Is india really a secular,liberal above all a democrtic state?

[Vasily Zaytsev]

Are u kidding me?


India is communal, conservative and highly autocratic country !!!


Ask Afzal Guru !!! ...........ohhhhhhhhhhh .......too bad ... he was hanged !!!

Ask Kasab !!! ............. nope .... he was hanged too !!!

Whom should we ask then? .........hmmmmm ... lets wait for the next hanging ... who knows by that time India might have turned Secular, Liberal and Democratic !!!

Till then ........... hail Mao !!!

@WebMaster Can I open thread on Religious minority oppression and War Crimes of Pakistan Army published by Amnesty International.

Seems like you have allowed so many threads on Indian Social issues posted by Pakistanis and also on Afzal Guru.

Isn't it against the rule. Coz last time I checked you told that death of people shouldn't be celebrated as its against forum rule.

Just asking.

How dare ... you communal , conservative, autocratic evil indoo (indoo: spelled India in chinese, nothing offensive).

Hail Mao !!!

 

[jaibi]

Most people including me and the government in India want to see Pakistan in a better position than it is today. Not for the love or anything but a stable neighbor would be better for us. If Pakistan has realized no Terrorist is good for the country may it be taliban or LeT then well and good. Because the number of people killed by those terrorist nurtured by whoever in pakistan is more than what terrorists have killed in the whole world put together.

I agree with you, sir. I would also like to point out that Pakistanis have bled the most due to the terrorists. However, as to your point that India wishes to see a stable Pakistan. I agree, many Indians do; however, unfortunately our classical modernist perspectives dictate that we see the nation-state as a singular and stable entity and it is certainly not so. There are Indians who continue to see Pakistan as the enemy and they continue to harbour a threat to Pakistan. Now, some sane Pakistanis know that this perception is based on facts and can be dealt with rationally but there is a segment in Pakistan (just like in India) that pays heed to these aspirations and unfortunately many of these are in the government and the armed forces and as long as there is a certain level of push on the India-Pakistan rivialry these factions would continue to flourish and influence Pakistani policies.

Being a Pakistani and someone who likes to keep up with the opinions of the people I would like to tell you that unanimously Pakistanis are against all terrorists. BUT, and this is a big but, many people hold the view that a) Terrorists are actually anti-India and anti-US, b) Terrorists actually are strategic assests. The latter point, part b, has been completely challenged and outside of the mainstream political thought: Terrorists are a threat, that's gone to heart. However, the first part, part a, stems from a feeling in Pakistan, which is grounded in history, that Pakistan is actually alone in a hostile world. This perception forces many sane planners to prepare for a worst case scenario (Pakistan vs. the world of sorts). This perception needs to be challenged and it can only be done when the US and her allies stop making the liberals in Pakistan look like fools for supporting them!

All in all, sir, as an insider, I would like to tell you that the future seems bright. I recently met the graduating cadets fresh from PMA, each of them had the spirit to combat the militants. I heard them talk of a new arising spirit that has been embedded in my generation: Pakistan is in trouble and only we, the young Pakistanis, can save it. I'm hopeful that the results of this solidified shift would come to surface soon. My own motivation to not go abroad and study further but join the armed forces stems from the same spirit. Terrorists are not Pakistanis to Pakistanis.

 

[Rocky25]

Well in a democratic and secular state his family must have been informed and allowed to meet him for a last time plus there are other protocols which are required to be followed by international standards none of which was followed just because he was a muslim he was killed like a dog without enough proofs as you needed somebody to make a scapegoat.Its not me or pakistani who are saying so its an international body..As I am sure you dint read it all here is it for you democratic and incredible indians.

Serious questions have been raised about the fairness of Afzal Guru’s trial. He did not receive legal representation of his choice or a lawyer with adequate experience at the trial stage. These concerns were not addressed,” said Shashikumar.

“Before Ajmal Kasab’s execution in November, Indian authorities used to make information about the rejection of mercy petitions and dates of execution available to the public prior to any executions. The new practice of carrying out executions in secret is highly disturbing.

We as a citizen of republic of India are OK if we do NOT treat terrorists as human beings! If we execute the terrorists without giving any dates to public....

At some other place, a plane can be hijacked and these terrorist will be freed for Passengers!

 

[Rocky25]

I agree with you, sir. I would also like to point out that Pakistanis have bled the most due to the terrorists. However, as to your point that India wishes to see a stable Pakistan. I agree, many Indians do; however, unfortunately our classical modernist perspectives dictate that we see the nation-state as a singular and stable entity and it is certainly not so. There are Indians who continue to see Pakistan as the enemy and they continue to harbour a threat to Pakistan. Now, some sane Pakistanis know that this perception is based on facts and can be dealt with rationally but there is a segment in Pakistan (just like in India) that pays heed to these aspirations and unfortunately many of these are in the government and the armed forces and as long as there is a certain level of push on the India-Pakistan rivialry these factions would continue to flourish and influence Pakistani policies.

Being a Pakistani and someone who likes to keep up with the opinions of the people I would like to tell you that unanimously Pakistanis are against all terrorists. BUT, and this is a big but, many people hold the view that a) Terrorists are actually anti-India and anti-US, b) Terrorists actually are strategic assests. The latter point, part b, has been completely challenged and outside of the mainstream political thought: Terrorists are a threat, that's gone to heart. However, the first part, part a, stems from a feeling in Pakistan, which is grounded in history, that Pakistan is actually alone in a hostile world. This perception forces many sane planners to prepare for a worst case scenario (Pakistan vs. the world of sorts). This perception needs to be challenged and it can only be done when the US and her allies stop making the liberals in Pakistan look like fools for supporting them!

All in all, sir, as an insider, I would like to tell you that the future seems bright. I recently met the graduating cadets fresh from PMA, each of them had the spirit to combat the militants. I heard them talk of a new arising spirit that has been embedded in my generation: Pakistan is in trouble and only we, the young Pakistanis, can save it. I'm hopeful that the results of this solidified shift would come to surface soon. My own motivation to not go abroad and study further but join the armed forces stems from the same spirit. Terrorists are not Pakistanis to Pakistanis.

Agree to an extend.... The day when Pakistan stops distinction between good terrorist and bad terrorists.. then is the day prosperity will come back to Pakistan!

With the terrorist the Americans chased away the Soviet from Afghanistan! The same cannot hold good in Kashmir... Let us learn to live with status quo!

 

[jaibi]

Agree to an extend.... The day when Pakistan stops distinction between good terrorist and bad terrorists.. then is the day prosperity will come back to Pakistan!

With the terrorist the Americans chased away the Soviet from Afghanistan! The same cannot hold good in Kashmir... Let us learn to live with status quo!

There are no good terrorists nor bad terrorists to us, sir. I believe we don't have to live with the status quo but international competition between rivals is no more a game of armies. We can change the status quo to a more aggreable situation with negotiations, agreements and alliances.

 

[jaibi]

@WebMaster Can I open thread on Religious minority oppression and War Crimes of Pakistan Army published by Amnesty International.

Seems like you have allowed so many threads on Indian Social issues posted by Pakistanis and also on Afzal Guru.

Isn't it against the rule. Coz last time I checked you told that death of people shouldn't be celebrated as its against forum rule.

Just asking.

If it is so, we should allow a thread, in my opinion. Let's see what it has to say and if it can withstand scrutiny then let's learn from it like India learnt from Operation Blue Star.

 

[nForce]

[size=+2]Today’s execution of Mohammad Afzal Guru indicates a disturbing and regressive trend towards executions shrouded in secrecy and the resumption of death penalty use in India, said Amnesty International.
“We condemn the execution in the strongest possible terms. This very regrettably puts India in opposition to the global trend towards moving away from the death penalty”, said Velath, Programmes Director at Amnesty International India.[/size]


Indian authorities hanged Mohammad Afzal Guru at 0800 hrs in Tihar Jail, New Delhi on 9 February 2013. His execution is the second in India in three months after an eight-year hiatus.

Mohammed Afzal Guru was sentenced to death in December 2002 after being convicted of conspiracy to attack the Parliament of India, waging war against India and murder in December 2001. He was tried by a special court designated under the Prevention of Terrorism Act (POTA), a law which fell considerably short of international fair trial standards and has since been repealed, in 2004, after serious allegations of its widespread abuse.

Seven members of the security forces including a woman constable were killed in the December 2001 attack on India’s Parliament complex in central Delhi, as were the five persons who had carried out the attack.

Afzal Guru’s death sentence was confirmed by the Supreme Court in August 2005, and his mercy petition was reportedly rejected by the President on 3 February 2013. Of the other three persons initially arrested for the attack, Afsan Guru was released without charges. The trial court also imposed death sentences on Delhi-based professor S A R Geelani and Shaukath Hussain Guru, but the Supreme Court acquitted Geelani of all charges and commuted Shaukath Hussain Guru’s sentence to 10 years’ imprisonment. He was released from Tihar jail in December 2010.

“Serious questions have been raised about the fairness of Afzal Guru’s trial. He did not receive legal representation of his choice or a lawyer with adequate experience at the trial stage. These concerns were not addressed,” said Shashikumar.

“Before Ajmal Kasab’s execution in November, Indian authorities used to make information about the rejection of mercy petitions and dates of execution available to the public prior to any executions. The new practice of carrying out executions in secret is highly disturbing.”

It is not clear whether Afzal Guru was given the opportunity to seek a judicial review of the decision to reject his mercy petition – a practice that has been followed in other cases.

[size=+1]According to initial reports from Kashmir, Afzal Guru’s family in Kashmir say they were not informed of his imminent execution, in violation of international standards on the use of the death penalty. The body was also not returned to the family for last rites and burial, in violation of international standards.[/size]

Amnesty International | India: New execution points to worrying and regressive trend

If we analyze this report section by section,we can come up with the following observations:

1.Amnesty International is questioning the very use of Capital Punishment here.
2.The organization is not clear whether Afzal Guru was given proper legal means or not.

My take on these two points.

Firstly,since the OP is quoting this report,hence we all can very well assume that OP agrees with it in its totality.Now,Pakistan is also among those countries where Capital punishment is well within the legal framework.So,shouldnt the OP question his own country and thereby himself first,before pointing fingers at others ??If not,then it is hypocrisy in the most blunt form.
Secondly,while anybody is well within rights to be suspicious of court proceedings,it will be crossing the line to question the validity of the verdict of the Indian Supreme court.Point to be noted,Amnesty International does not do that.It goes up to the point of raising suspicion and not beyond.Thankfully,we live in a World where suspicion is not considered to be equivalent to conviction.If it had been otherwise,then may be a lot more legs would have dangled in the air by now.
So,thank you for your concern,but we have got our man.

To Amnesty International-Had the World been a Utopian state,we would not have felt the necessity to hang a criminal.But the fact is,it is not.While you people can freely give long lectures to us about righteousness from the safety of your home thousands of miles away from the terrorists,its us who face them,and we should deliver a strong message that killing of innocent people will NOT be tolerated.Why dont you people try helping the family of the deceased for once instead of taking side of the terrorists ??

To the OP-Save your crocodile's tears.You may need it for your own people.You should not be pointing fingers at others for an action that you do and support yourself.

 

[Albatross]

Three more dead in Indian Kashmir by troops firing on unarmed peacefully protesting civilians another slap on indian democracy and secularism.Is this how india treats other parts in its federation or is it just because this is only 97% muslim area .

(Reuters) - Indian troops fired at anti-India protesters, killing at least three people in troubled Kashmir, police said, as tensions rose in a region at the core of Delhi's dispute with nuclear-armed neighbour Pakistan.

The latest round of demonstrations was sparked by the deaths of at least 11 people blamed on government forces over the past two weeks and was among the biggest anti-India protests in two years.

Most of those killed were protesters, who died of bullet wounds, and one was beaten to death, hospital sources said.

Authorities imposed a curfew in parts of Kashmir and deployed thousands of troops on Tuesday to quell fresh protests that are spreading to other parts of the Muslim-majority valley.

Police and paramilitary soldiers in riot gear patrolled deserted streets in Srinagar, the capital of the mainly Muslim Kashmir, and warned residents to stay indoors, witnesses said.

"Three youths were killed and two others critically injured in Anantnag town when security men fired on protesters who pelted stones at them," Imtiyaz Ahmad, a police official said.

Three killed as anti-India protests spread in Kashmir | Reuters

 

[Killswitch]

Its about time they hung this scumbag.

 

[Rocky25]

There are no good terrorists nor bad terrorists to us, sir. I believe we don't have to live with the status quo but international competition between rivals is no more a game of armies. We can change the status quo to a more aggreable situation with negotiations, agreements and alliances.

Good, Bad... I heard from the Pakistani news!

Negotiations.... Trust me it is a waste of time!
Agreements... I hope will wane over time!
Alliances.... You have to fight your own battle, China will Never eat up nukes for Pakistan! Their priorities are very different!

 

[jaibi]

Good, Bad... I heard from the Pakistani news!

Negotiations.... Trust me it is a waste of time!
Agreements... I hope will wane over time!
Alliances.... You have to fight your own battle, China will Never eat up nukes for Pakistan! Their priorities are very different!

My post was of a very general nature. Negotiations were for Pak-India relations, agreements too for our conflicts (Pakistan-India). Alliances for economic growth (Pakistan, India, China, Bangladesh, Srilanka etc.,).

Regarding battles, I've posted on PDF and elsewhere that this war is ours. No nation shall suffer for us and neither interfer in our wars (especially the Militant conflict).

Hope if clears up.