IRIAF | News and Discussions

[yugocrosrb95]

Oh please … to think an F-5 based airframe could carry three missiles in the class of an AIM-54 is so much ridiculous that it makes any further discussion useless.

I doubt that an f5 could carry a single f90/aim54,and even if it could its radar would lack the capability to take advantage of the capabilities and range of either missile.
It would actually make a lot more sense,not to mention be far,far easier,to reengine the mirage f1 fleet with the mig29s r33 turbofan,rather than attempting to virtually rebuild the f5 to take an rd33.The reengining of the f1 was actually done back in the mid 90s by the south africans and proved to be an excellent conversion,tho ultimately they didnt go ahead with converting the entire fleet on cost grounds.In addition it was also adapted to carry the excellent aa-11/r73 wvr missile,this would also make an ideal conversion for arming the rest of the older western supplied aircraft as currently they only have obsolete sidewinders and sparrows.
Another potential huge force multiplier would be upgrading the mig29 fleet to fulcrum C standard,the dprk has some numbers of fulcrum Cs in its mig29 fleet,so this would in theory allow iran to acquire an example to reverse/reegineer a local equivalent,if combined with a reverse engineered r77,which both the yemenis and venezuelans possess,so no real problems with acquiring samples,this would allow iran to effectively double the size of its bvr capable fighter force.This would obviously be a huge capability upgrade.It would also allow for the possibility of upgrading irans other fighters to be equipped with a modern bvr missile,for instance imagine an f5 with a modern radar and data link capability packing 2 r77s+2 r73s,this would be a nasty combination in anyones book,and theres no reason that you couldnt do the same sort of thing with the f1,f4,f14 etc..
The airforces two biggest problems,imho,seem to be a lack of leadership on the one hand,and with that a lack of [realistic] clear vision and set of goals for the future,and on the other hand just as critically both a lack of technology and a seeming unwillingness,or at least reluctance,to work with those who have that technology,altho one thing that does give one some small hope in that regard was the airforce effectively having no choice but to work with and acquire drones from the irgc affiliated drone producers,plus during the latest military exercises we saw the firing of an old maverick a2g missile that had been upgraded with a modern all weather flir seeker,likely donated from a drone launched munition,instead of the obsolete 1970s era seekers that the iriaf still uses.
In short theres a hell of a lot that the iriaf could do to upgrade both the existing airfleet and its weapons,sadly tho its shows little inclination to do any of these things,and I dont think you can just blame it on a lack of resources,as there were obviously resources when it came to the iriafs 15+ year long failed drone program,not to mention all of the fvcking around with the f5 that the iriaf seems so fixated on for the last 20+ years.
Honestly its pretty sad...

F-5A can carry three 1000lbs bombs, but I guess all 3 of you don't know that apparently.

Re-engine of F1 is financially not viable, let alone buying new fighter jets in current financial situation that Iran is in right now.

Iran has capability to produce F-5E/F and that can be used to develop a modernized derivative as it is possible to do so.

Single turbofan jet engine with comparable or greater output than two J85-GE-21 that would take less space width then landing gear could be implemented into the hull.

With landing gears in hull instead of being in each wing then wings structure would not be compromised as it would allow greater payload capacity that wings could carry.

Nose can be redesigned to allow larger radar, in modern day useful of cannons in air to air is non existent hence removing cannons and ammunition would allow to implement liquid cooling for radar to allow higher output power.

 

[TheImmortal]

F-5A can carry three 1000lbs bombs, but I guess all 3 of you don't know that apparently.

I guess you are truly retarded.

NASA themselves only managed to be able to strap a SINGLE Phoenix to a plane as big as F-15 back in the day. But you claim Iran can strap 3 Fakour 90’s onto a tiny fighter like F-5.

Raisi should just fire the entire defense complex of Iran and hire you. Who needs those engineers, when they have you.

 

[yugocrosrb95]

I guess you are truly retarded.

NASA themselves only managed to be able to strap a SINGLE Phoenix to a plane as big as F-15 back in the day. But you claim Iran can strap 3 Fakour 90’s onto a tiny fighter like F-5.

Raisi should just fire the entire defense complex of Iran and hire you. Who needs those engineers, when they have you.

Says the retard that thinks that it can get away with omissions.

NASA only mounted one for reason to conduct hypersonic tests hence AIM-54 was modified while F-15 only carried one in order to achieve Mach 2 then launch AIM-54 for it to reach Mach 5.

Here’s why NASA Equipped an F-15 with an AIM-54 and why USAF Never Outfitted its Eagle fleet with the mighty Phoenix - The Aviation Geek Club

Here’s why NASA Equipped an F-15 with an AIM-54 and why USAF Never Outfitted its Eagle fleet with the mighty Phoenix

theaviationgeekclub.com

 

[Deino]

F-5A can carry three 1000lbs bombs, but I guess all 3 of you don't know that apparently.

Re-engine of F1 is financially not viable, let alone buying new fighter jets in current financial situation that Iran is in right now.

Iran has capability to produce F-5E/F and that can be used to develop a modernized derivative as it is possible to do so.

Single turbofan jet engine with comparable or greater output than two J85-GE-21 that would take less space width then landing gear could be implemented into the hull.

With landing gears in hull instead of being in each wing then wings structure would not be compromised as it would allow greater payload capacity that wings could carry.

Nose can be redesigned to allow larger radar, in modern day useful of cannons in air to air is non existent hence removing cannons and ammunition would allow to implement liquid cooling for radar to allow higher output power.

Sorry my friend, and I don't know how old are you are your background, but to think this tiny dated fighter could be modified so easily to compete with other modern adversaries is plain naive.

So either do your homework, learn and check reality ... but your proposals are ridiculous.

Anyway, dreaming is nice ...

 

[Hack-Hook]

I guess you are truly retarded.

NASA themselves only managed to be able to strap a SINGLE Phoenix to a plane as big as F-15 back in the day. But you claim Iran can strap 3 Fakour 90’s onto a tiny fighter like F-5.

Raisi should just fire the entire defense complex of Iran and hire you. Who needs those engineers, when they have you.

F5 actually can carry one phoenix under it's belly .
The question is what for . The missile can only be used by two radar in all the world
In case of fakour well the scenario is not as dire but well before making any judgement . I like to knew what is the exact capabilities on kowsar radar. But certainly by carrying one fakour kowsar will forfeit the use of central tankwhich is not ok at all

 

[TheImmortal]

Says the retard that thinks that it can get away with omissions.

NASA only mounted one for reason to conduct hypersonic tests hence AIM-54 was modified while F-15 only carried one in order to achieve Mach 2 then launch AIM-54 for it to reach Mach 5.

Here’s why NASA Equipped an F-15 with an AIM-54 and why USAF Never Outfitted its Eagle fleet with the mighty Phoenix - The Aviation Geek Club

Here’s why NASA Equipped an F-15 with an AIM-54 and why USAF Never Outfitted its Eagle fleet with the mighty Phoenix

theaviationgeekclub.com

Because it can carry only one on the center pylon! That is why! Are you dense? You really think you can put a Fakour-90 on the wing pylon of a F-5? Are you crazy?

How many people have to tell you, you are wrong before you get it in your head? Stop being stubborn.

The F-5 has a **** range to begin with. If you slap a Fakour-90 on the center pylon and lose your main tank now you have an overweight Missile that cannot be properly guided with that weak *** radar and now thanks to your genius retardness the plane has no range either. This is without the joke of adding two more to the wing pylons which is never happening.

You misguided oskhols on here need to stop trying to turn an F-5 into F-15, F-14, F-22, SU-30.

It is literally a light CAS/advanced fighter cheap fighter made for banana countries back in the 60’s. Stop trying to modify it into a different class fighter. America has tried doing that with weapon systems in the past and failed. You can’t have a Jack of all trades aircraft.

 

[TheImmortal]

F5 actually can carry one phoenix under it's belly .
The question is what for . The missile can only be used by two radar in all the world
In case of fakour well the scenario is not as dire but well before making any judgement . I like to knew what is the exact capabilities on kowsar radar. But certainly by carrying one fakour kowsar will forfeit the use of central tankwhich is not ok at all

If you were going to slap Fakour-90 on any other fighter jet you would try the F-4 bomb truck before the F-5.

And yes one Fakour-90 was planted on center pylon of an F-5, but as we saw the idea never went anywhere because it is dumb. Even if we say Kowsar has same radar capabilities as Brazilian F-5 radar so let’s say 150KM range.... it would still be stupid because the range of F-5 would drop due to extra weight and loss of main tank.

Now you basically have to hope an F-5 comes across an adversary it could even detect which would be limited to next to nothing because F-22, F-35, F-16 would all detect the F-5 before it detected them. And since F-5 is not F-14 it would have no means of escaping or maneuverability based on speed. And since you also lost your main tank you couldn’t even escape if you did have speed.

Basically you sent the pilot on a Japanese kamikaze mission

 

[yugocrosrb95]

You mean how many people in here make non-arguments that ignore what I wrote repeatedly.

Complaining about range is non-argument.

Complaining about radar is non-argument.

Complaining about payload is non-argument.

Because it ignores what I wrote about what can address it.

Some of you talk about reality while being unrealistic.

RD-33 is keep being mentioned, Iran rejected JF-17 that is equiped with it while some say re-engine Mirage F1 with RD-33.

Iran reverse engineered J85-GE-21 with titanium compressor blades and rotor.

Iran reverse engineered FJ33 that has small core with twin spool.

Iran produces PESA and AESA radars.

It is not about upgrading current F-5E/F or Kowsar as it is to design fighter derived from it.

Single turbofan engine that has equal or greater output than two J85-GE-21 while specific fuel consumption at most is cut in half to 0.62lbs per lbf per hour in subsonic regime. Taking less space than two J85-GE-21 and adjusting intakes accordingly would allow for rear landing gears being inside hull like Qaher instead of wing that placed limitations on F-5 series and F-20 when it comes to carrying capacity of their wings.

Redesign nose to fit larger radar antenna with more transmiter receiver modules, no cannons and its ammunition in order to allow liquid cooling.

F-5E/F does not stand a chance, Kowsar with its 90km range radar has a chance and AIM-23B / Fakour-90 is ARH like AIM-54 Phoenix hence it would not need solid lock on like AIM-7 would need that is SARH and needs radar to guide it towards target during entire flight.

F-5E/F / Kowsar can carry three drop tanks hence one per wing, not just centerline.

Iran can't just build itself Su-27 ~ 35 tier fighter, Iran with what it has could in near future produce a fighter jet good enough for territorial defense.

What I propose repeatedly is to gain experience and have something to test technologies that can when proven be used for a larger fighter jet that could be used offensively.

 

[Sineva]

F-5A can carry three 1000lbs bombs, but I guess all 3 of you don't know that apparently.

Re-engine of F1 is financially not viable, let alone buying new fighter jets in current financial situation that Iran is in right now.

Iran has capability to produce F-5E/F and that can be used to develop a modernized derivative as it is possible to do so.

Single turbofan jet engine with comparable or greater output than two J85-GE-21 that would take less space width then landing gear could be implemented into the hull.

With landing gears in hull instead of being in each wing then wings structure would not be compromised as it would allow greater payload capacity that wings could carry.

Nose can be redesigned to allow larger radar, in modern day useful of cannons in air to air is non existent hence removing cannons and ammunition would allow to implement liquid cooling for radar to allow higher output power.

In theory the f5 might be able to carry 3x1000lb bombs,however in reality I think you might be hard pressed to find any proof of that sort of weapons configuration in actual operational use in any of the airforces operating the type.
Again in theory the inboard hard points can carry up to a 1000ibs,however this would be totally maxing them out.Indeed the heaviest weapons that appear to have been used on the f5e wing pylons were either the gbu 12 or the agm 65,and both of these weigh quite a bit less than 1000lbs.
Heres a page from a usaf technical order detailing the legal loading configuration of the weapons for the f5e.

What you`re suggesting with the f5 is less a modernisation and more a complete and total redesign that would involve virtually every single part of the aircraft,from airframe to engine to avionics.
Frankly I dont think that the iriaf has the ability to organise and manage a program of this size and complexity,regardless of whether it would actually be worth doing in the first place.

 

[sha ah]

Well a quick look on Wikipedia will give you the following info:

Combat radius (20 min reserve): 120 nmi (140 mi; 220 km) with 2x Sidewinders + 5,200 lb (2,400 kg) ordnance, with 5 minutes combat at max power at sea level

The Phoenix weights approx 500 kg or 1000 lbs, half of what is stated above.

So with two sidewinders and a Phoenix you should get atleast 300 km and keep in mind the reverse engineered Iranian variants, their airframe is built from lighter synthetics like carbon fiber. The info from above is for 1970s 1 seat variants. So realistically the range will increase to likely 400 km or more no ?

However a Phoenix missile and modifications to the front nose cone for a larger radar may not even be necessary. Look at this tidbit from the Wikipedia F-5 page

AA-8 Aphid, AA-10 Alamo, AA-11 Archer and other Russian/Chinese AAMs (Iranian ver.)

The AA-10 Alamo has a range of 40-170 km depending on the variant.

I'm not sure which variant Iran has to mount on the F-5 but realistically the F-5 with modern radar and avionics is alot more capable than 1970s variants.

No matter what I believe that Iran should keep this platform in its inventory. Iran can build these for a few million a piece.

They're easy and extremely cheap to maintain. 4 can fit in a 737 if taken apart. They're perfect for assymetrical or swarm tactics and honestly If nothing else stripped down variants make for a decent trainer.

In theory the f5 might be able to carry 3x1000lb bombs,however in reality I think you might be hard pressed to find any proof of that sort of weapons configuration in actual operational use in any of the airforces operating the type.
Again in theory the inboard hard points can carry up to a 1000ibs,however this would be totally maxing them out.Indeed the heaviest weapons that appear to have been used on the f5e wing pylons were either the gbu 12 or the agm 65,and both of these weigh quite a bit less than 1000lbs.
Heres a page from a usaf technical order detailing the legal loading configuration of the weapons for the f5e.

What you`re suggesting with the f5 is less a modernisation and more a complete and total redesign that would involve virtually every single part of the aircraft,from airframe to engine to avionics.
Frankly I dont think that the iriaf has the ability to organise and manage a program of this size and complexity,regardless of whether it would actually be worth doing in the first place.

 

[sha ah]

Honestly there's nothing special about IRGC. They just get a massive budget compared to the regular army and other agencies.

Some would argue they're more motivated and that may be true but the disparity in budgets can't be discounted.

Recently they were able to put a satellite into space when the Iranian space agency failed. This gave the IRGC an image boost and people were saying "hey look they can get things done when others cant"

However looking into the details, the payloads of their satellite was a puny 12 to 24 kg. The Omid satellite from 2009 was around 24 kg and the space agency can has since placed 50 kg satellites into space (like the Fajr or Navid satellites for example)

The space agency has had some failures recently but they are striving to put a 350 kg payload into space and with each failure they have progressed through various stages. Last time only the final stage failed to reach the required speed.

Serious question: what if the IRGCAF was the one to purchase Su-30's / Su-35's? What if the IRIAF were to be disbanded altogether once its ageing fleet reached its ultimate ovehauling limit? Just a thought. Could this be why sardar Bagheri of the IRGC publicly observed that Iran has signed contracts for fighter jet purchases with Russia? I mean, aren't 43 years enough to switch the center of gravity of the air force? Come on... Of course, personally I'd be all for it. Wa Allāhu 'ālam.

 

[TheImmortal]

Chinese export variant fighter jets (JF-17 and J-10) all use Russian engines. Therefore China is not allowed to export any flanker variants.

J-10 latest gen uses WS-10 engine and J-17 uses WS-13 engine.

A simple search would have let you know this since Pakistan operates J-17

 

[drmeson]

This thread is becoming junk with people asking for the purchase of Mig-25 and fitting I-Hawk on an F-5 airframe.

 

[TheImmortal]

F-5E/F does not stand a chance, Kowsar with its 90km range radar has a chance and AIM-23B / Fakour-90 is ARH like AIM-54 Phoenix hence it would not need solid lock on like AIM-7 would need that is SARH and needs radar to guide it towards target during entire flight.

Just stop talking.

SARH isn’t some magical radar you just shoot and forget and it finds the target by telling it “go look over there somewhere”

A Phoenix does not have unlimited fuel and if your target is traveling supersonic you need to PINPOINT where it will be when Missile intersects. That means it need guidance by a powerful radar because when your enemy is traveling 1200+ KM/HR even being wrong by a 10 seconds means KMs difference in error. So when the Phoenix does its death shot up into upper atmosphere and aims its SARH downward it will FIND NOTHING and then run out of fuel and self destruct.

This is why the SARH equipped 3rd Khordad kill of Global Hawk was so impressive because it used EO/IO to transmit to a passive radar deep in Iran which then found the target. It then fed the Missile the approximate coordinates of intercept instead of using the active radar on 3rd Khordad which would have illuminated the target and warned the Global Hawk it was being targeted. In which Global Hawk would have activated its potent ECW system and tried to jam the signals. Missile then was fired and was fed updated guidance by EO-IO and said passive radar. It activated its SARH (pictures of the ascent in upper atmosphere can be seen online) and then was able to locate the global hawk.


So no, your super F-5 would get torched by F-16, F-22, F-35, Rafael, Typhoon, etc. they would all detect your F-5 much further out than 100KM. Furthermore F-22 and F-35 wouldn’t even be detected by F-5 weak radar and F-16 could likely jam it. Since you strapped 3 Fakours to it, it would light up like a damn Christmas tree on every radar from Tehran to Dubai. You just cooked the pilot.

Lastly you never build a plane AROUND WEAPONS. You build a plane around operational need. Thus building a heavily modified brand new F-5 just so it can carry 2-3 Fakour 90’s is a violation of basic laws of military planning.

If your operational need is to defend the airspace and fight other air superiority fighters as well as bombers then you need a air superiority fighter. You do not take a light aircraft/CAS/Trainer and TURN it into an air superiority fighter.

That’s like trying to win a formula 1 tournament with a modified Peykan. There are classes of aircraft for a reason.

The MAIN reason Iran plays around with F-5 is because it’s cheap to play around with and it’s engines and avionics are 60 years old. It has little to no titanium in its frame.

Iran cannot build a modern fighter because engines are not powerful enough, avionics is way behind, and most importantly every major fighter built today and ones from the past (F-14), have high titanium airframes made to be strong and withstand the stress. Iran currently does not have the infrastructure in place to build titanium airframes. It simply has not yet invested the substantial capital required to build out a supply chain for a modern air superiority fighter.

So no you haven’t found the holy grail, there are 10+ Non world power countries (India, Pakistan, Brazil, Turkey, South Korea, Japan, Greece, Sweden, etc) that could have built a overhauled F-5 copy and no one did. There’s a reason for it.

 

[drmeson]

IRGC upgrade of su22

What does that mean? focus on the points I made. F-4 upgrade to 3.5-4.0 gen combat suite within the framework of Project "Dowran" was real and it somehow fell through. IRIAF is responsible because it was their need and they failed to end it. If they get less budget then whose responsibility it is to fight for the budget ? We only have physical evidence in form of pics by pro photographers that handful of few aircrafts wer upgraded, not the whole 5 squadrons as was planned. It could have built heavy strike capabilities for IRIAF with BVR engagement options on a large platform that can attack and defend itself. Imagine that you have 5 squadrons of a fast, powerful jet armed with 4 x BVR PL-12 + 4 WVR missiles, all the while same aircraft can also deliver long-range ground attack missiles. JL-10A or KLJ-7A both fit perfectly inside F-4E nose. JL-10A is more suitable for the ground attack which IRIAF has been using F-4E/D for a long time. The same radar allegedly came from the Iranian donation of AWG-9 of F-14 to China ... look at the confidence PLAAF and PLANAF have in it that they use like close 22 squadrons of JH-7A which operates the same combat suite. ..... but the project fell through, just like how F-14AM conversions, Saeghe/Kowsar fell through.

Meanwhile, during this time, IRGC has tested dozens of accurate MaRV BM, launched an SLV, fired long range CMs, inducted UCAVs, unveiled Bavar-373 and .... inducted a whole new squadron of upgraded Su-22 which can now fire long-range Cruise missiles. They are fighting wars but still they make this stuff happen. Yes they recieve more budget because they deserve it. IRIAF merger with IRGC-AF will only benefit IRIAF, not the other way around.

Imagine a world that IRGC received the same amount of budget as army . A world they like army didn't have access to their own money

I do not have to imagine, IRGC initially had no large budget, they started as a political militia with no infrastructure of their own while artesh and other conventional branches had Shahi era structure in place. Who ended up as what is in front of us.

Since age immemorial air forces needed both light fighter and heavy fighters

Modern-day airforces are reducing the types of planes they operate to save maintenance and operational costs. I gave Israeli and Turkish examples. In future, we might even see powerful AF's like Russia operating only flankers (basically they are all Su-27 variants) with few Mig-31BM. IRIAF needs to do same.

18-19 Squadrons of potent aircraft.

4 x Su-30SM or Su35S
4-5 x F-14AM
5 x F-4E/D (dowran upgraded to JH-7A or J-8IIM standards)
2 x Mig-29 SMT (half a dozen new airframes and rest upgraded with RVV-AE)
3 x Su-24MK (KH-31 armed)
4 x AEWs on Iran-140 (similiar to EITAM).
200 larger stike UCAVs (Mohajer-6, Shahed-129, Simorgh flying wing).

Thats the best we can have for next 10 years. Most of this list is actually local upgradations or manufacturing in case of UCAV's. Only thing to be procured are 4 squadrons of 4+ gen platforms from Russia/China.