Is China Communist? Pop Quiz of Modern China 101

[chauism]

See the correlation on the things I have highlighted.

Thanks.

You are wrong again here, there is no correlation here. Tell me how capitalism can be a derivative of Marxism-Leninism when they are total opposite of each other.

 

[kungpaochicken]

China is a classical fascist state at present. It practices a politico-economic system most similar to that practiced by Germany under the Third Reich, national socialism. It does not have enough private ownership or democratic freedoms to be considered capitalist (like the US or Japan) or democratic socialist, comparable to current European norms.

Like Pres. Bush, Americans never bother to figure out the true meaning of "fascist" before they use that to attack their imaginary enemy.

Before we make a conclusion on whether or not China is a capitalized country, try to answer following questions first:

Is capitalism equals to democracy? of course not, even US is not a democratic system (it is a republic). The most obvious example is their way to elect the president -- electro vote, it is too "indirect" and too complicated and deliberately designed to be maneuverable at certain levels,

Is capitalism equals to freedom? Of course not, when US middle class is ripped off by big oil company and wall street speculator, where is the free voice to the overhaul the unfair system?

What is the origin of fascism? It is first practiced in Italy, a political movement launched by Mussolini. it is rooted from nationalism and "It rejected ideas of "perpetual peace" as fantasy and accepted man as a species constantly at war and those who met it achieved the stamp of nobility." --- seems exact what's happening in US, which is the only country in the world that promote "democracy" by war and still believe it has a noble motive

 

[chauism]

Like Pres. Bush, Americans never bother to figure out the true meaning of "fascist" before they use that to attack their imaginary enemy.

Before we make a conclusion on whether or not China is a capitalized country, try to answer following questions first:

Is capitalism equals to democracy? of course not, even US is not a democratic system (it is a republic). The most obvious example is their way to elect the president -- electro vote, it is too "indirect" and too complicated and deliberately designed to be maneuverable at certain levels,

Is capitalism equals to freedom? Of course not, when US middle class is ripped off by big oil company and wall street speculator, where is the free voice to the overhaul the unfair system?

What is the origin of fascism? It is first practiced in Italy, a political movement launched by Mussolini. it is rooted from nationalism and "It rejected ideas of "perpetual peace" as fantasy and accepted man as a species constantly at war and those who met it achieved the stamp of nobility." --- seems exact what's happening in US, which is the only country in the world that promote "democracy" by war and still believe it has a noble motive

I am trying to find the true definition of fascism, but that is what I have got so far.

What constitutes a definition of fascism and fascist governments is a highly disputed subject that has proved complicated and contentious. Historians, political scientists, and other scholars have engaged in long and furious debates concerning the exact nature of fascism and its core tenets.

Most scholars agree that a "fascist regime" is foremost an authoritarian form of government, although not all authoritarian regimes are fascist. Authoritarianism is thus a defining characteristic, but most scholars will say that more distinguishing traits are needed to make an authoritarian regime fascist.

Similarly, fascism as an ideology is also hard to define. Originally, "fascism" referred to a political movement that existed in a single country (Italy) for less than 30 years and ruled the country from 1922 to 1943 under the leadership of Benito Mussolini. Clearly, if the definition is restricted to the original Italian Fascism, then "fascism" has little significance outside of Italian politics. Most scholars prefer to use the word "fascism" in a more general sense, to refer to an ideology (or group of ideologies) that was influential in many countries at many different times. For this purpose, they have sought to identify a "fascist minimum" - that is, the minimum conditions that a certain political group must meet in order to be considered fascist. Several scholars have inspected the apocalyptic, millennial and millenarian aspects of fascism.According to most scholars of fascism, there are both left and right influences on fascism as a social movement, and fascism, especially once in power, has historically attacked communism, conservatism and parliamentary liberalism, attracting support primarily from the "far right" or "extreme right."

Definitions of fascism

It is just amazing how China jumped from being communist to fascist in some people's view.
Pitting China against the Third Reich is something more than flattering to many people especially those fengqings in China.

 

[Screaming Skull]

I don't understand why intelligent and learned members indulge in making sweeping statements here. We can have a civil argument based on valid facts and reasoning without calling each other names or indulging in mudslinging.

The fact that the present form of government has worked wonders for China can't be denied. China has made tremendous progress not only in the economic sector but also in the social sector. China has addressed some key issues like poverty, health care, education and literacy far better than several other developing nations like India. Hence, whether you call it communism, democracy or any other name, the bottom line is that the present form of governance rocks for China at the moment.

Now having said that it is not necessarily the best form of governance for all the countries in the world. Even for China, we don't know if this is the best form of governance in the long run simply because they haven't tried or experienced any thing else. For all you know China might have grown at 30% annually if they had a democracy in place. So mere progress in several sectors does not indicate the true efficiency of a particular form of government.

Coming to the extension of Chinese form of govt to other countries in the world, I would like to draw an analogy with my country, India. Just imagine if India was to have a single party system and the likes of Shiv Sena were to be in power? So, what do you do if the ruling party works towards the destruction of society rather than progress? What choice do the people of the country have? Again I am not saying that democracy is the best, but at least in a democracy the people of the country have the right to punish or reward a party based on their performance. The people of the country are directly responsible for the state of being of a country at any given point of time and there in lies the true power of democracy.

 

[gambit]

Is capitalism equals to democracy?

But a democratic political system is much more accommodating to capitalism than other forms, hence capitalism is often, and rightly should be, associated with democracy.

of course not, even US is not a democratic system (it is a republic).

The US have a republican form of government whose representatives are chosen (elected) in a democratic manner. As long as there are competing political ideas that people are willing and ALLOWED to associate themselves with those ideas, the society is a democratic one.

The most obvious example is their way to elect the president -- electro vote, it is too "indirect" and too complicated and deliberately designed to be maneuverable at certain levels,

The electoral college path to the Presidency is no more indirect than how the Swiss Confederation elect its president...

http://www.ipri.pt/publicacoes/working_paper/pdf/MMR_Swiss_221007.pdf

The President of the Swiss executive is elected only for a one-year term, because the Swiss do not like over-personalisation of politics. As the Swiss, the EU came up with the idea of rotating presidencies, however exercised until now by member states which chair the Council. But here again the EU will follow the Swiss example, with the new treaty providing for an EU President to be elected for a short 2 ½ years term.

Given the rotating presidency, Swiss national politicians tend to be unknown and national politics perceived to be somewhat technocratic. The result has been little voter mobilisation for national elections with voter turn-out hovering under 50%. A similar perception of European politics has resulted in turn-out rates under 50% in elections to the European Parliament.

The Swiss Presidency is elected NOT by popular votes but by the Federal Council, who represents the cantons. A Swiss President is so unknown that he can take the rails to work and no one in the entire car will recognize him. At least with the US Electoral College, the electors are not politicians but from the people themselves and who can recognize the candidates before election end.

Paper: Republics and their Presidents - Switzerland

Art. 98
1. The Chairman of the Federal Council shall be the President of the Confederation; he and the Vice- President shall be chosen by the Federal Assembly from among the members of the Council for a term of one year.

So why is the Swiss often declared to be more 'democratic' than the US? More likely the criticism that the US is not 'democratic' stems more from personal anti-US bias and ignorance than from genuine study of the various ways democratic societies chose their top executives.

There is always room for improvements in the democratic process. As long as the country recognize the flaws in the current system and take steps to corrrect those flaws, be it for today or for the next generation, that country can rightly call itself to be a 'functional' democracy. With the one-party rule in China, the only way to make such a despotic system seemingly acceptable is to grossly inflate the flaws of functional democracies. Make a mountain out of the proverbial molehill.

Is capitalism equals to freedom? Of course not, when US middle class is ripped off by big oil company and wall street speculator, where is the free voice to the overhaul the unfair system?

Of course it is. This is nothing more than meaningless rhetorics. The most basic freedoms enumerated in the US Constitution have more to do with political freedoms than with economic ones, although they are highly integrated with each other. Name one non-capitalist and non-democratic country that exist for as long as the US and have been the most successful economically. Keep in mind that the Soviet Union ignobly and spectacularly collapsed and China radically changed one-half of the country's societal equation -- the turn to capitalism. I played tourist in East Berlin when it existed and the difference was like night and day. How a business treat its customers is a moral issue for those in that business, nothing with political freedoms, which can be taken by the state.

What is the origin of fascism? It is first practiced in Italy, a political movement launched by Mussolini. it is rooted from nationalism and "It rejected ideas of "perpetual peace" as fantasy and accepted man as a species constantly at war and those who met it achieved the stamp of nobility." --- seems exact what's happening in US, which is the only country in the world that promote "democracy" by war and still believe it has a noble motive

What a laugh...I guess you truly believe Soviet tanks were exporting democracy in Eastern Europe and that the Berlin Wall was truly to keep people out.

Bottom line is that it does not matter if China can be technically called a 'communist' country or not. Under the one-party rule and if that party continues to worship Lenin and Marx and the ruler always claim to represent the country, then China can rightly be called a 'communist' country.

 

[chauism]

Bottom line is that it does not matter if China can be technically called a 'communist' country or not. Under the one-party rule and if that party continues to worship Lenin and Marx and the ruler always claim to represent the country, then China can rightly be called a 'communist' country.

Yes, and no.
Yes, China is still under one party system, but that is not unique to communism.

No, the party does not worship Lenin and Marx despite what says on its party charter except very few people who does. That is the reality in China right now. Most people don't know the first thing about Marxism and Leninism in China except its name.

 

[spsk]

Looks like China wants to have communism implemented but practically its impossible to implement there !!! But the ruling party does not want to give up their control over their country so for the name sake communism will be in papers and China will be continue to be a non communist state in practical.

Looks like I was under false impression that China has socialized system . Any of our Chinese friends may please explain what social system or ideology is followed practically in China , I have read about democratic , republic , Nazism , Communism , Facism but this is new to me, Is that all together new concept ? Just a curiosity to know...

 

[chauism]

Looks like China wants to have communism implemented but practically its impossible to implement there !!! But the ruling party does not want to give up their control over their country so for the name sake communism will be in papers and China will be continue to be a non communist state in practical.

Yes, you got it right. CPC failed communism right after Mao's death, and took another route called "Socialism With Chinese Characteristics" for them to stay in power under Leadership of Deng Xiaoping and continued on after his death.

Looks like I was under false impression that China has socialized system . Any of our Chinese friends may please explain what social system or ideology is followed practically in China , I have read about democratic , republic , Nazism , Communism , Facism but this is new to me, Is that all together new concept ? Just a curiosity to know...

There is not much ideology to speak of now in China. In China the leaders take a very pragmatic stance on China's development. Right now the goal is to construct a systematic approach to national structure and development that combines dynamic economic growth, a free market energized by a vigorous “nonpublic” (i.e., private) sector, unrelenting political and media control, personal but not political freedoms, concern for the welfare of all citizens, cultural enlightenment, and a synergistic approach to diverse social issues (the Scientific Development Perspective) that lead, in Hu Jintao’s vision, to a Harmonious society. So whatever it works for this goal, they will use it no matter where it is derived from. If they fail to achieve it, it will mean the illegitimacy of their governance. In a traditional way of saying it, they will lose the mandate of heaven.

During the process, some people are being neglected and some are sacrificed for the greater good. However if you look at the history of other so call democratic developed countries during their years of development. You will find that is just kind of cost of doing business.

 

[mDumb]

Again I am not saying that democracy is the best, but at least in a democracy the people of the country have the right to punish or reward a party based on their performance.

You really need to be educated on what's going on inside China today. Private companies are thriving, state owned companies that don't produce or unprofitable are shut down.

Here is a brief statistics:
In late 1990s (during Asian financial crisis), 46 million Chinese lost their livelihoods from the shut down. In the past ten years, private companies have created some 50 million jobs. Private companies now account for 70% of China's GDP.

The people of the country are directly responsible for the state of being of a country at any given point of time and there in lies the true power of democracy.

What BS are you talking about??? Are you aware that CP leaders or big bosses there are executed or serving life imprisonment for misbehaving? Are you also aware that the Indian politicians or government are more corrupt than in China? So what's the punishments for these corrupt politicians in India? Any of them executed?

Bottom line is that it does not matter if China can be technically called a 'communist' country or not. Under the one-party rule and if that party continues to worship Lenin and Marx and the ruler always claim to represent the country, then China can rightly be called a 'communist' country.

Using your logic, the US shouldn't be proclaiming as a democratic country too where the civil rights of its citizens are being diminished and the President is not elected by the people.

China is a classical fascist state at present.

Wow, the pot calling the kettle black. You should ask the White House, Congress, and Pentagon where the view there is the US owns the world.

 

[kungpaochicken]

Here's my view on the capitalism and communism:
They are two competing systems used to exist during the cold war.
It's just shallow to say one is better than other.

And because of these 2 competing systems the world is well balanced and relatively stable. The collapse of former Soviet Union and east Europe in the late 80, however, broke the balance and made capitalism the only dominating system across the world. Consequently, privatization and capitalization rampage without any limitation, countries that previously ruled by communist embrace the "free market" economy without the necessary regulations and opposing forces which took decades for the western countries to work out. The result, of course, is chaos and disaster, the prosperity and freedom become a failed promise as these countries struggled to survive from plunged living condition and social disorder.
It's not surprise why ppl in eastern Europe now feel cheated and lost.

Ironically, ppls lived in old line capital countries like US also take the pinch. The overturn of former communist countries create a lot of cheap free labors desperately seeking work opportunities, and this is obvious in the interest of big corp. and "multi-national" companies. As said by Carl Max, the only motivation of capitalism is to pursue higher profit, when there is a cheap labor, the workers in US immediately got ruthlessly betrayed and dumped. Most of the manufacturing jobs are outsourced to 3rd world countries now, and the Union barely have any leverage to negotiate with capitalist. The average income of US family never budged an inch over the past decade. And now in this economy more workers are laid off and the whole country is dragged into a downward spiral that seems still endless

 

[kungpaochicken]

And for those who hailed the finish of notorious KGB, you have water-boarding CIA now, what a big step forward

 

[gambit]

And for those who hailed the finish of notorious KGB, you have water-boarding CIA now, what a big step forward

If you believe that waterboarding is 'torture', you would not make it past USAF Basic Training, which is considered to be a cakewalk. I made it through Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE) school. There were there several WOMEN in our class and they had only a taste of what to expect from those who genuinely do not respect the Geneva Conventions, like China for instance. If waterboarding is 'torture' to you, US servicewomen, from pilots to linguists in our class, are much tougher than you.

 

[kungpaochicken]

If you believe that waterboarding is 'torture', you would not make it past USAF Basic Training, which is considered to be a cakewalk. I made it through Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE) school. There were there several WOMEN in our class and they had only a taste of what to expect from those who genuinely do not respect the Geneva Conventions, like China for instance. If waterboarding is 'torture' to you, US servicewomen, from pilots to linguists in our class, are much tougher than you.

Depending on the way you see it sometime being in us military can be tougher than torture, I saw a guy on CNN got half of his brain blown out in Iraq before he was dumped into some cheap navy hospital and got kicked out again later, now he's facing a life that everyone go "ewwwww" pointing his head. To make thing worse, blood, killing, the terror of roadside bomb will haunt him for the rest of his life, and all of these just for the meaningless war which is totally based on a lie. Dude that was indeed tough

 

[spsk]

Yes you got to know about this waterboarding only because US media had the rights to expose this, But in China I am sure nobody knows whats going on.

 

[chauism]

Yes you got to know about this waterboarding only because US media had the rights to expose this, But in China I am sure nobody knows whats going on.

Come on guys, what is the big deal? Do you ever wonder why Jack Bauer is hailed as a hero?
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