Is the Chinese JH-7 an Answer to the Pakistan Air Force’s Deep Strike Needs?

[Enigma SIG]

Why get a dedicated strike platform when you can go for turboprop drones with long time on target for less than 1/4th the cost? Advantages are:

1- No pilot in harms way
2- Load up multiple drones and wreak havoc with the SA of the defenders
3- Turboprops are easier to run and maintain; and would naturally fit within PAF's overall strategy

 

[Zarvan]

There was a time when @Zarvan used to cry out his lungs Su35 coming, Su35 coming

And I can assure you chances are still there. And I shared this article not because I believe J 7 is coming but least a debate is starting and J 7 or any other similar jet if come will come as replacement for MIRAGES not to answer Rafael and for Rafael yes we need a answer like SU 35 or EF or J 16

 

[Blacklight]

There was a time when @Zarvan used to cry out his lungs Su35 coming, Su35 coming

He was not wrong, there was some actual interest from PAF, and they did explore that option, why it did not pan out, is something most fanboys will not be able to digest.

 

[The Accountant]

And I can assure you chances are still there. And I shared this article not because I believe J 7 is coming but least a debate is starting and J 7 or any other similar jet if come will come as replacement for MIRAGES not to answer Rafael and for Rafael yes we need a answer like SU 35 or EF or J 16

SU35 is not an answer to Rafael. There is a difference in advertised performance and actual performance of russian planes plus they are maintenance nightmare.

On a side note what is estimated cost of buying a single JH7 and what is the cost of integration ?

Kindly note that PN need no more than 2 squadron of strike aircraft. The cost of integration of 2 squadrons per aircraft will be very high and I bet at such a cost you can buy atleast double quantity of thunder with much higher capabilities.

Why get a dedicated strike platform when you can go for turboprop drones with long time on target for less than 1/4th the cost? Advantages are:

1- No pilot in harms way
2- Load up multiple drones and wreak havoc with the SA of the defenders
3- Turboprops are easier to run and maintain; and would naturally fit within PAF's overall strategy

Good suggestion and in time of desperation can turn into kamakaze type of attack as well

 

[capricorn5192]

Something far better has been offered by china to pakistan for deep strike mission. We await its maturity and availability of funds. Jh-7B is old now. Pakistan has its sights set on 2030 and beyond. It's also inhouse assembly.

Please eloborate

 

[Enigma SIG]

Good suggestion and in time of desperation can turn into kamakaze type of attack as well

Pakistan needs out of the box solutions. Deep strike aircraft are not affordable by any means and the strategies needed to get results out of these assets means tying up further assets that may be needed for other roles.

What PAF needs is a new arm which operates drones and decoys as part of an offensive/defensive strategy which would be linked with the main AD network.

Decoys can be used to get useful enemy data on the cheap while drones can be used as "missile trucks". They can be used in large numbers to overwhelm enemy AD networks and confuse them on actual strike packages.

 

[RIP Pak LAW]

He was not wrong, there was some actual interest from PAF, and they did explore that option, why it did not pan out, is something most fanboys will not be able to digest.

PAF checked out rafale much before iaf yet we didnt went for it... Checking out doesn't mean we are buying the plane. We even shown much greater interest in J10s a decade back yet we don't have them in our inventory.

The only plane paf wants is F16. Rest are just speculations and fan boy wishes.

 

[The Accountant]

PAF checked out rafale much before iaf yet we didnt went for it... Checking out doesn't mean we are buying the plane. We even shown much greater interest in J10s a decade back yet we don't have them in our inventory.

The only plane paf wants is F16. Rest are just speculations and fan boy wishes.

Its not like we want F16 only. Who would mind getting Rafael, EF, F15, F35 of F31 in replacement of F16s? The issue is the cost element and related utility. The cost of just integration of any new platform will be no less than 2 to 3 billion USD. which is cost of 1 to 1. squadron of F16s. Plus training and integration time will be no less than 3 to 5 years. Now in a time period where we have to induct fifth generation aircraft in a decade can we afford to invest 6 to 8 billion on getting 2 squadrons of a new fighter?

The logical way is to somehow get upgradation of F16s or get few more F16s as a stop gap and focus on Project Azm that will be our front line fighter free from clutches of US and even China.

So we are vulnerable in short run (after arrival of Rafael) to achieve medium term advantage which will be lasting one.

Furthermore, if somehow we get Viper upgrade and block 3 is up and running we will have similar capabilities as any other top range 4+ generation fighter have.

 

[RIP Pak LAW]

Its not like we want F16 only. Who would mind getting Rafael, EF, F15, F35 of F31 in replacement of F16s? The issue is the cost element and related utility. The cost of just integration of any new platform will be no less than 2 to 3 billion USD. which is cost of 1 to 1. squadron of F16s. Plus training and integration time will be no less than 3 to 5 years. Now in a time period where we have to induct fifth generation aircraft in a decade can we afford to invest 6 to 8 billion on getting 2 squadrons of a new fighter?

The logical way is to somehow get upgradation of F16s or get few more F16s as a stop gap and focus on Project Azm that will be our front line fighter free from clutches of US and even China.

So we are vulnerable in short run (after arrival of Rafael) to achieve medium term advantage which will be lasting one.

Furthermore, if somehow we get Viper upgrade and block 3 is up and running we will have similar capabilities as any other top range 4+ generation fighter have.

Yes that's why induction of su35 or any other plane other than F16 doesn't make much sense keeping our budget limitations in mind F16 V should be something which we should look only and always. Meanwhile get the best suite package for Jf17 block 3. This is probably our next 10 years goal and hopes to make some tangible progress thru over rated project Azm.

 

[Armchair]

And I can assure you chances are still there. And I shared this article not because I believe J 7 is coming but least a debate is starting and J 7 or any other similar jet if come will come as replacement for MIRAGES not to answer Rafael and for Rafael yes we need a answer like SU 35 or EF or J 16

Something else may be coming. 54 units or more. 3 squadrons that can shoot very very long ranged missiles. Apparently very very very soon.

What PAF needs is a new arm which operates drones and decoys as part of an offensive/defensive strategy which would be linked with the main AD network.

Decoys can be used to get useful enemy data on the cheap while drones can be used as "missile trucks". They can be used in large numbers to overwhelm enemy AD networks and confuse them on actual strike packages.

Thanks for an interesting idea. I have had thoughts in parallel to urs. I had this idea long ago that one could build "cheap flying replicas of JF-17s. Basically for all expensive parts build cheap, local copies that function at a basic level. They would look like JF-17s and fly, just not perform as well. They are both decoys and missile carriers, and can be used to confuse the enemy.

Use plastic, aluminum and steel. Yes, they won't fly supersonic and won't do 3Gs even. But will totally confuse the enemy both on the ground and in the air.

 

[Blacklight]

PAF checked out rafale much before iaf yet we didnt went for it... Checking out doesn't mean we are buying the plane. We even shown much greater interest in J10s a decade back yet we don't have them in our inventory.

The only plane paf wants is F16. Rest are just speculations and fan boy wishes.

No the Su-35 was not checked out, it was actually considered, but the T&C's could not be agreed upon, hence dropped.

Something else may be coming. 54 units or more. 3 squadrons that can shoot very very long ranged missiles. Apparently very very very soon.

Are you referring to the J15?

 

[Akh1112]

No, H-20 is subsonic based on flying wing design (again my only source for this is google). I have noticed that all the flying wings so far are subsonic.
What I had in mind was something similar to Avro Vulcan but with a clean delta and minimal vertical fins. Something with low RCS but also able to fly supersonic.



Regardless of how capable surface and subsurface force we are building, one cannot deny the need for capable air assets. But I think we need a specialized strike platform. Such platform is equally important as a submarine or a frigate.

And we have them... Mirage V's with exocets

 

[RJV]

And we have them... Mirage V's with exocets

No, Please read my post again. Mirage V was not built with low RCS in mind. Exocet and fuel tanks are on external pylons causing aerodynamic drag and increase in radar signature. Plus its combat range is around 1250 KM.
Refer to my original post, i have discussed features of new platform in details.

 

[Akh1112]

No, Please read my post again. Mirage V was not built with low RCS in mind. Exocet and fuel tanks are on external pylons causing aerodynamic drag and increase in radar signature. Plus its combat range is around 1250 KM.
Refer to my original post, i have discussed features of new platform in details.

I mean, low RCS is kind of irrelevant in this situation since Exocets can be launched beyond the range of enemy SAM's. Alongside that you can fly low to avoid detection sooner. Aerodynamic drag is irrelevant since the aircraft can still perform its task. Doesnt need to have a massive range, we are a defensive force, we need to protect our EEZ, i dont see anything much further being need to be defended

 

[RJV]

I mean, low RCS is kind of irrelevant in this situation since Exocets can be launched beyond the range of enemy SAM's. Alongside that you can fly low to avoid detection sooner. Aerodynamic drag is irrelevant since the aircraft can still perform its task. Doesnt need to have a massive range, we are a defensive force, we need to protect our EEZ, i dont see anything much further being need to be defended

Look nothing personal, I am not arguing for the sake of it. First how many Exocet can be carried by a Mirage V? Second how will Mirage acquire target? Radar? how big radar it can carry considering that it is relatively small fighter with limited space in nose.
Air launched Exocet under optimal conditions has range of 70 KM. Anti air missile like Barak 8 can definitely reach this range so it is not as simple as firing ASh missile outside of enemy ship air defense range.

In today's world firing a single ASh missile on a ship will have low probability of success based on improvements in missile defense systems. To improve probability of kill, you need to increase the number of missiles fired at a target. So you need platforms that can carry two or more missiles. now you can argue this by saying that instead of one such platform we can have two or more mirage Vs. But that will add other issues as coordinating an attach while keeping radio silence....

That is the whole reason this discussion for JH-7 was started. My point of view is just that the requirement is very much real but JH-7 is not the answer. We need a new platform which can also be used for other roles.

Thanks a lot for your input.