Is Pakistan moving towards a Civil Disobedience Movement ?

[Khan vilatey]

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A picture worth pondering over - (please don't pontificate with the usual party line come-backs here). In line with the spirit of Pakistan and defending it as demonstrated in this photo, our national institutions must also be protected (do your politics but don't bring these institutions into unnecessary controversy). They are pivotal for the survival of Pakistan as a nation-state otherwise think Libya, Iraq, and Afghanistan, God forbid!

Profound picture…. With a lot meaning to it.

I see a Pakistani taking back his country, some would see the country protecting itself from change to the status quo since this change will leave us exposed, militarily, finically and even in some case morally.

The question really is are we ready for real change and the cost it will bear on our fabric, will we start to question sacred Army or is there going to be a sacred country that defines itself.

Case and point, when the nuclear tests were done the world sanctioned us yet we survived and became stronger, when we as a country were born in 1947 we had nothing , my grandfater who was a goverment servent working for Quaid - e-Azam tells us that bibi Fatima Jinnah used to hide the sugar pot as we did not have enough so it may be served to government guests, a nation with 40-50 million migrants and no economy. We survived with josh and jazba as we had all burnt our boats. I see this once again.

I have disdaine for imran khan I think he is very incompetent but it seems Allah is using him for a higher purpose to free us once and for all. Do you know that then major Musharraf a sharabi kababi saved the khana-e- kaba from terrorists and brought it back in control, those who had promised to attempt to blow it up.


There is something bigger afoot. We are all witnessing how the best Planner Allah shows a sliver of his plans.

Wait friend and see what unfolds

K

 

[Sayfullah]

Also, what is the Salafi Criteria to Justify rebellion against a ruler?

1. I’m not salafi
2. If it’s sure they can remove a evil and ensure a righteous leader replaces it without leading to a greater evil or mass bloodshed.
The point is to avoid greater harm and greater evil. Civil war will do more harm then the tyrannical ruler would do.

 

[Thinker3]

Ahmad Ibn Hanbal (d. 241H) stated in his work, Usūlus-Sunnah as is recorded in Sharhu Usūlil-I’tiqād of Al-Lālikā’ee (1/161):

“It is not permissible for anyone among the people to fight the ruler and nor to rise up against him. And whosoever does that is an innovator, upon other than the Sunnah and upon other than the Straight Path.”

Shaikh Al-Islām Ibn Taymiyyah (may Allah’s mercy be upon him) said:
“Being patient with the tyranny of the rulers is a fundamental principle (asl) from the fundamentals of Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jamā’ah.” (Majmoo’ Al-Fatāwa 28/179)

Al-Imām Ibn Taymiyyah (d. 728H) stated: “There have not been a people who revolted against their ruler except that their condition after their rebellion was worse than before they rebelled.” (Minhāj As-Sunnah 3/231)

I don't agree with what they said, this is not Quran and Authentic hadith, this is not what Islam teaches, Islam teaches to stand for what is right and strive in the way of Allah. And also according to your above-mentioned hadiths, it will be disobedience to Allah if we accept US slavery and US slaves as our rulers.
I have a question for you If Salafis are against rebellion then why did they rebel against the Ottoman empire with the help of the British?
Also if killing fellow Muslims is wrong why are Saudis killing Yemeni Muslims and Salafis quiet on that?
I would rather suggest you not bring Salafism into this, this will lead to other debates.

1. I’m not salafi
2. If it’s sure they can remove a evil and ensure a righteous leader replaces it without leading to a greater evil or mass bloodshed.
The point is to avoid greater harm and greater evil. Civil war will do more harm then the tyrannical ruler would do.

Like I said again, no one wants Civil War, only people who want Civil War are those who are working in foreign interests and pushing people against the wall, and doing things that can lead to Civil unrest, They are the ones responsible and will be responsible in case of Civil unrest.

 

[Tamerlane]

1. I’m not salafi
2. If it’s sure they can remove a evil and ensure a righteous leader replaces it without leading to a greater evil or mass bloodshed.
The point is to avoid greater harm and greater evil. Civil war will do more harm then the tyrannical ruler would do.

I’m not sure if using Islam to justify accepting an illegal regime change in Pakistan is such a good idea.

It reminds me how Raymond Davis was set free by using Islamic law to pay off the families of those he had murdered. The Quran allows paying for accidental death, not deliberate murder by an enemy agent. It was making a joke out of sharia.

Similarly it sounds like a joke to say that Muslims should do nothing against an illegal ruler imposed by a foreign power that is hostile to Islam.

The Prophet (PBUH) overthrew the rulers of Mecca. If he followed the statements you quoted, he would have accepted them as rulers.

No wonder that most Muslim countries have criminals ruling them.

 

[Sayfullah]

- Again I’m not a salafi. I’m hanafi Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaah.
- What I said above u can agree or disagree.
- I’m pro pti and imran khan.
- I said this cuz some nut jobs were wanting civil war but guess some people can’t read because - I specifically wrote to address people who were wanting civil war.
- The imam’s I quoted were, founder of hanbali school of fiqh and, a potential mujadid of their century and well known and respected ahle sunnah scholar.
- I’ve never said to accept imported government neither would I truly accept them but I put the interests of my country and my religion and fellow Muslims first. It is not in the interests of anyone but the enemy that a civil war happens in Pakistan.
- My opinion is based on civil war will bring far more destruction, evil and harm to Pakistan them imported government brought.
- My opinion is Pakistan is not based on one person and it will be alive with or without imran khan.
- I’m a imran khan supporter but I do not believe in worshipping people (starting a civil war and destroying the nation for a person).

Your free to disagree with what I said but this is what I believe in.

The Prophet (PBUH) overthrew the rulers of Mecca. If he followed the statements you quoted, he would have accepted them as rulers.

Rulers of Mecca were mushriks not Muslims.

 

[Sayfullah]

I would rather suggest you not bring Salafism into this, this will lead to other debates.

I didn’t mention salafis not once in what I said.
I said look at examples of the salaf. The salaf are the first 3 generations of Muslims who were the best of Muslims and this is mentioned in authentic Hadith

 

[Thinker3]

- Again I’m not a salafi. I’m hanafi Ahle Sunnah Wal Jamaah.
- What I said above u can agree or disagree.
- I’m pro pti and imran khan.
- I said this cuz some nut jobs were wanting civil war but guess some people can’t read because - I specifically wrote to address people who were wanting civil war.
- The imam’s I quoted were, founder of hanbali school of fiqh and, a potential mujadid of their century and well known and respected ahle sunnah scholar.
- I’ve never said to accept imported government neither would I truly accept them but I put the interests of my country and my religion and fellow Muslims first. It is not in the interests of anyone but the enemy that a civil war happens in Pakistan.
- My opinion is based on civil war will bring far more destruction, evil and harm to Pakistan them imported government brought.
- My opinion is Pakistan is not based on one person and it will be alive with or without imran khan.
- I’m a imran khan supporter but I do not believe in worshipping people (starting a civil war and destroying the nation for a person).

Your free to disagree with what I said but this is what I believe in.

Let me tell you some history of what happens when we accept US slavery and regime changes.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1512730430801383426

This was the regime change and US slavery that caused the chain reactions and ultimately Pakistan broke into two parts with hundreds of thousands of deaths.
When Musharraf again sided with the US that led to more than 80,000 deaths and hundreds of thousands of injured, with more than 150 billion$ of economic loss. And that same Musharraf was removed by the US again and these two corrupt dynasties were brought upon us.
Now they have imposed all the criminals and anti-Islam people on Pakistan, if they are not removed then History tells that this will lead to destruction.

 

[Sayfullah]

I don't agree with what they said, this is not Quran and Authentic hadith, this is not what Islam teaches, Islam teaches to stand for what is right and strive in the way of Allah. And also according to your above-mentioned hadiths, it will be disobedience to Allah if we accept US slavery and US slaves as our rulers.

Btw those who I quoted were prominent ahle sunnah scholars who every Sunni holds in high regard.
Islam also teaches us to be patient.
Islam also teaches us not to spread fitna.

Question for you. Musharraf was a “US slave” and was our ruler. Is TTP’s jihad justified against Musharraf since he joined war on terror on usa’s behalf? When ttp announced their jihad originally against Pakistan, there was no aps or suicide bombings in Pakistani cities yet. It was purely a fight against Pakistani troops who were in tribal areas and then spun into a bigger war. Was ttp justified because they wanted to overthrow Musharraf and bring “shariah” to Pakistan. When they made this claim originally, at that time they hadn’t done these heinous crimes yet.
By your logic were they justified too?

When Musharraf again sided with the US in their war and accepted their slavery that led to more than 80,000 deaths and hundreds of thousands of injured, with more than 150 billion$ of economic loss. And that same Musharraf was removed by the US again and these two corrupt dynasties were brought upon us.

I’m not sure if using Islam to justify accepting an illegal regime change in Pakistan is such a good idea.

No one is tryna justify their actions

No wonder that most Muslim countries have criminals ruling them.

Muslims are in the state their in because for every thing we start wars against fellow Muslims. Imagine Muslim without rebellion against ottomans, rebellion against gaddafi, rebellion against saddam, civil war in Syria etc etc.

 

[Sayfullah]

Question for everyone here:

What do you think civil disobedience will lead to?
Civil disobedience imo will lead to imported government using brutal tactics against the people.
What will that lead to?
IMO people will fight back against these brutal tactics by imported government
What will that lead to?
IMO it will lead to harsher crackdown and starting of civil war.
What will that lead to?
IMO it will lead to widespread destruction and full blown civil war
What will that lead to?
IMO it will lead to our hungry neighbours cashing this situation and attacking us
What will that lead to?
IMO it will lead to balkanization/occupation of Pakistan
What will that lead to?
IMO it will lead to half of us getting occupied by Hindu rss regime run india and half of us become independent secular US colonies
What was the outcome of this?
Now we are truly slaves for life and ended up in a worse position then we started at

 

[Thinker3]

Btw those who I quoted were prominent ahle sunnah scholars who every Sunni holds in high regard.
Islam also teaches us to be patient.
Islam also teaches us not to spread fitna.

Question for you. Musharraf was a “US slave” and was our ruler. Is TTP’s jihad justified against Musharraf since he joined war on terror on usa’s behalf? When ttp announced their jihad originally against Pakistan, there was no aps or suicide bombings in Pakistani cities yet. It was purely a fight against Pakistani troops who were in tribal areas and then spun into a bigger war. Was ttp justified because they wanted to overthrow Musharraf and bring “shariah” to Pakistan. When they made this claim originally, at that time they hadn’t done these heinous crimes yet.
By your logic were they justified too?

TTP was formed in 2007, TTP was not a jihadi movement but a revenge movement, they just named it Jihad, it was not, one of the major reasons for the formation of TTP was that in 2007 US did Airstrikes on a madrassa in tribal areas which killed 82 children, then the US made Pakistan accept that Pakistan themselves have done the Airstrike, what do you think would have happened? then drone strikes by the US-led to more and more hatred toward the Pakistani state as they thought Pakistan is responsible for them, TTP was wrong they were mad in revenge and turned into worst than animals.

 

[Sayfullah]

TTP was formed in 2007, TTP was not a jihadi movement but a revenge movement, they just named it Jihad, it was not, one of the major reasons for the formation of TTP was that in 2007 US did Airstrikes on a madrassa in tribal areas which killed 82 children, then the US made Pakistan accept that Pakistan themselves have done the Airstrike, what do you think would have happened? then drone strikes by the US-led to more and more hatred toward the Pakistani state as they thought Pakistan is responsible for them, TTP was wrong they were mad in revenge and turned into worst than animals.

Ttp proper formed after lal masjid incident in which Musharraf raided it to get rid of extremists. Also the drone incident u mentioned, did Pakistan not allow usa to use its airspace for that strike? So a slave regime was in place then. According to ur logic ttp should be right in their war against Pakistan since a us slave regime was in power.

Also before ttp proper was formed, there was still Pakistani Taliban who fought pak army which entered tribal areas. Ever heard of the name Nek Muhammad? His whole argument was jihad against Pakistan because it “slave army” and “slave government” entered tribal areas on “behalf of usa”.
If you consider Musharraf a “puppet” and “slave” then you consider pak army entering tribal areas as something on “behalf of usa”. And since you consider it ok for rebellion against a “us slave “ government then isn’t Nek Muhammad and his Pakistani Taliban allies “jihad” justified against Pakistan?

 

[Thinker3]

Question for everyone here:

What do you think civil disobedience will lead to?
Civil disobedience imo will lead to imported government using brutal tactics against the people.
What will that lead to?
IMO people will fight back against these brutal tactics by imported government
What will that lead to?
IMO it will lead to harsher crackdown and starting of civil war.
What will that lead to?
IMO it will lead to widespread destruction and full blown civil war
What will that lead to?
IMO it will lead to our hungry neighbours cashing this situation and attacking us
What will that lead to?
IMO it will lead to balkanization/occupation of Pakistan
What will that lead to?
IMO it will lead to half of us getting occupied by Hindu rss regime run india and half of us become independent secular US colonies
What was the outcome of this?
Now we are truly slaves for life and ended up in a worse position then we started at

This is the worst-case scenario, this will not happen if those who brought the imported government come to their senses and immediately call for the election.
What you are suggesting is that we should accept slavery and not resist.

Ttp proper formed after lal masjid incident in which Musharraf raided it to get rid of extremists. Also the drone incident u mentioned, did Pakistan not allow usa to use its airspace for that strike? So a slave regime was in place then. According to ur logic ttp should be right in their war against Pakistan since a us slave regime was in power.

Also before ttp proper was formed, there was still Pakistani Taliban who fought pak army which entered tribal areas. Ever heard of the name Nek Muhammad? His whole argument was jihad against Pakistan because it “slave army” and “slave government” entered tribal areas on “behalf of usa”.
If you consider Musharraf a “puppet” and “slave” then you consider pak army entering tribal areas as something on “behalf of usa”. And since you consider it ok for rebellion against a “us slave “ government then isn’t Nek Muhammad and his Pakistani Taliban allies “jihad” justified against Pakistan?

Musharraf made mistakes that caused us huge damage, now should we make more mistakes or learn from them?

 

[Sayfullah]

Nek Muhammad post 9/11: Pakistan has “slave government”
Civil war wanters rn: Pakistan has “slave government”
Nek Muhammad: “Pakistan slave army fights for dollars”
Civil war wanters: “Pakistan slave army fights for dollars”
Nek Muhammad pre 2004: “We must overthrow slave government and establish shariah in Pakistan”
Civil war wanters rn: “We must overthrow slave government and establishment free government in Pakistan”

My question for those civil war wanters, what’s the difference between you and Nek Muhammad (Pakistani Taliban) when both of you claim(ed) to want to overthrow “US slave government” and “dollarkhor” army?

Civil war is as much halal for you as it was for original Pakistani Taliban which started fighting Pakistan in south waziristan way before 2007.

 

[Thinker3]

Nek Muhammad post 9/11: Pakistan has “slave government”
Civil war wanters rn: Pakistan has “slave government”
Nek Muhammad: “Pakistan slave army fights for dollars”
Civil war wanters: “Pakistan slave army fights for dollars”
Nek Muhammad pre 2004: “We must overthrow slave government and establish shariah in Pakistan”
Civil war wanters rn: “We must overthrow slave government and establishment free government in Pakistan”

My question for those civil war wanters, what’s the difference between you and Nek Muhammad (Pakistani Taliban) when bought of you claim(ed) to want to overthrow “US slave government” and “dollarkhor” army?

Civil war is as much halal for you as it was for original Pakistani Taliban which started fighting Pakistan in south waziristan way before 2007.

You just want people to accept slavery and not resist.
This is not a jihad against the state or a rebellion, this is to protect the state and free it, this is standing up for what is right. No one wants a Civil war, only people who want a Civil War are those working for the US. The state has been compromised, it is the responsibility of Pakistanis to free Pakistan from slavery.

 

[Sayfullah]

You just want people to accept slavery and not resist.
This is not a jihad against the state or a rebellion, this is to protect the state and free it, this is standing up for what is right. No one wants a Civil war, only people who want a Civil War are those working for the US. The state has been compromised, it is the responsibility of Pakistanis to free Pakistan from slavery.

Never once did I say to accept slavery. But all I’m saying is don’t destroy your country and create a greater evil and cause greater harm.

I stand against slavery and for what is right but I don’t stand for something I know will benefit my enemies more then my country.

What will civil disobedience lead to? Will showbaz sharif step down if we start civil disobedience? IMO it will lead to a crackdown on people. What will the crackdown lead to? People being radicalized. What will that lead to? It’s pretty obvious since Syria is already an example of it.

Usa wants civil war and usa is master at creating civil war. They aren’t retards to poorly plan their regime change. Usa wants Pakistan to have a civil war and is playing its cards accordingly.

Yes we should free Pakistan from slavery but not at the costs of millions of innocents and sending your whole country to ruins.