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well two aircraft can do that in IRIAF. F-14 and Kowsar , problem is we have A2A missile to do that for F-14 , for kowsar our hand is somehow tied

Yes IRIAF should get PL-15 from China or R-77-1 from Moscow for Kowsar Program and if MIG fleet gets local upgrade. This is a must.

AND

Babaei Missile Industries, the makers of Fakour-90, Fattar sidewinders can focus on bringing the Fatter (heavier AIM-9J/P) to AIM-9X Block II/III standard range of ~60 km. That will be the game changer for IRIAF.

No doubt the latter two points - cost effectiveness and already existing basic infrastructure, represent a weighty argument for a modernization of the existing Mig-29 fleet over purchase of new Su-35 airframes (along with phasing out the Mig-29).

Still, to arrive to a definitive conclusion one would need to compare the capabilities of the types in the interception role and weigh it against the costs generated by these two hypothetical undertakings. Brand new Su-35 will likely be superior to upgraded IRIAF Mig-29. By how much, and would this be worth the price differential are thus the decisive questions.

SU-35S costs around 85 Million USD. Even a small order of 24 planes will cost 2.0 Billion USD for just the fighters ... almost 3.0 Billion USD with armaments, maintenance infrastructure and training cost. IRIAF can get MLUed 80 x MIG-29M/SMT or 48 x MIG-35 for the same amount of money. Both have similar air to air capabilities (IRIAF needs that only) compared to a SU-35S all the while these hypothetical 80 MIG-29M or 48 MIG-35 can fit easily in IRIAF in the current infrastructure we have developed for MIG-29 fleet.

More realistically, even without the procurement of anything fancy, the same 2.5 billion USD can give IRIAF the following:

- 100-150 Million for 46-48 x F-14AM. Cost is 2-3 Million USD/unit, fleet gets heavy MLU, upgrade.

- 1.5 Billion for 150 Kowsar-I/II. Cost is 10 million/unit for from-scratch production and 7 million/unit for repository-built airframe + upgrade. Current capacity is 6-7 airframes per year from one assembly line. If they setup another assembly line for future improved Kowsar-II than production can be doubled. There is a need, there is a solution.

- 700 Million for 60 MIG-29M. Additional airframes from Russia/anywhere + IRIAF's 23 x MIG-29 9.12 MLU + heavy avionics upgrade with Russian help. R-74E and R-77SD gets procured with HMD package.

- 200 Million for 100 x + Shahed-171 and KAMAN-22 in ELINT/SIGINT and PGM strike roles.

This is a proper force that if fights in small battle groups for A2/AD will not let the enemy enter the Iranian airspace easily along with Ambush SAMs on ground.

Prop imposters like like MirageF1, F-7N, F5E/D all retire or sold to whoever wants.

su-35 will track Rafale and F16 block-60+ from that distance only if the electronic warfare system were turned off , otherwise the range will probably get reduced a lot.

Any western/European fighter will deploy heavy jamming when being tracked.

Unrelated but here is something interesting. I read that there was a talk in IRIAF of converting a few old stored/damaged F-14A airframes to dedicated mini AWACS + E-warfare platforms with datalinking. Not sure what became of that.
 
This is funny at best. SU-27 has a frontal RCS of 10-15 m2. SU-27/3033/35 all have the same aerodynamics or just minute difference in the frontal structure of aircraft in SU-30MK that went to India with tiny canards. So here is my question, what happened that the more marketable SU-35S suddenly became "stealthier" without having any visible difference from the basic flanker airframe?

Your source is the wholly inconsistent globalsecurity.org pulling the SU-27 RCS. From where it pulled who knows. It also says F-15 has same RCS as a bomber the size commercial airplane.

You could completely be right, I just don’t see this number anywhere else for SU-35 besides globalsecurity everywhere else says 1-3 m2
 
Your source is the wholly inconsistent globalsecurity.org pulling the SU-27 RCS. From where it pulled who knows. It also says F-15 has same RCS as a bomber the size commercial airplane.

You could completely be right, I just don’t see this number anywhere else for SU-35 besides globalsecurity everywhere else says 1-3 m2

Where did I say it's global security? Sukhoi publishes patents. They did a recent one on SU-57 where they claimed 0.1 m2 for the SU-57 airframe from frontal aspect only (its downloadable). SU-27/33/30/35 figure of 10-15 m2 for frontal RCS came from them directly.

1-3 m2 for any type of flanker is anti-common sense tbh. How can anyone claim a reduction from company claimed SU-27's 10-15 m2 to 1-3 m2 only with RAM (aerodynamics do not change) is beyond me. Aerodynamically, SU-35 = SU-27 (slightly larger Rudders)


1658441453353.png
 
Where did I say it's global security? Sukhoi publishes patents. They did a recent one on SU-57 where they claimed 0.1 m2 for the SU-57 airframe from frontal aspect only (its downloadable). SU-27/33/30/35 figure of 10-15 m2 for frontal RCS came from them directly.

1-3 m2 for any type of flanker is anti-common sense tbh. How can anyone claim a reduction from company claimed SU-27's 10-15 m2 to 1-3 m2 only with RAM (aerodynamics do not change) is beyond me. Aerodynamically, SU-35 = SU-27 (slightly larger Rudders)


View attachment 863973

Can you publish these patents?

As to the RAM experiment:

Russian researchers have developed coatings and techniques in the stealth design that can reduce the head-on RCS of a Sukhoi Su-35 fighter aircraft by a factor of 10, thereby halving the radar range for the target detection. Moreover, the Su-35 aircraft consists of a treated cockpit canopy that reflects the impinging radar waves and conceals the RCS contribution from metallic components.



So depending on what the true RCS of a SU-35S is, you can get quite a dramatic reduction. If Iran applied this to something like a Kowsar-II I wonder what result it would get.
 
Yes IRIAF should get PL-15 from China or R-77-1 from Moscow for Kowsar Program and if MIG fleet gets local upgrade. This is a must.

AND

Babaei Missile Industries, the makers of Fakour-90, Fattar sidewinders can focus on bringing the Fatter (heavier AIM-9J/P) to AIM-9X Block II/III standard range of ~60 km. That will be the game changer for IRIAF.



SU-35S costs around 85 Million USD. Even a small order of 24 planes will cost 2.0 Billion USD for just the fighters ... almost 3.0 Billion USD with armaments, maintenance infrastructure and training cost. IRIAF can get MLUed 80 x MIG-29M/SMT or 48 x MIG-35 for the same amount of money. Both have similar air to air capabilities (IRIAF needs that only) compared to a SU-35S all the while these hypothetical 80 MIG-29M or 48 MIG-35 can fit easily in IRIAF in the current infrastructure we have developed for MIG-29 fleet.

More realistically, even without the procurement of anything fancy, the same 2.5 billion USD can give IRIAF the following:

- 100-150 Million for 46-48 x F-14AM. Cost is 2-3 Million USD/unit, fleet gets heavy MLU, upgrade.

- 1.5 Billion for 150 Kowsar-I/II. Cost is 10 million/unit for from-scratch production and 7 million/unit for repository-built airframe + upgrade. Current capacity is 6-7 airframes per year from one assembly line. If they setup another assembly line for future improved Kowsar-II than production can be doubled. There is a need, there is a solution.

- 700 Million for 60 MIG-29M. Additional airframes from Russia/anywhere + IRIAF's 23 x MIG-29 9.12 MLU + heavy avionics upgrade with Russian help. R-74E and R-77SD gets procured with HMD package.

- 200 Million for 100 x + Shahed-171 and KAMAN-22 in ELINT/SIGINT and PGM strike roles.

This is a proper force that if fights in small battle groups for A2/AD will not let the enemy enter the Iranian airspace easily along with Ambush SAMs on ground.

Prop imposters like like MirageF1, F-7N, F5E/D all retire or sold to whoever wants.



Any western/European fighter will deploy heavy jamming when being tracked.

Unrelated but here is something interesting. I read that there was a talk in IRIAF of converting a few old stored/damaged F-14A airframes to dedicated mini AWACS + E-warfare platforms with datalinking. Not sure what became of that.
maybe , but if they go with Simorgh/Iran-140 program and build early warning and airborne RADAR version of it that they were talking about , that plane would be a lot more capable in that regard
 
i believe both of them are inferior as russia don't have the capability to produce enough AESA radar for them thats why they decided to don't equip Mig-35 with AESA and Su-35s are not AESA equipped and AESA is a must if you want to use your airplane in the next 20-30 years.

The Russian Federation has the technical capability to produce vast quantities of AESA radars and then some, what's lacking is the economy for extravagant expenditures. Also Russian military doctrine, much like its Soviet counterpart before, were / are not focusing on air power in the way western doctrine is. Which from the economic point of view is the rational thing to do for Russia. This difference in general philosophy explains the difference in areas of focus. But it is not because of technological or industrial capability levels.

what you consider in mig-35 , that's a question . certainly a plane like Rafale or Grippen or J-10c if you consider them in class of Mig-35 fare better because they simply have better electronic

Some of the electronics could be improved locally, jammers added etc.

well there is a several hundred page thread about that on the forum , but don't believe Pakistani claims that they shott down one or two su-30 they never provided any evidence , but yes Indian su-30 were kept away around 100km away from the border. and after that India went and purchased some Rafale

There are various possible reasons as to why India kept its Su-30 farther away from the border, one being political unwillingness to widen the aerial skirmish and thereby risk significant overall escalation. Maybe it would have acted likewise with Rafales. At any rate, it doesn't tell us anything about the Su-30MKI's hypothetical combat performance.

the problem is infrastructure to modernize mig-29 fleet is somehow rudimentary , if we want to modernize them according to our current infrastructure we must rebuilt most of the subsystem a new to make them compatible with our current equipment . that's time consuming and need lots of money .
the money better spend on our Kowsar to solve its current problems for next generation of the fighter.

User drmeson whom I was replying to should be the better addressee for this comment. As for Kousar, it does look like a viable and possibly worthwile option to pursue, but light fighters and medium / heavy fighters aren't simply interchangeable. Transition towards an entirely light- / medium-weight fighter based air force would require a deeper doctrinal revision as well as infrastructural adaptations, which in turn would consume time and generate costs, something that would need to be taken into account.
 
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Russia allowed India to modify SU-30. anything possible if in the contract. The issue with modification is it voids possible claims against the aircraft with the maker if problems arise because of your modification.

Or else you can modify any Russian fighter. But later if there is a problem you cannot expect Russia to foot the maintenance Bill by claiming a defect.

Russia has shown to be rather permissive in this regard. Indian modifications to the Su-30 are one example, China outright reverse-engineering and putting their own version of the Flanker into serial production with Russia not filing any lawsuits against Beijing, is another. Iran domestically upgrading its Su-22 offers a third illustration.

Beyond the air force branch, let's not even get into all the weaponry Iran has developed based on or retaining at least some aspects of original Russian platforms. As far as known, Russia never lodged any complaint in reaction to this either.



Both have similar air to air capabilities (IRIAF needs that only) compared to a SU-35S all the while these hypothetical 80 MIG-29M or 48 MIG-35 can fit easily in IRIAF in the current infrastructure we have developed for MIG-29 fleet.

This is where I'm having doubts. The commonly indicated range for the Mig-35 is of 2000 km versus 3600 km for the Su-35. Mig-29's range is put at 1430 km versus 3000 km for the Su-30.

As PeeD remarked:

peed.jpg

peed2.jpg

peed3.jpg


Flankers also have superior maneuverability. Probably other advantages I can't think of right now.

More realistically, even without the procurement of anything fancy, the same 2.5 billion USD can give IRIAF the following:

- 100-150 Million for 46-48 x F-14AM. Cost is 2-3 Million USD/unit, fleet gets heavy MLU, upgrade.

- 1.5 Billion for 150 Kowsar-I/II. Cost is 10 million/unit for from-scratch production and 7 million/unit for repository-built airframe + upgrade. Current capacity is 6-7 airframes per year from one assembly line. If they setup another assembly line for future improved Kowsar-II than production can be doubled. There is a need, there is a solution.
- 200 Million for 100 x + Shahed-171 and KAMAN-22 in ELINT/SIGINT and PGM strike roles.

This is a proper force that if fights in small battle groups for A2/AD will not let the enemy enter the Iranian airspace easily along with Ambush SAMs on ground.

Prop imposters like like MirageF1, F-7N, F5E/D all retire or sold to whoever wants.

I was looking at the advisability of a limited Flanker procurement (Su-30 or Su-35) on top of the above (F-14AM, Kousar, additional UCAV), not instead of it.

- 700 Million for 60 MIG-29M. Additional airframes from Russia/anywhere + IRIAF's 23 x MIG-29 9.12 MLU + heavy avionics upgrade with Russian help. R-74E and R-77SD gets procured with HMD package.

Upgrading 63 Mig-29's to UPG or SMT standards cost India $964 million in March 2008. However the deal included setting up a production line and training personnel in the upgrade process. Unless such modifications were to be done in Russia, it would thus cost Iran the same or a bit more given the elapsed time.
 
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The Russian Federation has the technical capability to produce vast quantities of AESA radars and then some, what's lacking is the economy for extravagant expenditures. Also Russian military doctrine, much like its Soviet counterpart before, were / are not focusing on air power in way western doctrine is. Which from the economic point of view is the rational thing to do. This difference in general philosophy explains the difference in areas of focus. But it has little to do with capability.
it have many things , to do with strong and active airforce your capabilities are a lot different than being only equipped with artillery . Russian doctrine of using mass artillery is outdated if they can't secure the sky . otherwise the enemy can easily bomb the shit out of those artillery lined in front line
and bombing enemy from sky is cheaper in long run
Some of the electronics can be improved locally, jammers added etc.
if we were allowed to improve the equipment on Mig-29 we are also be allowed to thinker with Mig-29 and also we will have the problem of price what you suggest is like paying twice for the aircraft.
don't forget for example electronic in Kowsar is nearly 2/3rd of the price. so why for example spend 4-5 billion on Mig-35 when with that we can build our own turbofan get in class of RD-33 and have as much as next generation of kowsar and be able to use 1-2bilion we want to use to upgrade those-mig-35 , su-35 on acquiring 80-100 more next generation of Kowsar. and also by doing so we streamline our air force and instead of 10 different airplane we will have 2-3 type of airplane that reduce the cost of operating air force a lot.
that also solve our air-force chronic problem which is lack of funds .
There are plenty of possible reasons as to why India kept its Su-30 farther away from the border, one being political unwillingness to widen the aerial skirmish and thereby risk significant overall escalation. Maybe it would have acted likewise with Rafales. At any rate, it doesn't tell us anything about the Su-30MKI's hypothetical combat performance.
one can be that the bahamoot could not compete against midget JF-17 or middle weight F-16 equipped with AIM-120 or PL-12. who knew ,but still remain the fact that India air-force after the war went and bought Rafale while they could produce SU-30MKI locally (at least half of it) and again several month ago they cancelled order for 11 more Su-30MKI.
flanker had its time , but not anymore the air-forces around the world moving toward Network linked small-Medium fighter size equipped with powerful AESA radars , those airplanes rule the sky at least for the generation that is coming and Flanker is not one of them. it belong to the age how fast you can role and how good you can be at dogfight mattered . today that don't matter. all modern missiles cover 360 degree and tied to helmet mounted HUD , and most of the fights are happening at BVR ranges and if you think you can outmaneuver a modern missile you are vastly mistaken .
User drmeson whom I was replying to is the better addressee for this comment. As for Kousar, it does look like a viable and possibly worthwile option to pursue, but light fighters and medium / heavy fighters aren't interchangeable and fulfill different roles. While transition towards an entirely light- / medium-weight fighter based air force would require deeper doctrinal revisions as well as infrastructural adaptation, which in turn consume time and generate costs.
you see a kowsar sized fighter with stronger air-frame and more powerful turbofan engine can carry as much or even more than an F-4 it will be a multi-role fighter so not much problem on changing the doctrine from large fighter to light to medium .
and if you are concerned about range let look at this what limited kowsar is its engine , if the proper fund is injected in production of our Turbofan engines and we build engine bigger than Tolue-14 and Jahesh-700 as we were supposed to do two years ago if the proper fund were given to the team that was building the engine. the range on Kowsar will double just by replacing two kowsar with one turbofan engine in class of 50-60kn look at it like this Owj use 35 g/(kN⋅s) of fuel and for the 32kn dry thrust it use 1120gr/s fuel
if you use an engine like old F-404 it use 23 g/(kN⋅s) of fuel it mean for its 49kn of its maximum thrust it use 1127gr/s of fuel. first they look simillar but lets look deeper . owj at maximum with after burner can produce 22kn of thrust . it means 2x owj produce 44kn of thrust (5kn less than an old f-404 without afterburner) it means to achieve that it use 60 g/(kN⋅s) of fuel in another word 2640gr/s of fuel and still weaker than a single f-404 and wit that much fuel use the kowsar can surpass the speed of sound reach mach-1.6. thats why we say we must spend all the money people talking on buying foreign airplanes on our own kowsar . with proper engine airframe can supercrise up to mach 1.6
or more with external weapon it probably can reach to Mach-1.2 - 1.4 that is better than f-35 (it can't sustain that) and is equal to what Rafale and Grippen can achieve not to mention with after burner it probably will surpass Mach-2.
also with that added power some conformal fuel tank can be designed inside it that made its combat range as much as F-16 and Grippen and F-4 without sacrificing its external pylons for fuel and by being able to supercruise the plan very fast can reach the mission area without touching afterburner something that f-14 or Su-35 or Mig-35 had to do to reach target area.
 
Russia has shown to be rather permissive in this regard. Indian modifications to the Su-30 are one example, China outright reverse-engineering and putting their own version of the Flanker into serial production with Russia not filing any sort of lawsuits against Beijing, is another. Iran's domestic upgrading of the Su-22 offers a third illustration.

Beyond air forces, let's not even get into the many weapons Iran has developed based on or retaining at least certain aspects of original Russian platforms. As far as known Russia never lodged any complaint in reaction to this.
india and china paid a premium for that , the price they paid russia to be able to do that made the Su-30 nearly as expensive at Su-35n for them . in short again the money went to russia
Iran's domestic upgrading of the Su-22 offers a third illustration.
one time i said exactly what we upgraded with Su-22 ? the answer is we more thinkered with the weapon rather than airplane and also consider that Su-22 is just another name for Su-17 . the last one russia produced was in 1990 or more than 30 years ago. thats why they don't care about it
Flankers also have superior maneuverability. Probably other advantages I can't think of right now.
useless feature in modern warfare , as agile as they may seems they are far less agile than modern missiles and modern missiles all cover 360 degree around you and tie with helmet mounted HUD . and majorit6y of fight happen at bvr range.
I was looking at the advisability of a limited Flanker procurement (Su-30 or Su-35) on top of the above (F-14AM, Kousar, additional UCAV), not instead of it.
Just think how much it made maintenance and training and logistic harder , what IRIAF must do is get rid of all the different sort of airplanes it operate and replace them with 1-2 type of airplanes to make maintemnanc3e easier and reduce cost.
 
Hi we all are discussing Russian flankers which is not a bad idea as they are originated from Russia but why we all are not discussing Russian flankers with Chinese gadgets to upgrade these accordingly
as we know Chinese are formidable in challenging USA and Taiwan and others in their region with these Russian clones but with lot & lot of improvements inside so in iranian scenario. All Russian except radars and missiles RWR etc Chinese
if Iran has its own aesa to put in these planes they can do that too but flankers are not that bad except Russians are not updating them as fast as they should accordingly
thank you
 
india and china paid a premium for that , the price they paid russia to be able to do that made the Su-30 nearly as expensive at Su-35n for them . in short again the money went to russia

1) China paid 2,5 billion USD for 200 locally produced Su-27 from kits delivered by Russia, following a 1995 contract to that effect. That's 12,5 million USD per plane, incomparably cheaper than the Su-35 price tag.

2) Then in 2004, after the hundredth Su-27 was assembled in China, Shenyang Aircraft Corporation revealed it was now manufacturing the modified J-11B with 90% indigenous components. No dime was paid to Russia for this. Nevertheless Moscow didn't file lawsuits against Beijing.


one time i said exactly what we upgraded with Su-22 ? the answer is we more thinkered with the weapon rather than airplane and also consider that Su-22 is just another name for Su-17 . the last one russia produced was in 1990 or more than 30 years ago. thats why they don't care about it

The new weapons require modifications to the aircraft's systems. It's an example of Russia's relative permissivity for unlicensed, free-of-charge foreign upgrades to its weaponry.

Outside the air force, there are plenty of cases where Russian weapons systems were reverse engineered and upgraded by Iran. I don't know of any other major supplier (especially western ones) showing this much tolerance in this regard.

Just think how much it made maintenance and training and logistic harder , what IRIAF must do is get rid of all the different sort of airplanes it operate and replace them with 1-2 type of airplanes to make maintemnanc3e easier and reduce cost.

As said, my reflection is based on the premise that all the types drmeson says should be phased out, will be phased out.
 
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it have many things , to do with strong and active airforce your capabilities are a lot different than being only equipped with artillery . Russian doctrine of using mass artillery is outdated if they can't secure the sky . otherwise the enemy can easily bomb the shit out of those artillery lined in front line
and bombing enemy from sky is cheaper in long run

Iran is another country whose doctrine isn't focusing on air power. Proof is in the pudding: Islamic Iran has successfully deterred military aggression by the world's sole superpower for several decades in a row, precisely thanks to this very type of doctrinal approach.

So non-air power based doctrines aren't necessarily outdated, in fact they may be the most innovative one could think of.

if we were allowed to improve the equipment on Mig-29 we are also be allowed to thinker with Mig-29 and also we will have the problem of price what you suggest is like paying twice for the aircraft.

I never talked of improving the Mig-29. And I'm not aware of evidence for the above quoted claim, it appears to be speculative in essence.

don't forget for example electronic in Kowsar is nearly 2/3rd of the price. so why for example spend 4-5 billion on Mig-35 when with that we can build our own turbofan get in class of RD-33 and have as much as next generation of kowsar and be able to use 1-2bilion we want to use to upgrade those-mig-35 , su-35 on acquiring 80-100 more next generation of Kowsar. and also by doing so we streamline our air force and instead of 10 different airplane we will have 2-3 type of airplane that reduce the cost of operating air force a lot.
that also solve our air-force chronic problem which is lack of funds .

I'd suggest to respond directly to drmeson rather than by way of citing my replies to the latter. For I did not suggest Iran should upgrade its Mig-29 nor that Iran should purchase Mig-35's, but that she ought to ditch her Fulcrums altogether in fact.

The Flanker acquisition I'm contemplating would cost Iran less than 4-5 billion USD and would represent a possible stop gap measure until an Iranian medium / heavy fighter is ready. Kousar is a light fighter, it cannot replace the latter category of jets unless the Iranian air force switches to a different type of thinking, which in turn would consume time as well as funds for infrastructural adaptation.

one can be that the bahamoot could not compete against midget JF-17 or middle weight F-16 equipped with AIM-120 or PL-12. who knew ,but still remain the fact that India air-force after the war went and bought Rafale while they could produce SU-30MKI locally (at least half of it) and again several month ago they cancelled order for 11 more Su-30MKI.

This doesn't mean they consider their Su-30MKI as useless, does it. India's a huge country with a large air force, they operate numerous types and won't have enough Rafales anytime soon (if ever) to be able to afford getting rid of their Flankers.

flanker had its time , but not anymore the air-forces around the world moving toward Network linked small-Medium fighter size equipped with powerful AESA radars , those airplanes rule the sky at least for the generation that is coming and Flanker is not one of them. it belong to the age how fast you can role and how good you can be at dogfight mattered . today that don't matter. all modern missiles cover 360 degree and tied to helmet mounted HUD , and most of the fights are happening at BVR ranges and if you think you can outmaneuver a modern missile you are vastly mistaken .

Iran doesn't go by what others do, i.e. NATO and developing countries trying to ape NATO. The potential enemy is too powerful for Iran to commit the fatal mistake of trying to match it in a symmetrical manner.

For now I'm quite comfortable with trusting PeeD's assessment that four to five squadrons of Su-30 or Su-35 would represent a valuable investment when it comes to taking some burden off the IADS grid in case of war.

you see a kowsar sized fighter with stronger air-frame and more powerful turbofan engine can carry as much or even more than an F-4 it will be a multi-role fighter so not much problem on changing the doctrine from large fighter to light to medium .
and if you are concerned about range let look at this what limited kowsar is its engine , if the proper fund is injected in production of our Turbofan engines and we build engine bigger than Tolue-14 and Jahesh-700 as we were supposed to do two years ago if the proper fund were given to the team that was building the engine. the range on Kowsar will double just by replacing two kowsar with one turbofan engine in class of 50-60kn look at it like this Owj use 35 g/(kN⋅s) of fuel and for the 32kn dry thrust it use 1120gr/s fuel
if you use an engine like old F-404 it use 23 g/(kN⋅s) of fuel it mean for its 49kn of its maximum thrust it use 1127gr/s of fuel. first they look simillar but lets look deeper . owj at maximum with after burner can produce 22kn of thrust . it means 2x owj produce 44kn of thrust (5kn less than an old f-404 without afterburner) it means to achieve that it use 60 g/(kN⋅s) of fuel in another word 2640gr/s of fuel and still weaker than a single f-404 and wit that much fuel use the kowsar can surpass the speed of sound reach mach-1.6. thats why we say we must spend all the money people talking on buying foreign airplanes on our own kowsar . with proper engine airframe can supercrise up to mach 1.6
or more with external weapon it probably can reach to Mach-1.2 - 1.4 that is better than f-35 (it can't sustain that) and is equal to what Rafale and Grippen can achieve not to mention with after burner it probably will surpass Mach-2.
also with that added power some conformal fuel tank can be designed inside it that made its combat range as much as F-16 and Grippen and F-4 without sacrificing its external pylons for fuel and by being able to supercruise the plan very fast can reach the mission area without touching afterburner something that f-14 or Su-35 or Mig-35 had to do to reach target area.

My question isn't whether Kousar is good or not, as said it looks to me as a viable and worthwhile project, yes. What I'm pondering is a contract for 48-60 Flankers until Iran is done producing 100-200 upgraded Kousars equipped with a powerful new engine, a goal we're still years away from.
 
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Russia has shown to be rather permissive in this regard. Indian modifications to the Su-30 are one example, China outright reverse-engineering and putting their own version of the Flanker into serial production with Russia not filing any sort of lawsuits against Beijing, is another. Iran's domestic upgrading of the Su-22 offers a third illustration.

Beyond air forces, let's not even get into the many weapons Iran has developed based on or retaining at least certain aspects of original Russian platforms. As far as known Russia never lodged any complaint in reaction to this.

I agree, the threat of lawsuits over reverse engineering or modifying a Russian weapon system is severely overblown.

When Russia wanted to sell SU-35 to China they were hesitant because they were afarid China would reverse engineer. If lawsuit was a real threat like some on here they say, Russia wouldn’t be afraid. They knew their recourse if China did go against their verbal pledge would be very little.

Iran has reverse engineered several Russian systems including TOR-M1 and Russian OTH radar and Russian supercativating torpedo and had zero problems. Iran constantly modifies or reverse engineers American fighter jets/drones/helicopters and America hasn’t filed any successful lawsuit in international court.

My question isn't whether Kousar is good or not, as said it looks to be a viable and worthwhile project to me. What I'm pondering is a contract for 48-60 Flankers until Iran is done producing 100-200 upgraded Kousars equipped with a powerful new engine, something that is still years away.

Kowsar is the best Iran can produce at the current time due to whatever reason (knowledge, talent, funding, etc).

Any bigger fighter jet requires a heavier class engine which Iran has not yet unveiled to be able to produce reliably.

Also any bigger fighter jet will require use of titanium alloys and specialized infrastructure to support the development of these alloys and the airframe itself.

Thus 2 biggest impediments to a medium or heavy Iranian fighter jet is a reliable heavy engine and titanium alloys and supporting infrastructure. Until that changes expect to see continuous generations of Kowsar in a limited production amount.
 
Iran is another country whose doctrine isn't focusing on air power. Proof is in the pudding: Islamic Iran has successfully deterred military aggression by the world's sole superpower for several decades in a row, precisely thanks to this very type of doctrinal approach.

So non-air power based doctrines aren't necessarily outdated, in fact they may be the most innovative one could think of.
let just say in iran iraq war for example our navy boast of Morvarid operation and say we destroyed iraq navy and throw them our of persian gulf. but let see what happened there.
in the phase 1 of operation , air force suppressed iraqi airforce and army aviation protected task-force 421 they successfully managed to supress iraqi defense and let our marines destroy iraqi defence and installation on on the Iraqi oil terminals at Mina al Bakr and Khor-al-Amaya.
on the second pase of the operation navy decided to alone go and close iraqi ports of AL-Faw and Um-AlQasr . guess what happened two Iraqi Osa boat sank by Iranian boats but the situation was not good for 2 LaCombattante Ship so they asked for help from air-force they sent two F-4 armed with 6xAGM-56 each by the time they arrived Peykan was Sank after being hit by two Termit missile it made the F-4 pilots so angry that they hit any , I mean any moving iraqi target they could see and then for more F-4 from Shiraz air base joined them and bombed every port facility and air defence facility the could find in area and literally destroyed every possible activity there , then iraqi tried to send some helicopter and mig-23 to the area to protect the F-4s with the help of F-14s which were send to the area destroyed all those migs and helicopters that were sent to help but 1 mig-23 which escaped , then they went and bombed Mina-al-Bakr terminal
in that operation which is named the most successful operation of our navy Our navy lost half of the fighting force they sent to area and managed to destroy 2xOSA Boat and one Mig-23.
air force destroyed two port, 1 oil terminal , 11 boat (Osa and P6) and 6mig-23 and 1 Mig-21 and one Super ferlon Helicopter + all Iraqi air defense facilities in the area.

so how can you tell me our war doctorine is not based on air force , in every successful operation we had air force played a critical role. we may not advertise it but our army still rely on air force and recently drones which is another type of air force
 
I never talked of improving the Mig-29. And I'm not aware of evidence for the above quoted claim, it appears to be speculative in essence.
not speculative Russia don't sell you the airplane without RADARS and electronic system , it will sell you with them and ask you for their cost . then you must go and remove those and built your own electronic and put them inside . its like paying twice for the airplane subsystems.
This doesn't mean they consider their Su-30MKI as useless, does it. India's a huge country with a large air force, they operate numerous types and won't have enough Rafales anytime soon (if ever) to be able to afford getting rid of their Flankers.
no but to me it looks as they phase out their mig-23s they are stopping order new Su-30 and bought Rafale and they still work on Tejas . to me it seems they plane slowly focus on rafale and thyeir own light fighter and slowly phase out russian airplanes. maybe not today , not tomorrow but certainly in the next decade we see a different type of indian air force which is equipped with more light to medium fighter
Iran doesn't go by what others do, i.e. NATO and developing countries trying to ape NATO. The potential enemy is too powerful for Iran to commit the fatal mistake of trying to match it in a symmetrical manner.

For now I'm quite comfortable with trusting PeeD's assessment that four to five squadrons of Su-30 or Su-35 would represent a valuable investment when it comes to taking some burden off the IADS grid in case of war.
its not the question of what they do , its simple physics , and biology , no pilot can stay counscios if they try to pull out the acceleration a missile can do. dogfight and agility is a thing of past yes they are awesome ,.... in movies . but in reality the fight is done at BVR and the one wins who had better electronic. even if you come in WVR fight , who care which one is more agile , now a days modern fighter pilots only turn they head toward the target and lock it and fire .its not if the target is behind them as the missile can do a 180 degree turn and engage the target from front.

Kowsar is the best Iran can produce at the current time due to whatever reason (knowledge, talent, funding, etc).

Any bigger fighter jet requires a heavier class engine which Iran has not yet unveiled to be able to produce reliably.

Also any bigger fighter jet will require use of titanium alloys and specialized infrastructure to support the development of these alloys and the airframe itself.

Thus 2 biggest impediments to a medium or heavy Iranian fighter jet is a reliable heavy engine and titanium alloys and supporting infrastructure. Until that changes expect to see continuous generations of Kowsar in a limited production amount.
you see , we don't need a heavy fighter , we just need a modern light to medium fighter.
 
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