IRIAF | News and Discussions

[drmeson]

rafale is 85milion and monkey version of SU-35 is 80million


another proponent of Iran wasting its money on outdated airplanes

I think Rafale costs India like 130 USD mln per unit (aircraft only)

BTW Stealthy Rafale would eat any elephant-sized RCS-bearing Flanker for lunch esp with meteor LRBVR.

 

[Hack-Hook]

Stealthy Rafale would eat any elephant-sized RCS-bearing Flanker for lunch esp with meteor LRBVR.

even if it was not stealthy , its more advanced electronic would have given it a big edge

 

[drmeson]

even if it was not stealthy , its more advanced electronic would have given it a big edge

Gripen-E, Rafale, and EF-2000 Tranche 4 (Captor E AESA) will all dominate SU-35S, the 85 million truck.
This is why Iran needs to focus on its own light-med 4++ platform. We have almost all (not all) ingredients at hand now.

 

[GrandBotBoi]

Unless F-14 AM retires, I see no point in IRIAF having multiple light-AWACS units (israeli EITAM like). IEI upgraded (digitalized, planar antenna etc) AWG-9+ gives a search range of almost ~370-400 km (like APG-71 of F-14D). Its also not slow prop aircraft but a very fast fighter jet that can launch LR-BVR attacks itself, and change locations easily.

I even am not in favor of ASW/ELINT/SIGINT roles for this prop aircraft now as that should go to larger UCAVs like Kaman-22 (Jet powered) or Fotros. Something on lines of MQ-4C. Kaman-22 + Fotros in IRIAF is a problem solver for many things just like Kowsar.



MIG-29 Mu1 9.13 of UkrAF >>>>> MIG-29 9.12 of IRIAF

Much better Radar
IFF
RWR
ECM
Tandem Pylon Configuration
Less fatigued Airframes

Last but not least, they have a larger fleet compared to IRIAF's 23 x odd fighters (Russian sources maintain they delivered 40 ????) who now require MLU or be grounded in the next 3 years. Post MLU they will require an extensive IEI-HESA upgrade of their avionics, cockpits, and weapon systems (even if its Kowsar's avionics package) to keep them relevant in the combat otherwise they are not going to do much in front of EF-2000/Rafale with their lack of e-warfare suites and stupid RPKL-29 FCR system from Gorbachev times.

What you said about further MIG-29 purchases is tricky. Together Turkmen, Uzbek and Kazakh airforces have some 80-90 MIG-29. Then Belarus and Russian stored airframes are there as well. I always liked the idea of IRIAF getting around further 75 x MIG-29/MIG-35 airframes. Even if they are just empty airframes with engines, IEI and HESA have the capacity to give them local upgrades to 4+ avionics packages (Russian won't like it though, political disaster). They will fit in within the IRIAF MIG infrastructure right away. While the fleet will become like 100 x fighter strong which with 42 x F-14AM and 120 x Kowsar-I/II can be quite an interceptor package. This is what IRIAF wanted in 1990s-2000s btw. They ordered further 48 x MIG-29S (9.13) and I think 30 x Mig-31 to create a large robust interceptor force. Meanwhile the Azarakhsh/Saeqeh program was to build a local F-20/YF-17 like a fighter to complement that force.

AWACS serve other purposes, have 360° coverage unlike F-14AM, can coordinate forces, etc. They're a useful asset. Hell they could probably coordinate drones

While yes Ukrainian MiGs are better, Iranian MiGs could be modernized to be comfortable to or superior to F-16/F-18 variants (F-16 being the most used aircraft by Iran's enemies). Many of those MiG-29s from former Soviet are just sitting around and could easily be bought cheaply. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if they could get some from Cuba, Chad, Sudan, or Eritrea

 

[Hack-Hook]

While yes Ukrainian MiGs are better, Iranian MiGs could be modernized to be comfortable to or superior to F-16/F-18 variants (F-16 being the most used aircraft by Iran's enemies). Many of those MiG-29s from former Soviet are just sitting around and could easily be bought cheaply. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if they could get some from Cuba, Chad, Sudan, or Eritrea

Iranian migs are old, modernizing them would be far more expensive than getting better airplane from china.
also it prevent us from using that money on developing our national airplane .
and those migs you want to buy are only suitable for junk yard. if we wanted to buy those junks , Venezuela f-16 were a lot better.

all aside please show me a war that mig-29 was successful ?

 

[GrandBotBoi]

Payloads are too low on either of those platforms. Karrar lacks stealth element for deep enemy penetration.

Shahed-191 if the platform is taken and expanded (something like original Sofreh Mahi concept) with a internal payload of 2000lbs would be a very deadly platform to compliment the Missile doctrine.

High altitude Supersonic unmanned heavy bomber. It will require a more powerful engine than Iran currently makes (unless you want to slap 4 J-85’s on a single platform). But it is possible if Iran develops the “heavy engine” they have announced.

Karrar is still useful as a UCAV and it's RCS probably isn't that bad. It's payload is quite good too

While Sofreh Mahi project died, they likely incorporated what they learned into Sejjil and Ghadir. Which fit what you're describing

 

[drmeson]

AWACS serve other purposes, have 360° coverage unlike F-14AM, can coordinate forces, etc. They're a useful asset. Hell they could probably coordinate drones

While yes Ukrainian MiGs are better, Iranian MiGs could be modernized to be comfortable to or superior to F-16/F-18 variants (F-16 being the most used aircraft by Iran's enemies). Many of those MiG-29s from former Soviet are just sitting around and could easily be bought cheaply. Hell I wouldn't be surprised if they could get some from Cuba, Chad, Sudan, or Eritrea

the Problem with the multiple AWACS strategy in IRIAF is that:

- Iran has massive geography so something like at least ~8-10 systems will be required, assuming the EITAM system Then to protect them from long-range BVR strikes of the enemy that will fly in with Meteor, AIM-120D, you need to provide layer after layer coverage with fighter jets (Take AD out of the equation for now). We do not have that leverage unless the MIG fleet grows like we are discussing (not very likely) or HESA starts giving out some 14 Kowsar-I/II per year and the plane itself gets PL-15 or R-77 like BVR (again a projection). They will become more of a burden in air for the air arm. If you keep them deep inside the Iranian territory to keep them safe from the enemy then what's the point in even having them?

- You need 3D coverage if you are being attacked from all sides. We face threats either from South East/West or North/West. That is about it. We have ground based long range 3D search and track radars too. I am not saying we dont need AWACS systems on Simorgh, I am just not sure how useful they will be in the current IRIAF setup. I would rather have IEI develop a local AWG-9/APG-71 replica (which has a max potential of 700-800 KM search range) and put it on a jet-powered Kaman-22/Fotros to accompany battle groups of F-14Am+MIG+Kowsar in future. We already have seen intention KAMAN-22 caries the DASH ECM pods and have datalinks.

- My own personal belief regarding MIG fleet is that, its all politics in the end. Iran has nothing to do with the US anymore in financial or political domains so it plays around with American products in hand without any fear. SM-1, I-Hawk, F-5E, F-14A, F-4E/D, M-60, TOW, AIM-9P, AIM-54 all have been opened, upgraded, or even copied from scratch as in the case of Kowsar's airframe. But can we do the same with Russian systems? We have never given some heavy upgrade to SU-24M, MIG-29, and Kilo class submarines on our own. Karrar tank uses some ... some tech .. from T-72/90 and you know how much coverage this tank got for those reasons from Russian experts. So the capability is there, it's the political problem that it will cause that keeps Iran from changing the Russian system. Russians demand money, they have front companies in Belarus, Serbia, Bulgaria and previously in Ukraine itself in 90s that offer spare parts, and upgradation packages for the same thing that we can do on our own.

Even if we procure some 70-80 x SU-35S for 6 BLN USD from Moscow, they will still not let Iran produce its spare parts at home or have any decent TOT to produce more airframes. DPRK wanted domestic production for MIG-29 in 80s and 90s but USSR and later Russia provided them some 14-16 kits for assembly and fleet even to this day is dependent upon Russian supplies. A mere political dispute will end up grounding this fleet.

This is why we have the following American origin systems in IRIAF:

- F-14A upgraded to F-14AM
- Fakour-90 took birth from AIM-54
- F-4E/D (some) have been extensively upgraded with local Radars and AShCM
- F-5E/F airframe has been built from scratch in Iran
- AIM-9P is locally produced as Fatter

We do not see any similar upgradation of any Russian system

- SU-24 fleet got mild upgradations by Russian companies
- MIG-29 fleet got new engines directly from Russia
- SU-25 have been returned to Iraq
- SU-22 are anamoly in this case that they have been upgraded but one squadron

 

[GrandBotBoi]

the Problem with the multiple AWACS strategy in IRIAF is that:

- Iran has massive geography so something like at least ~8-10 systems will be required, assuming the EITAM system Then to protect them from long-range BVR strikes of the enemy that will fly in with Meteor, AIM-120D, you need to provide layer after layer coverage with fighter jets (Take AD out of the equation for now). We do not have that leverage unless the MIG fleet grows like we are discussing (not very likely) or HESA starts giving out some 14 Kowsar-I/II per year and the plane itself gets PL-15 or R-77 like BVR (again a projection). They will become more of a burden in air for the air arm. If you keep them deep inside the Iranian territory to keep them safe from the enemy then what's the point in even having them?

- You need 3D coverage if you are being attacked from all sides. We face threats either from South East/West or North/West. That is about it. We have ground based long range 3D search and track radars too. I am not saying we dont need AWACS systems on Simorgh, I am just not sure how useful they will be in the current IRIAF setup. I would rather have IEI develop a local AWG-9/APG-71 replica (which has a max potential of 700-800 KM search range) and put it on a jet-powered Kaman-22/Fotros to accompany battle groups of F-14Am+MIG+Kowsar in future. We already have seen intention KAMAN-22 caries the DASH ECM pods and have datalinks.

- My own personal belief regarding MIG fleet is that, its all politics in the end. Iran has nothing to do with the US anymore in financial or political domains so it plays around with American products in hand without any fear. SM-1, I-Hawk, F-5E, F-14A, F-4E/D, M-60, TOW, AIM-9P, AIM-54 all have been opened, upgraded, or even copied from scratch as in the case of Kowsar's airframe. But can we do the same with Russian systems? We have never given some heavy upgrade to SU-24M, MIG-29, and Kilo class submarines on our own. Karrar tank uses some ... some tech .. from T-72/90 and you know how much coverage this tank got for those reasons from Russian experts. So the capability is there, it's the political problem that it will cause that keeps Iran from changing the Russian system. Russians demand money, they have front companies in Belarus, Serbia, Bulgaria and previously in Ukraine itself in 90s that offer spare parts, and upgradation packages for the same thing that we can do on our own.

Even if we procure some 70-80 x SU-35S for 6 BLN USD from Moscow, they will still not let Iran produce its spare parts at home or have any decent TOT to produce more airframes. DPRK wanted domestic production for MIG-29 in 80s and 90s but USSR and later Russia provided them some 14-16 kits for assembly and fleet even to this day is dependent upon Russian supplies. A mere political dispute will end up grounding this fleet.

This is why we have the following American origin systems in IRIAF:

- F-14A upgraded to F-14AM
- Fakour-90 took birth from AIM-54
- F-4E/D (some) have been extensively upgraded with local Radars and AShCM
- F-5E/F airframe has been built from scratch in Iran
- AIM-9P is locally produced as Fatter

We do not see any similar upgradation of any Russian system

- SU-24 fleet got mild upgradations by Russian companies
- MIG-29 fleet got new engines directly from Russia
- SU-25 have been returned to Iraq
- SU-22 are anamoly in this case that they have been upgraded but one squadron

In combat there's no situation where AWACS fly without other aircraft in the air. Also with their radar range, they can't detect other aircraft long before they can engage with those missiles.

Russia/CSAT no longer can be pushed around by US pressure, that's something that works well for Iran in regards to fighter jets. Russia is probably desperate to sell those SU-35S they made, and Iran can also take that to it's advantage and push for TOT

Russia let Iran build T-72S and BMP-2 (albeit no TOT for V-84 engine afaik) probably because Iran ordered an insane amount (thousands).

Russia's also looking to retire its MiG-29s, that's a fleet of hundreds of aircraft. Iran could definitely negotiate to buy some off Russia alongside engines (no need for engine TOT, buying them from Russia steadily can improve relations).

 

[WudangMaster]

There was discussion a while back about using blimps as awacs platforms, could such a thing be outfitted with enough armaments to shoot down incoming a2a missiles or is the reaction time simply make that unlikely?

 

[drmeson]

There was discussion a while back about using blimps as awacs platforms, could such a thing be outfitted with enough armaments to shoot down incoming a2a missiles or is the reaction time simply make that unlikely?

https://www.iranintl.com/en/202204229123

 

[Hack-Hook]

We do not have that leverage unless the MIG fleet grows like we are discussing (not very likely) or HESA starts giving out some 14 Kowsar-I/II per year and the plane itself gets PL-15 or R-77 like BVR (again a projection).

well i hope the first part don't happen about the second part i doubt we get any PL-15 from china , without a major order for an airplane like JF-17 ot J-10 . but there is another possibility
AIM-120 is a development over AIM-7, we received AIM-7 wonder why we never tried to develop them farther into something like AIM-120, that would have given us a more versatile platform for BVR.

- SU-24 fleet got mild upgradations by Russian companies
- MIG-29 fleet got new engines directly from Russia

when those happened ?

Russia/CSAT no longer can be pushed around by US pressure, that's something that works well for Iran in regards to fighter jets. Russia is probably desperate to sell those SU-35S they made, and Iran can also take that to it's advantage and push for TOT

Russia is desperate to integrate those Su-35 in its air-force , they have NATO threat in their western border, there they face F-35, Eurofighter, Rafale and Gripen every one of them of the best in its class, those airplane eat current aging Russians air-force alive and drink their air-defense system over it, you must say goodbye to any Russian airplane for foreseeable future

 

[Hack-Hook]

Russia let Iran build T-72S and BMP-2 (albeit no TOT for V-84 engine afaik) probably because Iran ordered an insane amount (thousands).

they let outdated products, and even for those they didn't allow production of the engine as we could use that in other products and they don't want us strong , they want us only as a nuisance for USA in middle-east

Russia's also looking to retire its MiG-29s, that's a fleet of hundreds of aircraft. Iran could definitely negotiate to buy some off Russia alongside engines (no need for engine TOT, buying them from Russia steadily can improve relations).

that would be Treason , buy hundreds of old mig-29 that even cant stand against UAE and KSA air-force and effectively end the path for Kowsar development ? and even don't get a TOT for an old engine like RD-33 which is not even considered a high grade engine.

are you sure what you implied by that post

 

[drmeson]

In combat there's no situation where AWACS fly without other aircraft in the air. Also with their radar range, they can't detect other aircraft long before they can engage with those missiles.

Russia/CSAT no longer can be pushed around by US pressure, that's something that works well for Iran in regards to fighter jets. Russia is probably desperate to sell those SU-35S they made, and Iran can also take that to it's advantage and push for TOT

Russia let Iran build T-72S and BMP-2 (albeit no TOT for V-84 engine afaik) probably because Iran ordered an insane amount (thousands).

Russia's also looking to retire its MiG-29s, that's a fleet of hundreds of aircraft. Iran could definitely negotiate to buy some off Russia alongside engines (no need for engine TOT, buying them from Russia steadily can improve relations).

- That's my point, unless IRIAF has a proper dedicated interceptor force of some 200+ 4th Generation Interceptors with LR-BVR the AWACS safety will be questionable. Right now the interceptor force is barely ~70 aircraft strong. If 100-120 Kowsar-I/II (next-gen) gets fully operationalized and they manage to arrange PL-12/15/R-77 BVR missile for it then we can afford to have local AWACS platforms on turboprops. Till then GWACS and Unmanned ELINT/SIGINT is the way to go.

- Its not about Russians conforming to American pressure, it's what Russian themselves want. They do not allow their friendly states to create local upgradation programs on Russian weaponry the way Iran has played around with American systems. Even to this day not a single MIG-29 variant exists with an upgradation program without Russian company involvement. Let alone SU-27 family or MIG-29, the MIG-21 has some 30 variants thick majority of which are of Russian upgradation programs.

- Karrar came into being after T-90SM talks failed (surprise surprise), even then Russian military experts were calling it an Iranian attempt to copy T90.

- Yes I myself am a supporter of IRIAF having some additional ~50 MIG-29 who are upgraded by Russian companies + IEI + HESA. An interceptor force of 120 x F-14Am + MIG-29M and further 120 x Kowsar-I/II means Iranian skies are secure.

 

[Hack-Hook]

- Yes I myself am a supporter of IRIAF having some additional ~50 MIG-29 who are upgraded by Russian companies + IEI + HESA. An interceptor force of 120 x F-14Am + MIG-29M and further 120 x Kowsar-I/II means Iranian skies are secure.

congratulation not upgraded for 23m upgraded god now how much and you effectively ended kowsar program and didn't get even a ToT on a single bolt used there.
remind me of what happened to Avro Canada CF-105 Arrow and nearly happened to JAS-39 Grippen (escaped by just 5 vote) now for that disastrous decision this happened to canada

Within two months of the project cancellation, all aircraft, engines, production tooling and technical data were ordered scrapped.[90] Officially, the reason given for the destruction order from cabinet and the chiefs of staff was to destroy classified and "secret" materials used in the Arrow and Iroquois programs.[91] The action has been attributed to Royal Canadian Mounted Police fears that a Soviet "mole" had infiltrated Avro,

Following the cancellation of the Avro Arrow project, CF-105 chief aerodynamicist Jim Chamberlin led a team of 25 engineers to NASA's Space Task Group to become lead engineers, program managers, and heads of engineering in NASA's manned space programs—projects Mercury, Gemini and Apollo.[95] The Space Task Group team eventually grew to 32 Avro engineers and technicians, and became emblematic of what many Canadians viewed as a "brain drain" to the United States.

Many other engineers, including Jim Floyd, found work in either the UK or the United States. Work undertaken by both Avro Canada and Floyd benefited supersonic research at Hawker Siddeley, Avro Aircraft's UK parent, and contributed to programs such as the HSA.1000 supersonic transport design studies, influential in the design of the Concorde.

and what Canada royal airforce got of the fiasco, the inferior shit

the RCAF obtained 66 McDonnell CF-101 Voodoo aircraft, one of the American designs the RCAF originally rejected, to serve in the role originally intended for the Avro Arrow.

now look at sweden and what they got of the project

Developing an advanced multi-role fighter was a major undertaking for Sweden. The predecessor 37 Viggen had been criticized for occupying too much of Sweden's military budget and was branded "a cuckoo in the military nest" by critics as early as 1971. At the 1972 party congress of the Socialdemokraterna, the dominant party in Swedish politics since the 1950s, a motion was passed to stop any future projects to develop advanced military aircraft.[43] In 1982, the Gripen project passed in the Riksdag by a margin of 176 for and 167 against, with the entire Social Democratic party voting against the proposal due to demands for more studies. A new bill was introduced in 1983[44] and a final approval was given in April 1983 with the condition that the project was to have a predetermined fixed-price contract

now they went on with their project instead of what traitorous Canadian politician did and after 35 year of work they got this

the deadliest and most advanced light fighter available there and above all one of the cheapest out there to operate by just 5800$ /hours of flight its twice for j-10c and f-16 and thrice for F-18 for rafale and Eurofighter its 4 time and for f-35 its 6time that amount.

you can decide here going Canada route , getting old Russians airplanes that never ever were successful in real war and effectively destroy all achieved in Kowsar project or go Sweden route ,invest that money on Kowsar project

 

[Sineva]

congratulation not upgraded for 23m upgraded god now how much and you effectively ended kowsar program and didn't get even a ToT on a single bolt used there.
remind me of what happened to Avro Canada CF-105 Arrow and nearly happened to JAS-39 Grippen (escaped by just 5 vote) now for that disastrous decision this happened to canada



and what Canada royal airforce got of the fiasco, the inferior shit


now look at sweden and what they got of the project

now they went on with their project instead of what traitorous Canadian politician did and after 35 year of work they got this

the deadliest and most advanced light fighter available there and above all one of the cheapest out there to operate by just 5800$ /hours of flight its twice for j-10c and f-16 and thrice for F-18 for rafale and Eurofighter its 4 time and for f-35 its 6time that amount.

you can decide here going Canada route , getting old Russians airplanes that never ever were successful in real war and effectively destroy all achieved in Kowsar project or go Sweden route ,invest that money on Kowsar project

Theres one thing that you seem to be overlooking,and that is the swedes total reliance on imported western jet engine technology,indeed the swedes rather unwisely scrapped their own indigenous jet engine development program back in the 50s,preferring instead the expedient shortcut of licensed western engine tech.
Ultimately BOTH the canadians AND the swedes made stupid mistakes that cost them.
Now since sweden has officially come out of the neutral closet and expressed ts wish to become a nato vassal nation one could argue that it doesnt really matter,but in that case why even bother with an indigenous fighter program in the first place.
The truth is that neither of these nations indigenous fighter programs serve as good examples for iran.