Is Asean Losing Its Way?

[Aepsilons]

I am owner of a engineering firm in Japan; open several construction bases in Jakarta and one in Yogyakarta. So let say I interest in Indonesia ; and I met their President Jokowi I donate to him.

I not rich, just business guy

So in other words, you're wealthy.

 

[Viet]

Well written I think and I think Indonesia need to be active leader there. Japan should help support ASEAN more any way. @Nihonjin1051 what you think?

bro pls don´t spew nonsense with leader bullshit. I want to remember all of you here again: asean is a club of equals.

 

[Aepsilons]

bro pls don´t spew nonsense with leader bullshit. I want to remember all of you here again: asean is a club of equals.

He probably didn't mean any insult, @Viet , i think he was emphasizing the positive role that Indonesia can play in encouraging rapport between the members as well as play a role in bolstering ASEAN's coordination with outside players. I suppose its important to note that all the members in ASEAN bring to the table their unique strengths, unique weaknesses, and that together ASEAN members are able to cover each other's weaknesses and augment them with their individual strengths. @yoshi.oda has a more leaning towards Indonesia because he actually owns an engineering business that has sites in Indonesia. So i suppose he's talking and conjecting in that context.

 

[Viet]

Do you stay at Gandaria apartment during staying in Jakarta ? When I went there I notice almost all residents are Japanese

Indonesia is ASEAN leader, no doubt. By seeing the history we will know that the reason of why ASEAN is established because of Soeharto want it..........He pursuit Lee Kuan Yew and Malaysian PM to build ASEAN.

Indo is ASEAN leader, no doubt? it is a bad joke. very bad joke. you even can´t control your people burning the forests to the ground. soon you can only see jungles in a museum. not only very bad for your country, but for your neighbors.

by the way your currency rupiad lost 30% value against the dollar in the last 2 years. ave you corrected your inflated GDP number by 30% accordingly? and your currency continue to sink like a stone in water.

 

[Aepsilons]

Indo is ASEAN leader, no doubt? it is a bad joke. very bad joke. you even can´t control your people burning the forests to the ground. soon you can only see jungles in a museum. not only very bad for your country, but for your neighbors.

by the way your currency rupiad lost 30% value against the dollar in the last 2 years. ave you corrected your inflated GDP number by 30% accordingly? and your currency continue to sink like a stone in water.

I think we have to consider the fluctuations as a normal in economics, bro. In the 1997 Asian Financial Crisis, various countries in Southeast Asia were affected , but over time, were able to regain their losses. Indonesia is part of that paradigm and we should be positive and optimistic of that growth paradigm.

Lastly, let's evade hostile and unproductive words, my Vietnamese friend. It is not cultivative for positive rapport.

 

[Viet]

He probably didn't mean any insult, @Viet , i think he was emphasizing the positive role that Indonesia can play in encouraging rapport between the members as well as play a role in bolstering ASEAN's coordination with outside players. I suppose its important to note that all the members in ASEAN bring to the table their unique strengths, unique weaknesses, and that together ASEAN members are able to cover each other's weaknesses and augment them with their individual strengths. @yoshi.oda has a more leaning towards Indonesia because he actually owns an engineering business that has sites in Indonesia. So i suppose he's talking and conjecting in that context.

everybody plays a role in the Asean club. I just hate the arrogance if someone comes and says "I´m the boss!". yoshi supports such idea. there is no boss in Asean. if someone has any doubt, pls read the treaty.

I think we have to consider the fluctuations as a normal in economics, bro. In the 1997 Asian Financial Crisis, various countries in Southeast Asia were affected , but over time, were able to regain their losses. Indonesia is part of that paradigm and we should be positive and optimistic of that growth paradigm.

Lastly, let's evade hostile and unproductive words, my Vietnamese friend. It is not cultivative for positive rapport.

ok that is fine.

 

[Indos]

Here comes again........

@Nihonjin1051

Just let him say what he wants to say..........

 

[Aepsilons]

everybody plays a role in the Asean club. I just hate the arrogance if someone comes and says "I´m the boss!". yoshi supports such idea. there is no boss in Asean. if someone has any doubt, pls read the treaty.

I suppose i would liken it to a cake symbolism.

If i cut a piece of chocolate cheese cake , and i eat it, i'll love it. If you cut a piece of cherry cheese cake and it it, you'll probably like it too. So when we compare our cakes, i'll say, "i really like chocolate cheese cake, Viet my friend." And you'll say to me, "Oh that's nice, but I particularly enjoyed my cherry cheese cake, Nihonjin buddy ol pal!"

So you see preference is based on and influenced upon by exposure. Yes? The Japanese businesses and business folks who invest soley in Vietnam will have positive bias for Vietnam and Vietnamese people, for sure. The Japanese businesses and business folk (like yoshi-sama) who invest in an operate in Indonesia will naturally have preference for Indonesia and Indonesian people. So don't take it as insulting that Yoshi has positive appraisal for Indonesia; its just that he has been exposed to Indonesia and the high capabilities of Indonesia. He also happened to mention that his relative stayed in Indonesia so there's some kind of history relation there.

I do agree with you that ASEAN members are equal and have a role individually contribute to peaceful coexistence, peaceful trade, peaceful resolution of intraregional divisive issues. With that said, there's so much possibilities in ASEAN. We just have to consider the positive contributions and contributory potential of each member. Vietnam has high potential, indeed, and so does Indonesia.

ok that is fine.

Good ! I see Vietnam and Indonesia as brother civilizations, brother nations. Sometimes they disagree, but for the most part, politically and geopolitically, you both are more similar than you are different. So let's focus on that positivist and constructionist vantage point.

 

[Viet]

if Indo wants to become a leader, I have no problem if Indo begins to act like a leader.
take the facto EU leader Germany, which pays a price for the title. do you want to know how much?

it is about $300 Billion.

yes, Germany paid netto $300 billion in the last 25 years supporting other members in the EU club.

ok, I would say, Indo pays $150 billion in the next 25 years to poorer countries in Asean.

Don´t come here and claim "I´m the boss!" while paying not a Yen.

 

[Nike]

Meh, Indonesia has more state budget than Vietnam GDP, even at our lowest time....

talk back if Vietnam has 250 million strong people with more than 4000 US dollar gain or 1 trillion US dollar economy.

 

[Aepsilons]

if Indo wants to become a leader, I have no problem if Indo begins to act like a leader.
take the facto EU leader Germany, which pays a price for the title. do you want to know how much?

it is about $300 Billion.

yes, Germany paid netto $300 billion in the last 25 years supporting other members in the EU club.

ok, I would say, Indo pays $100 billion in the next 25 years to poorer countries in Asean.

It is not fair to juxtapose ASEAN with EU, my friend. The EU is a consortium of nations , most of which are ultra developed , whereas ASEAN is still a developing bloc with members that are still in the middle growth and modernizing schema. So we have to be sensitive and understand that dichotomy.

Lastly, Indonesia is a growing economy , as well as Vietnam, Thailand, Philippines and Malaysia. In fact these 5 major economies are the major players of ASEAN (Indonesia, Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia, Vietnam). We have to also understand the historical perspective that Indonesia brings to the table. Indonesia was one of the founding members of SEATO (now defunct) and is also one of the founding members of ASEAN. So on that relativistic point, we have to understand and appreciate that most of the membership inclusion policies written by ASEAN --- Indonesia had significantly contributed to it. Why even the ascension of Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos and Burma were passed through because Indonesia and the other founding ASEAN members had agreed to that notion.

I suggest, my friend @Viet , you take a step back and differentiate any personal qualms you may have with some or several Indonesian members here and note that they do not represent the entire Indonesian People. I am sure that on various parameters there is high rate of collaboration and understanding between Vietnam and Indonesia. Please take that into consideration.

Please i am saying this out of love and in constructive criticism. Please do no take this as a personal correction, just a constructive criticism. I appreciate you and appreciate what you bring to this forum, and I believe that you contribute a lot to our undersanding of Vietnam and Vietnamese social issues. Thank You.



Sincerely,
@Nihonjin1051

 

[Indos]

My man @Viet

Our leadership role can be traced when we help Malaysia to crush its rebel in Borneo (Sarawak/Sabah)

Before, ASEAN is in West camp, you just recently joint after USSR collapses

We pay high price to invade East Timor in 1975 (Fretilin before is toward communism)

We are one of the main force in ASEAN to bring piece in Cambodja and sent 10.000 soldiers there, until now Cambodja always see us as one of its best buddy


We even sacrifice more than Germany

 

[Viet]

Meh, Indonesia has more state budget than Vietnam GDP, even at our lowest time....

talk back if Vietnam has 250 million strong people with more than 4000 US dollar gain or 1 trillion US dollar economy.

I don´t remember that VN claims to be the boss. only you.
oh...your 1 trillion economy can´t afford to pay a small HSR.

My man @Viet

Our leadership role can be traced when we help Malaysia to crush its rebel in Kalimantan

Before, ASEAN is in West camp, you just recently joint after USSR collapses

We pay high price to invade East Timor in 1975 (Fretilin before is toward communism)

We are one of the main force in ASEAN to bring piece in Cambodja and sent 10.000 soldiers there, until now Cambodja always see us as one of its best buddy


We even sacrifice more than Germany

your "sacrifies" don´t bring anyone to celebrate. money matters bro. pls come with a money and I accept you to be the boss.150 billion to be paid in 25 years is a small money for your 1 trillion economy.

 

[Indos]

I don´t remember that VN claims to be the boss. only you.
oh...your 1 trillion economy can´t afford to pay a small HSR.


your "sacrifies" don´t bring anyone to celebrate. money matters bro. pls come with a money and I accept you to be the boss.150 billion to be paid in 25 years is a small money for your 1 trillion economy.

Indonesia provides stability in ASEAN, it is the thing that matters most. Money cannot buy stability just like what happens in Syria. First, we combat communism here in Indonesia. And then we helped Malaysia to curb its communist rebel in Malaysia part of Borneo island. Bring down Fretilin power in East Timor. All of that efforts make the region become more interesting and stable. Clearing communism in Malaysia will affect the safety of Singapore as well. The region thus has adopted market system since long time ago that make it attractive to investors from the west camp, including Japan and Taiwan since 1980's.

What we have Today in the region is due to what we did in the past. (Edit: Of course there is God hands as well)

So, some people need to think deeper before talking. Lack of holistic thinking and inability to see the bottom of the matter will result in poor analysis and judgement.

 

[tranquilium]

ASEAN is not a country. It is a collection of individual, sovereign countries with their own unique needs. Just because some of the nations in Southeast Asia is not getting what they wanted, it doesn't mean ASEAN is losing its way.