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Is literacy level a basic measure of morality, humanity, honesty & character of a nation?

Manticore

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Compare india/pak to the west

Question for the desis living in the west


I am talking about basic human qualities not generally needing the danda of the strict law implementation

Please keep religion out of it - no one can read let alone understand / implement the Quran if he is illiterate
 
Compare india/pak to the west

question for the desis living in the west
no, I dont think so. Its possible to have less literate people but higher honesty and morality.
Literacy makes it easy to capture and understand information that has nothing to do with honesty or morality which is how a group of people decide the rules of game. That rule could be different from culture to culture, some are basic rules for survival of any society (for example stealing and lying helps individual but hurts society as whole hence its discouraged).
 
I haven't lived in those times to know, but by anecdotal eveidence, people in Pakistan ~100 years ago had fewer school years on their résumés but a lot more going for them in the ethics department.


...
please keep religion out of it - no one can read let alone understand the Quran if he is illiterate
The qur-aan is the qur-aan not kitaab! It's oral.
 
So if illiteracy is not the cause, whats the cause of this moral decay?

You take the rape/stoning incidents to the drivers stealing petrol from the cars etc
 
Compare india/pak to the west

Question for the desis living in the west


I am talking about basic human qualities not generally needing the danda of the strict law implementation

Please keep religion out of it - no one can read let alone understand / implement the Quran if he is illiterate
i have lot to say on this topic....have lots things in mind...but later some other time....briefly no Literacy aint the cause of morality,humanity etc...
 
Compare india/pak to the west

Question for the desis living in the west


I am talking about basic human qualities not generally needing the danda of the strict law implementation

Please keep religion out of it - no one can read let alone understand / implement the Quran if he is illiterate
Yes.
I think education is a measure of all that you mentioned. But this statement is conditional.

Let me explain:

1.Traditional societies without education and more rural are more ethical/moral/social law abiding than transitional societies. In traditional societies, the concept/institution of honour and shame forces people to behave in a socially acceptable manner by and large.

2. Transitional societies - where the population is split between educated and non educated, urban and rural.
These societies have highest problems of morality, legality among other things.

This is because in such societies, the educated find ways and loopholes to exploit the non educated. Those with malafide intentions(rich or poor, educated or uneducated) are able to carry out their agendas because there is no instrument of control over them.
The old institutions of honour, face & shame are diluted and even removed as people in urban centers don't have their relatives or are relatively more anonymous than in traditional societies like villages. Thus old restrictions/instruments of control are no longer binding on the people as they used to be.

And the new Institutions of the State which though present and meant to effectively replace the old social institutions of honour/shame and are meant to deter those who have malafide intentions, are not effective. This is because the institutions of such States are also not fully developed and are thus used for exploitation as well.

Thus morality/rule of law/etc is lowest in such societies compared to traditional societies and developed/completely educated societies.

3. Developed/Completely educated societies - Majority of the people here are educated, know their rights, also know what to demand of state institutions and force them to act, thus making state institutions become competent and capable and deter those who have malafide intentions.

------------------------------------------
Now countries like India and Pakistan are in phase 2 ie Transitional societies.

So Society type 1 - ie the Traditional Society looks better because it had better behaviour, better morality and better ethics.

However, the same would be achieved once countries like India and Pakistan get their population really educated and move towards Society type 3 - the Developed/Educated Society.

I can give so many many example of how institutions in India are slowly and one by one(yes, its that slow) becoming better because of fierce, massive public pressure and scrutiny on them. Ofcourse few get worse with time as well but they are much lesser in number.

But as more and more people in India are getting educated, society is evolving, people are literally forcing State Institutions to become better and provide better service. This is a fight as those at the top of the society want the institutions to keep being malafide, and so changing each institution is a whole new fight each time. But is it is happening right here.

And once a critical number of important Institutions in India become better, they will exert a powerful force that will make the rest of the institutions change faster.
Ask me and I will give you examples of the Institutions that have become better and worse in India to illustrate my point. And I can give you diverse examples from bad social behaviour like rape to judicial Institutions to electoral Institutions.

And this is exactly how the Western societies also developed. They underwent the same transitions. Their people also fought hard to change their institutions one by one till an eco-system of good institutions developed.

And the thing about this is, humans generally behave better/more humane when they feel that there is justice in the system. If you make the system better, the humans will also start becoming better which will make the institutions even better. Its a virtuous circle.

Similarly, there is also a vicious cycle. The people will become more brutal, barbaric, less ethical if the system starts failing them, then the system starts failing more because the people are becoming worse. No one can say what comes first, its a cumulative effect.

All this happens as more and more people get educated.
 
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Yes.
I think education is a measure of all that you mentioned. But this statement is conditional.

Let me explain:

1.Traditional societies without education are more ethical/moral/social law abiding than transitional societies. In traditional societies, the concept/institution of shame forces people to behave in a socially acceptable manner by and large.

2. Transitional societies - where the population is split between educated and non educated, urban and rural.
These societies have highest issues of morality, legality among other things.

This is because in such societies, the educated find ways and loopholes to exploit the non educated.
The old institutions of face & shame are removed as people in urban centers don't have their relatives or are more anonymous than in traditional societies like villages. Thus old restrictions are no longer binding.

Also in such cases, the institutions of the State which though present and are meant to deter those who have malafide intentions, but are not effective because the institutions of such states are also not fully developed and are thus used for exploitation as well.

Thus morality/rule of law/etc is lowest in such societies compared to traditional societies and developed/completely educated societies.

3. Developed/Completely educated societies - Majority of the people here are educated, know their rights, also know what to demand of state institutions and force them to act, thus making state institutions become competent and capable and deter those who have malafide intentions.

------------------------------------------
Now countries like India and Pakistan are in phase 2. Transitional societies. So Society type 1 - ie the Traditional Society looks better because it had better behaviour, better morality and ethnics.

However, the same would be achieved once countries like India and Pakistan get their population really educated and move towards Society type 3 - the Developed/Educated Society.

I can give so many many example of how institutions in India are slowly and one by one(yes, its that slow) becoming better because of fierce, massive public pressure and scrutiny on them. Ofcourse few get worse with time as well but they are lesser in number.

But as the society in India is evolving, people are literally forcing State Institutions to become better and provide better service. This is a fight as those at the top of the society want the institutions to keep being malafide, and so changing each institution is a whole new fight. But is it is happening here.

And once a critical number of important Institutions in India become better, they will exert a powerful force that will make the rest of the institutions change faster.

Ask me and I will give you examples of the Institutions that have become better in India to illustrate my point.

And this is exactly how the Western societies also developed. They underwent the same transitions. Their people also fought hard to change their institutions one by one till an eco-system of good institutions developed.

And the thing about this is, humans generally behave better/more humane when they feel that there is justice in the system. If you make the system better, the humans will also start becoming better which will make the institutions even better. Its a virtuous circle.
Why dont you post such balanced / good posts in other parts of the forum? You have no idea how many reports we get of your posts :agree:

Quite a thought provoking post - maybe there is hope for the desis
I wouldve rated it if it wasnt in members club
 
Why dont you post such balanced / good posts in other parts of the forum? You have no idea how many reports we get of your posts :agree:

Quite a thought provoking post - maybe there is hope for the desis
I wouldve rated it if it wasnt in members club
I am hot tempered at times. I apologize for that
I have edited my post as well. Do read it once again.

Why dont you post such balanced / good posts in other parts of the forum? You have no idea how many reports we get of your posts :agree:

Quite a thought provoking post - maybe there is hope for the desis
I wouldve rated it if it wasnt in members club
Not asking for a positive rating, but We can move this discussion to the Seniors cafe. I think it would be more participative there with opinion of people like @Joe Shearer , @niaz @Marshmallow @Chinese-Dragon @Chak Bamu @VCheng among others.
 
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@Contrarian I think your idea of blaming educated for finding loopholes in system make little sense to me. I dont see educated necessarily doing immoral or inhuman acts in India hiding behind relative anonymity.
There is a clash in sense of morality of two societies for sure.

@Manticore
First of all we need to figure out what is moral and ethical thing to do. Whatever we decide to be moral and ethical, there is a high chance that traditional society of yesteryears will be less likely to conform to that norm.

As for petty crimes like stealing, you will be surprized the level in UK. The moment people know they can get away with it, they do it. That inturn becomes socially acceptable slowly and people dont really judge you harshly for being caught.

Vast majority of us now a days confine morality to as little area as possible because its mostly derived to benefit society and not individual and we are more individualistic than ever before.
 
Yes.
I think education is a measure of all that you mentioned. But this statement is conditional.

Let me explain:

1.Traditional societies without education and more rural are more ethical/moral/social law abiding than transitional societies. In traditional societies, the concept/institution of honour and shame forces people to behave in a socially acceptable manner by and large.

2. Transitional societies - where the population is split between educated and non educated, urban and rural.
These societies have highest problems of morality, legality among other things.

This is because in such societies, the educated find ways and loopholes to exploit the non educated.
The old institutions of honour, face & shame are diluted and even removed as people in urban centers don't have their relatives or are relatively more anonymous than in traditional societies like villages. Thus old restrictions are no longer binding on the people as they used to be.

Also in such cases, the Institutions of the State which though present and meant to effectively replace the old social institutions of honour and shame and are meant to deter those who have malafide intentions, are not effective. This is because the institutions of such States are also not fully developed and are thus used for exploitation as well.

Thus morality/rule of law/etc is lowest in such societies compared to traditional societies and developed/completely educated societies.

3. Developed/Completely educated societies - Majority of the people here are educated, know their rights, also know what to demand of state institutions and force them to act, thus making state institutions become competent and capable and deter those who have malafide intentions.

------------------------------------------
Now countries like India and Pakistan are in phase 2 ie Transitional societies.

So Society type 1 - ie the Traditional Society looks better because it had better behaviour, better morality and better ethics.

However, the same would be achieved once countries like India and Pakistan get their population really educated and move towards Society type 3 - the Developed/Educated Society.

I can give so many many example of how institutions in India are slowly and one by one(yes, its that slow) becoming better because of fierce, massive public pressure and scrutiny on them. Ofcourse few get worse with time as well but they are much lesser in number.

But as more and more people in India are getting educated, society is evolving, people are literally forcing State Institutions to become better and provide better service. This is a fight as those at the top of the society want the institutions to keep being malafide, and so changing each institution is a whole new fight each time. But is it is happening right here.

And once a critical number of important Institutions in India become better, they will exert a powerful force that will make the rest of the institutions change faster.
Ask me and I will give you examples of the Institutions that have become better and worse in India to illustrate my point. And I can give you diverse examples from bad social behaviour like rape to judicial Institutions to electoral Institutions.

And this is exactly how the Western societies also developed. They underwent the same transitions. Their people also fought hard to change their institutions one by one till an eco-system of good institutions developed.

And the thing about this is, humans generally behave better/more humane when they feel that there is justice in the system. If you make the system better, the humans will also start becoming better which will make the institutions even better. Its a virtuous circle.

Similarly, there is also a vicious cycle. The people will become more brutal, barbaric, less ethical if the system starts failing them, then the system starts failing more because the people are becoming worse. No one can say what comes first, its a cumulative effect.

All this happens as more and more people get educated.

I found this explanation very appealing. It is chewy; it needs reading and re-reading, but maybe there might be some response to it possible after several such readings. For now, it sums up things reasonably nicely.

Why dont you post such balanced / good posts in other parts of the forum? You have no idea how many reports we get of your posts :agree:

Quite a thought provoking post - maybe there is hope for the desis
I wouldve rated it if it wasnt in members club

Actually, @Contrarian, why don't you post like this all the time? Isn't it boring to put up the usual jingoistic clap-trap? This one is classy.
 
Education is absolutely not a measure of how civilized and how morally upright a person is.

I have seen people with outstanding GPA's, PhD's, straights A's etc who are nothing but abusive and corrupt to the core.

Moral upbringing is done by the parents and in some circumstances the school.

The education system (can't say for India) is totally ignorant to the moral and cultural upbringing of a child. All a child has to do is to rote learn the things in a textbook and get good marks. The general society around him thinks that he is a very good and well behaved child and his very hard working.

While it may be true for some...it is a wrong notion most of the times.

The following article is somewhat related to the topic at hand.

36 A’s or a 4.0 GPA won’t make you a genius – The Express Tribune Blog
 
Maybe the socioeconomic status is also an important factor. Ive noticed that the upper middle class still practices some ethics. The lower socioeconomic class is full of hypocrites and upper class mostly consists of spoilt dishonest people with identity crisis

No offence intended
 
@Contrarian I think your idea of blaming educated for finding loopholes in system make little sense to me. I dont see educated necessarily doing immoral or inhuman acts in India hiding behind relative anonymity.
There is a clash in sense of morality of two societies for sure.
I have edited the post again. I was not able to put my thoughts to words clearly, maybe its better now. Go through it again if you can.
 
Compare india/pak to the west

Question for the desis living in the west


I am talking about basic human qualities not generally needing the danda of the strict law implementation

Please keep religion out of it - no one can read let alone understand / implement the Quran if he is illiterate

Are you referring to literacy or education? These are two different things when you ask this question, I think you meant education and not literacy:

"Is literacy level a basic measure of morality, humanity, honesty & character of a nation?"
 
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