't blame Erdogan, he has ambitions which is good for Turkey, but his internal and foreign police is quite risky.
Turkey can deal with lions when back was safe, now who is backing Turkey? Only Turkey herself.
When the stakes are high, Erdogan can NOT make any more mistakes.
 
Here's what I think.

Firstly, you have to realize that the area you are calling Turkey but has been under quite a few names, classically Anatolia is a region naturally suited for conflict. It is a natural pathway between Asia and Europe. Thus, it would be contested and if you look at history, you'd see it is to be the case. However, the Turkish civilization has never been keen on just being a bridge: they wanted to be a power and throughout history, they've reasonably accomplished the goal.

That tendency has never died down. After the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire and emergence of the current iteration of Turkey; they weren't keen on just being a pawn. They wanted to be a power but at the time, Turkey was in a bit of a unique position. You see, the decolonialization period saw the infusion of regional-religious-ethnic nationalism: the rise of PanArabism and Pan-Islamism. Turkey was a forward looking nation, joining it were two other key players, Pakistan and Iran. That's why they aligned with the West and regionally cooperated because they couldn't ride the same surge. Turkey's foreign policy was in contrast to the world; it recognized Israel and tried a more tactful solution to the problem. The reason may have seemed counterproductive at the time; why was Turkey alienating culturally closer allies for a potential rival in the region for allies who are not working for their complete interests? The answer was simple, Turkey wanted to pursue an independent course of action.

Secondly, you have to take into account what the world has become geopolitically. There are clear cut dominating powers under a fascade of appropriated power to various nations of the world. However, that's not the case, if you stand against any regionally aligned nation, you'd bring in the big bosses of the game. Disturb Israel's interests, have the US on your back. Take out Syrian targets and have Russia knocking at your door. Back a militia and have either one of the sectarian/ethnically divided power curb you. Therefore, every move would have ended up making things harder for the Turks no matter what action they pursued. In that scenario, they've done the ballsiest move: they went for their interests over all others and ended up disturbing everyone. I think this move does two things, first of all, it keeps Turkey aligned internally under the status quo leadership structure because of an external pressure. Additionally, it taps into the strenght of the Turkish national character and that's pride (due to their ability to pursue independent actions).

Third, being a very neutral assessor of the situation, I wouldn't call it a bad move. You see, in order to appease everyone in this situation and play it ultra tactfully would be hard at this moment in time. The world is experiecning a right wing reflux: Russia, USA and some of the West is being ruled by strongmen. The Turkish government is used to dealing with a more tactful opponent but tact breaks down with such a leadership if you're not coming on strong since the start. Strength talks here. That's why Turkey seems to pursue a shift of cooperation between smaller regional powers instead of the big players. This is a brilliant move because the major powers of the world back regional powers in one way or another and cannot afford to destablize regional status quo. Therefore, smaller cooperative and economic ties may play out well in the end. Instead of having one big supplier who monopolizes things, why not have many smaller suppliers and thus have versatility? I think Turkey is feeling confident enough in its ability to handle things and is exercising this change in strategy to see how far they can push it.

Fourthly, look at this way as well. Which nation was the best military power in the NATO alliance? The USA. Which one after that? The UK. Ever since 2016 these two have de facto left NATO or at least are perceived to be relatively independent now. Which nation should take up the mantle? Germany but their history and continuous strategy has been the exact opposite of becoming a military power; plus, France is weary of a stronger Germany. What threatens Europe? Russia. Whoever faces the Russians and proves to the world that they can hold the giant at bay would automatically take a central role to Europe's future. If Turkey can play an independent policy and antagonize Russia while engaging in a military operation (let's face it this has become a proxy war more than a civil war) and tricking the Americans to support them on Turkey's rather than the US's term. Then Turkey would be in a position to reorient the direction in which Europe is headed. If Turkey pulls this off, they may take an important powerful position, which I believe is their intent all this while.

Hence, I believe that the situation should be monitored to see what's going to happen. I hope whatever does that the region experiences peace after a very long time.

Regards!
Turkey was once a bonafide ally of Western powers . Was Using NATO cover, relationship with USA and Israel were very good but than started to shift away from them. Turkey angered USA by getting S-400 and tried to get Russian jets instead of F-35. Relationship with Israel deteriorated.
This second phase lasted very short. Now Turkey is requesting Patriots from USA, now no longer interested in SU-57, reports are that Turkey is coordinating with Israel to conduct airstrikes against Syria. And now wants NATO to hold an emergency meeting over recent killings of Turkish soldiers by Airstrikes of Syria and Russia and Turkey is very angry on Russia.
Why Turkey miscalculated about their natural allies?
 
Here's what I think.

Firstly, you have to realize that the area you are calling Turkey but has been under quite a few names, classically Anatolia is a region naturally suited for conflict. It is a natural pathway between Asia and Europe. Thus, it would be contested and if you look at history, you'd see it is to be the case. However, the Turkish civilization has never been keen on just being a bridge: they wanted to be a power and throughout history, they've reasonably accomplished the goal.

That tendency has never died down. After the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire and emergence of the current iteration of Turkey; they weren't keen on just being a pawn. They wanted to be a power but at the time, Turkey was in a bit of a unique position. You see, the decolonialization period saw the infusion of regional-religious-ethnic nationalism: the rise of PanArabism and Pan-Islamism. Turkey was a forward looking nation, joining it were two other key players, Pakistan and Iran. That's why they aligned with the West and regionally cooperated because they couldn't ride the same surge. Turkey's foreign policy was in contrast to the world; it recognized Israel and tried a more tactful solution to the problem. The reason may have seemed counterproductive at the time; why was Turkey alienating culturally closer allies for a potential rival in the region for allies who are not working for their complete interests? The answer was simple, Turkey wanted to pursue an independent course of action.

Secondly, you have to take into account what the world has become geopolitically. There are clear cut dominating powers under a fascade of appropriated power to various nations of the world. However, that's not the case, if you stand against any regionally aligned nation, you'd bring in the big bosses of the game. Disturb Israel's interests, have the US on your back. Take out Syrian targets and have Russia knocking at your door. Back a militia and have either one of the sectarian/ethnically divided power curb you. Therefore, every move would have ended up making things harder for the Turks no matter what action they pursued. In that scenario, they've done the ballsiest move: they went for their interests over all others and ended up disturbing everyone. I think this move does two things, first of all, it keeps Turkey aligned internally under the status quo leadership structure because of an external pressure. Additionally, it taps into the strenght of the Turkish national character and that's pride (due to their ability to pursue independent actions).

Third, being a very neutral assessor of the situation, I wouldn't call it a bad move. You see, in order to appease everyone in this situation and play it ultra tactfully would be hard at this moment in time. The world is experiecning a right wing reflux: Russia, USA and some of the West is being ruled by strongmen. The Turkish government is used to dealing with a more tactful opponent but tact breaks down with such a leadership if you're not coming on strong since the start. Strength talks here. That's why Turkey seems to pursue a shift of cooperation between smaller regional powers instead of the big players. This is a brilliant move because the major powers of the world back regional powers in one way or another and cannot afford to destablize regional status quo. Therefore, smaller cooperative and economic ties may play out well in the end. Instead of having one big supplier who monopolizes things, why not have many smaller suppliers and thus have versatility? I think Turkey is feeling confident enough in its ability to handle things and is exercising this change in strategy to see how far they can push it.

Fourthly, look at this way as well. Which nation was the best military power in the NATO alliance? The USA. Which one after that? The UK. Ever since 2016 these two have de facto left NATO or at least are perceived to be relatively independent now. Which nation should take up the mantle? Germany but their history and continuous strategy has been the exact opposite of becoming a military power; plus, France is weary of a stronger Germany. What threatens Europe? Russia. Whoever faces the Russians and proves to the world that they can hold the giant at bay would automatically take a central role to Europe's future. If Turkey can play an independent policy and antagonize Russia while engaging in a military operation (let's face it this has become a proxy war more than a civil war) and tricking the Americans to support them on Turkey's rather than the US's term. Then Turkey would be in a position to reorient the direction in which Europe is headed. If Turkey pulls this off, they may take an important powerful position, which I believe is their intent all this while.

Hence, I believe that the situation should be monitored to see what's going to happen. I hope whatever does that the region experiences peace after a very long time.

Regards!

The only sane and smart analysis ive seen here. The reat of pdfers have judged erdogan and Turkey to be dumb and advise it to return soldiers. Iranians who themselves are puppets now adviaing Turkey.
Its also need of the time that Turkey shows its military might and scares the puppets in syria and elsewhere. Turkey is persuing an independent policy and it is something to be proud of. Sadly many are mental slaves here who think Turkey is isolated and doomed.
 
I believe Turkey's original plan to invade Syria was a calculated move to get NATO, particularly the US involved. They have even used false flag operations on Syria such as the controversy surrounding the Tomb of Suleyman Shah

https://internationalman.com/articles/why-turkey-was-planning-a-false-flag-operation-in-syria/

Why Turkey Was Planning a False Flag Operation in Syria

by Nick Giambruno


You’ve probably heard about the recent leaked conversations involving Turkey.

It was stunning to hear the highest-ranking Turks causally discussing how to provoke a false flag incident that would justify a large military intervention in Syria.

This is a big deal because Turkish troops in Syria opens the door to NATO troops in Syria, which drastically expands the conflict.

As someone who has spent a number of years living and working in the Middle East, and having been to Syria multiple times, I was encouraged by my colleagues at Casey Research to share my perspective on this.

In case you didn’t know, a false flag is an incident that is designed to deceive people into thinking it was actually carried out by someone else.

It’s like the scene in the movie Fast Times at Ridgemont High. There’s a character who plays on the high school football team and has a fancy sports car. Later, his little brother’s friend accidentally trashes this car. Terrified at how the big brother could respond, they come up with a clever plan to shift the blame on someone else. They make it look like a rival football team vandalized the car, decorating it in the rival team’s colors and slogans. The plan works—the big brother is tricked into thinking that a rival football team trashed his car instead of the little brother.

This is the essence of a false flag, and the same tactic is used by the world’s militaries and intelligence services to nefarious effect. Many believe the Reichstag fire incident that allowed Hitler to drastically expand his power was a false flag operation.

So, why would the Turks propose doing such a thing in Syria?

To answer that question, we need to sift through the complexities of the Syrian situation.

First, the Syrian rebels are divided into mostly Salafi Islamists and secularists, or what was once known as the Free Syrian Army. As things stand right now, the latter is essentially irrelevant and has little influence on the ground—a reality that the Obama administration stubbornly refuses to acknowledge. The Salafi Islamists are the real power of the opposition and can be divided into roughly three groups.

1. The Islamic Front: This is the so-called “moderate” or “mainstream” group and is supported mostly by Saudi Arabia, but also by Turkey and Qatar. It’s the largest group in terms of men, but not necessarily the most militarily effective.

2. The Nusra Front: This is the official Al Qaeda franchise in Syria. It’s more radical, known for beheadings and suicide attacks, and is supported by wealthy individuals in the Gulf and allegedly to some degree from Qatar. Al Nusra also widely coordinates its activities with the Islamic Front. This leads many to question whether there’s any meaningful distinction between the two groups, other than giving the latter a “mainstream” veneer to potential Western backers.

3. ISIL: This stands for the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant. These guys are so hardcore that even Al Qaeda disavowed them, as their brutal tactics have alienated many locals. But that doesn’t mean they aren’t powerful on the ground, though. In fact, they control a huge swath of territory that stretches from eastern Syria into the Iraqi city of Fallujah, which for all intents and purposes is a distinct yet unrecognized political entity controlled by these guys.

Now back to the Turkish situation.

Turkey owns a very small piece of territory inside of Syria that dates back to the Ottoman Empire. This small piece of land is the tomb of Suleyman Shah, a relative of one of the founding Ottomans. It’s guarded by 24 Turkish troops and is considered sovereign Turkish territory.

140402image1.jpg


Having Turkish troops in this area is not controversial, as the Syrian government has long agreed to it.

The region where this tomb is located has totally fallen out of the Syrian government’s control for many months. And now, the hardcore ISIL group controls the surrounding area. It has threatened the Turkish soldiers and told them to leave. The Turks refused, and that’s why the Turkish government is getting skittish.

This is where the leaked tape comes in.

The conversation started out with the Turks talking about how they can protect this tomb from ISIL. This is not controversial. I don’t believe the Syrian government would care about the Turks intervening to protect the tomb, since this is an area where it has lost control anyways. Plus, I’d bet the Syrian government would be happy to see the Turks bogged down fighting ISIL militants who’d otherwise be fighting them.

However, that was not the end of the conversation. The really sinister part comes when the high-ranking Turks talk about how easy it would be to create a false flag incident involving the tomb, and how they could use that to justify a much wider military intervention inside Syria.

Such an incident would be a sort of foot in the door to further military activities inside Syria and would allow the Turks to help their favored rebel groups, which have seen serious setbacks lately.

That step would clearly cause them to go to war with the Syrian government and drastically expand the conflict. And once Turkey is involved inside Syria, that opens the door for NATO to be involved.

The Erdogan government has staked a huge amount of domestic political capital by supporting the Syrian rebels. They gambled that their favored rebel groups would quickly win and as a result, Turkey would have more geopolitical influence in a post-Assad Syria. It was a losing bet. Turkey’s favored rebels have seriously faltered, and a growing number of Turkish voters have become skeptical of their government’s intervention and the blowback it’s causing.

A false flag incident with the tomb would be a way for Erdogan to double down in a desperate attempt to turn things around in Syria. Whoever leaked this conversation clearly timed it to take the wind out the sails of such a strategy.

There are only a few people with the capability and motivation to do this. As an ally of the Syrian government, Russian intelligence is at the top of that list. They have leaked similarly shocking private conversations in Ukraine recently. Members of the Turkish military opposed to Erdogan could have also done it.

Instead of coming up with a classy way of saying “touché,” the Turkish government responded by throwing a childish fit, futilely trying to block YouTube and Twitter.

In this digital age, restricting Internet access, seizing and spying on digital data, and otherwise tampering with an individual’s digital presence have become new tools in the traditional toolbox of desperate governments.

Fortunately, mitigating this risk is relatively easy by diversifying your digital presence internationally. In our Going Global publication, we have a comprehensive and actionable section on how to do just that. Whether it’s setting up an offshore email service or cloud file storage, to moving the components of your personal and business websites abroad, using secure encryption, or using a VPN to disguise which country you are accessing the Internet from to get past government blocks, Going Global covers it all.

While the actions of the Turkish government are pathetic and largely obsolete, that doesn’t mean other governments with much greater capabilities won’t try similar things. If we’ve learned anything over the past year, it’s that the NSA and the US government are very much in the business of trying to undermine your digital rights.

Internationalizing your digital presence is the solution. You will secure your privacy and ensure that no government can pull the plug on your digital life.
 
Here's what I think.

Firstly, you have to realize that the area you are calling Turkey but has been under quite a few names, classically Anatolia is a region naturally suited for conflict. It is a natural pathway between Asia and Europe. Thus, it would be contested and if you look at history, you'd see it is to be the case. However, the Turkish civilization has never been keen on just being a bridge: they wanted to be a power and throughout history, they've reasonably accomplished the goal.

That tendency has never died down. After the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire and emergence of the current iteration of Turkey; they weren't keen on just being a pawn. They wanted to be a power but at the time, Turkey was in a bit of a unique position. You see, the decolonialization period saw the infusion of regional-religious-ethnic nationalism: the rise of PanArabism and Pan-Islamism. Turkey was a forward looking nation, joining it were two other key players, Pakistan and Iran. That's why they aligned with the West and regionally cooperated because they couldn't ride the same surge. Turkey's foreign policy was in contrast to the world; it recognized Israel and tried a more tactful solution to the problem. The reason may have seemed counterproductive at the time; why was Turkey alienating culturally closer allies for a potential rival in the region for allies who are not working for their complete interests? The answer was simple, Turkey wanted to pursue an independent course of action.

Secondly, you have to take into account what the world has become geopolitically. There are clear cut dominating powers under a fascade of appropriated power to various nations of the world. However, that's not the case, if you stand against any regionally aligned nation, you'd bring in the big bosses of the game. Disturb Israel's interests, have the US on your back. Take out Syrian targets and have Russia knocking at your door. Back a militia and have either one of the sectarian/ethnically divided power curb you. Therefore, every move would have ended up making things harder for the Turks no matter what action they pursued. In that scenario, they've done the ballsiest move: they went for their interests over all others and ended up disturbing everyone. I think this move does two things, first of all, it keeps Turkey aligned internally under the status quo leadership structure because of an external pressure. Additionally, it taps into the strenght of the Turkish national character and that's pride (due to their ability to pursue independent actions).

Third, being a very neutral assessor of the situation, I wouldn't call it a bad move. You see, in order to appease everyone in this situation and play it ultra tactfully would be hard at this moment in time. The world is experiecning a right wing reflux: Russia, USA and some of the West is being ruled by strongmen. The Turkish government is used to dealing with a more tactful opponent but tact breaks down with such a leadership if you're not coming on strong since the start. Strength talks here. That's why Turkey seems to pursue a shift of cooperation between smaller regional powers instead of the big players. This is a brilliant move because the major powers of the world back regional powers in one way or another and cannot afford to destablize regional status quo. Therefore, smaller cooperative and economic ties may play out well in the end. Instead of having one big supplier who monopolizes things, why not have many smaller suppliers and thus have versatility? I think Turkey is feeling confident enough in its ability to handle things and is exercising this change in strategy to see how far they can push it.

Fourthly, look at this way as well. Which nation was the best military power in the NATO alliance? The USA. Which one after that? The UK. Ever since 2016 these two have de facto left NATO or at least are perceived to be relatively independent now. Which nation should take up the mantle? Germany but their history and continuous strategy has been the exact opposite of becoming a military power; plus, France is weary of a stronger Germany. What threatens Europe? Russia. Whoever faces the Russians and proves to the world that they can hold the giant at bay would automatically take a central role to Europe's future. If Turkey can play an independent policy and antagonize Russia while engaging in a military operation (let's face it this has become a proxy war more than a civil war) and tricking the Americans to support them on Turkey's rather than the US's term. Then Turkey would be in a position to reorient the direction in which Europe is headed. If Turkey pulls this off, they may take an important powerful position, which I believe is their intent all this while.

Hence, I believe that the situation should be monitored to see what's going to happen. I hope whatever does that the region experiences peace after a very long time.

Regards!

Everybody knows Anatolia is Panipat of Eurasia.

Iranians are just denying the Turks the soft power projection which carries a military gain.

Syria is the Afghanistan I prefer as far away from Pakistan as it physically possible.

There is no winner in this apart from academics
 
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