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do you know in which temperature turbo fan engine operate !? its not car engine ....


On paper the max ground temperature the RD-33 can operate at is 60 Celsius on the ground & 200 Celsius in the air!


In various parts of southern Iran temperatures can reach as high as 52 Celsius on top of that direct sun that can create an oven around the engine add to that sand storms or high humidity in the south....

Why do think Iran has stationed and kept it's MiG-29's in Tabriz?

Russian addressed the issue on the RD-33Mk variants!
 
Am not going to research this claim...

When I was active duty, my first assignment was the F-111. First was the D model for training and familiarization for one yr, then it was 3 yrs on the E model at RAF Upper Heyford. The F model was at RAF Lakenheath. The engines for the F-111 was the TF-30. My second jet was the F-16. The F-16 had two engines: Pratt/Whitney and General Electric. The F-111D was at Cannon AFB, New Mexico. That is desert. The F-111A/E/F and EF-111A were at Idaho and the UK. The FB-111A was at Plattsburgh, New York. People can research the environments of those locations. The F-16 is all over the world. USAF war doctrine expects our combat aircrafts to operate anywhere, with the exception of the poles, of course.

Whoever is paying attention to this thread should research the claim about the RD-33 because if true, the RD-33 is either a highly specialized engine for some SR-71 like platform or a piss poor engine design. Sorry for the bluntness.

Maybe I miss spoke didn't mean to say was developed for use in colder temperatures rather it was developed for use in standard temperatures (That's for RD-33's developed prior to RD-33Mk)
It's actually Iran's temperature that can reach as high as 52 degrees Celsius (Southern Iran) that create performance issues! Not that the engine wouldn't work simply that it doesn't work as well as it should...
 
This is the first time in my life -I am 54 y.o- I hear such things. Are U an engineer? Specialist? Could you develop more, please?

Was developed for use in standard normal temperature(didn't mean to say cold temperatures) and the issue was address on the engines produced after the Rd-33Mk variants that was developed in 2001

Just research the Rd-33Mk upgrades and read between the lines

Klimov :: Production :: Aircraft Program :: RD-33MK (archive.org)

The Rd-33 was a genius design that has stood the test of time however for use in Iran's terrain i prefer the Al-31 and if that's not possible an Iranian attempt to improve on the more rugged Al-21 and that doesn't necessarily mean the outcome would be an engine superior to the RD-33. I believe the attempt to improve on the Al-21 technologically would be far more valuable to Iran's science and technological capabilities than reverse engineered Rd-33 ever could....
 
He is right because of cold weather of Russia they use low quality alloy in their engines ... Ukrainian Antonov 140 had same problem in Iran , it had crash because of its engine ... Antonov140 and Mig 29 both have short range and where designed for Ukraine and Russia ... Mig 29 had many crashes in India even after using new engines
if any thing in low temperature you need higher quality materials
Wait a minute! Ukraine is not USSR first! Secundo in a previous comment I said that the Iranian AN-140's problems were a result of sabotages by your enemies. Israel and the US did all their possible to jam the engines provided by Ukraine to Iran. Moreover, Ukraine nowadays is not more than a failed country. Ukraine does have none future. Everything there is a matter of corruption. In Ukrain It is a mafia that leads this so-called country. Everything fails. All Ukraine's hardware is a failure, it is no use to mention it.
no jamming , no sabotage no anything all the plane that crashed had engine failure problem and it was because the engine could not provide enough power in hot climate. even the first one crasghed with a groul of Antonov engineer and executive in it
 
if any thing in low temperature you need higher quality materials

no jamming , no sabotage no anything all the plane that crashed had engine failure problem and it was because the engine could not provide enough power in hot climate. even the first one crasghed with a groul of Antonov engineer and executive in it

With all RESPECT - what you have mentioned is N O T A C C U R A T E ---

I cannot give all the details here on this forum. However, there are bits and pieces of the whole story elsewhere online. The aircraft was selected by Iran because of its engine having common parts and engine utilization specs that matched Iran's needs, and Iran had experience with the engine from (Russian) helicopters (hot and high performance) that use similar engines. Iranian engineers (from what I know) understood with totally clarity that this aircraft and its specs and engines are ideal for Iran.

Iran's mistake was parts manufacturing - or better said (common parts manufacturing with Ukraine).

Few countries on earth are more poor and more corrupt that Ukraine. Which is why it is so willing to do business with Iran (out of desperation). Prior to political promises by U.S. and a very diverse range of corrupt politicians. They even transferred 12 Kh-55 to Iran and China, these were "air-launched, nuclear capable ...". Gives you an idea of that time and what Ukraine was thinking and how desperate they were.

I have been to Ukraine. They murdered an engineer I was working with for almost f**king NOTHING. REALLY nothing. I would have happily paid for him not to be murdered, leaving his wife and 1 daughter behind. I have no idea what happened to them, other than his daughter moved to Munich, Germany.

During the process (An140 TOT and manufacturing/assembly line and design ratification), MOSSAD and Dutch Intelligence that help U.S. and Israel quite a bit, decided to make sure that IRGC cannot have this aircraft (this goes back to what Israel/MOSSAD where thinking in terms of what they can/cannot do with Iran - of that time, TODAY they are far more belligerent since Iran does not respond as it use to, FAST AND HARD).

People have no idea how much Netherlands helps Israel and U.S. in these operations against Iran. Even what happened between Israel and Greece (at the expense of Turkey) ... was Netherlands. It was one of their engineers who was behind (the main culprit) StuxNet.

The engine parts were tampered with.

The details of everything else, I cannot mention as my employers would not be happy for me to divulge such details as it would cause problems for them.

It was 100% SABOTAGE.

Remember this post, so when you hear the details in 10-15 years, it will make much better sense.

--- If I can make ONE CRITICISM of the Iranian government it would be .... "DISCLOSE THESE CRIMINAL ACTS AGAINST IRANIAN PEOPLE AND IRAN - and don't be afraid that Iranian people would panic or be afraid. Many of them will stand up and fight against these atrocities against Iran. There are many Iranians throughout Europe who would help Iran, ONLY if IRAN ASKED OF THEM."
 
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On paper the max ground temperature the RD-33 can operate at is 60 Celsius on the ground & 200 Celsius in the air!


In various parts of southern Iran temperatures can reach as high as 52 Celsius on top of that direct sun that can create an oven around the engine add to that sand storms or high humidity in the south....

Why do think Iran has stationed and kept it's MiG-29's in Tabriz?

Russian addressed the issue on the RD-33Mk variants!

My friend VEVAK, I have a lot of RESPECT for you and your knowledge in many of your areas of knowledge.

But trust me what I say, that they temperature thing you mentioned is ... ahhhh... not accurate.

Mig 29s did wonderful in YEMEN, and in SYRIA, and in IRAQ.

No major problem to do with temperatures.

One could even say the same thing about TF-30 engines in F-14A ...

Also, don't believe everything you read online about engine performance specs. Most of them are incorrect. We use an extensive manual and still those manuals are upgraded/updated by the manufacturer on a regular basis.

Turbine engines are about HEAT. That is what really produces thrust, be it jet thrust or be it spools connected to fans for air displacement.

Turbine engines are high heat tolerant devices.

Happy New Year to you my friend.
 
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With all RESPECT - what you have mentioned is N O T A C C U R A T E ---

I cannot give all the details here on this forum. However, there are bits and pieces of the whole story elsewhere online. The aircraft was selected by Iran because of its engine having common parts and engine utilization specs that matched Iran's needs, and Iran had experience with the engine from (Russian) helicopters (hot and high performance) that use similar engines. Iranian engineers (from what I know) understood with totally clarity that this aircraft and its specs and engines are ideal for Iran.

Iran's mistake was parts manufacturing - or better said (common parts manufacturing with Ukraine).

Few countries on earth are more poor and more corrupt that Ukraine. Which is why it is so willing to do business with Iran (out of desperation). Prior to political promises by U.S. and a very diverse range of corrupt politicians. They even transferred 12 Kh-55 to Iran and China, these were "air-launched, nuclear capable ...". Gives you an idea of that time and what Ukraine was thinking and how desperate they were.

I have been to Ukraine. They murdered an engineer I was working with for almost f**king NOTHING. REALLY nothing. I would have happily paid for him not to be murdered, leaving his wife and 1 daughter behind. I have no idea what happened to them, other than his daughter moved to Munich, Germany.

During the process (An140 TOT and manufacturing/assembly line and design ratification), MOSSAD and Dutch Intelligence that help U.S. and Israel quite a bit, decided to make sure that IRGC cannot have this aircraft (this goes back to what Israel/MOSSAD where thinking in terms of what they can/cannot do with Iran - of that time, TODAY they are far more belligerent since Iran does not respond as it use to, FAST AND HARD).

People have no idea how much Netherlands helps Israel and U.S. in these operations against Iran. Even what happened between Israel and Greece (at the expense of Turkey) ... was Netherlands. It was one of their engineers who was behind (the main culprit) StuxNet.

The engine parts were tampered with.

The details of everything else, I cannot mention as my employers would not be happy for me to divulge such details as it would cause problems for them.

It was 100% SABOTAGE.

Remember this post, so when you hear the details in 10-15 years, it will make much better sense.

--- If I can make ONE CRITICISM of the Iranian government it would be .... "DISCLOSE THESE CRIMINAL ACTS AGAINST IRANIAN PEOPLE AND IRAN - and don't be afraid that Iranian people would panic or be afraid. Many of them will stand up and fight against these atrocities against Iran. There are many Iranians throughout Europe who would help Iran, ONLY if IRAN ASKED OF THEM."
nonsense .
to make the engine compatible with aircrafts they modified the fuel control system and nearly all the crash were because of failure in that subsystem
by the way a question , how many An-140 is operating or ordered by civilian sectors around the world and which engine those planes are using , let help you certainly not Motor-Sich AI-30 series 1
 
nonsense .
to make the engine compatible with aircrafts they modified the fuel control system and nearly all the crash were because of failure in that subsystem
by the way a question , how many An-140 is operating or ordered by civilian sectors around the world and which engine those planes are using , let help you certainly not Motor-Sich AI-30 series 1

Good try, if you fishing for information and sources. Well, I am not going to bite.

You said nothing in your rebuttal that is logical or counters what I said. Even if you do in the future, my ego has been checked-out before entering this forum.

I am here to share SOME information with similar or like-minded people.

All I can inform you of are the following:

AI-30 is actually a license built "Kilmov adapted intake and exhust SBM1" (which was modeled on the VK2000-2500 hot and high)

Fuel control systems don't just melt, not with 21st century level of engine fuel system technology. Ask the people who got financial contributions in Ukraine for the DM23 project.

The aircraft was not successful with export, as its reputation was destroyed by the crashes. So, what is shit got to do with a shy horse? (regarding civilian sector use?)

Iran wanted to replace the engine with a modified LTC4B-8D but did not have ENOUGH funds to do such a project, instead the little money they could allocate was transferred to a blade-manufacturer factory, which the owner got the funds, then got offers from CIA and moved to Visalia CA, and was given a green card and lots of money for his betrayal. (Well deserved since Visalia is a SHITHOLE place to live - been through it once a long time ago and the train stopped there for an hour).

Happy New Year to you
 
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My friend VEVAK, I have a lot of RESPECT for you and your knowledge in many of your areas of knowledge.

But trust me what I say, that they temperature thing you mentioned is ... ahhhh... not accurate.

Mig 29s did wonderful in YEMEN, and in SYRIA, and in IRAQ.

No major problem to do with temperatures.

One could even say the same thing about TF-30 engines in F-14A ...

Also, don't believe everything you read online about engine performance specs. Most of them are incorrect. We use an extensive manual and still those manuals are upgraded/updated by the manufacturer on a regular basis.

Turbine engines are about HEAT. That is what really produces thrust, be it jet thrust or be it spools connected to fans for air displacement.

Turbine engines are high heat tolerant devices.

Happy New Year to you my friend.

My comments are about what we in Iran had to do not other ppls articles and again performance issues in hot temperatures doesn't mean the engine doesn't work or has maintenance issues and blows up due to warm weather....
Performance issues means the Aircraft wont takeoff as fast as it could with the same payload in colder (Normal) temperatures, It means it's payload capacity & range will be effected as a result, it means its flight restrictions surrounding various climate conditions increases....

As I mentioned the MAX ground temperature the engine can operate at is 60 degrees Celsius. Also the Russians addressed the issue in 2001 with the Mk series


Happy New Year! :)
 
Maybe I miss spoke didn't mean to say was developed for use in colder temperatures rather it was developed for use in standard temperatures (That's for RD-33's developed prior to RD-33Mk)
It's actually Iran's temperature that can reach as high as 52 degrees Celsius (Southern Iran) that create performance issues! Not that the engine wouldn't work simply that it doesn't work as well as it should...
Something is wrong with your argument.

I learned to fly when I was in high school in Hawaii. Cessna 152 prop jobber. Pretty much WW I era flight controls. I used to fly over Pearl Harbor then lean the plane over to look at the sunken USS Arizona and other memorials. By the time I entered the USAF I already knew the foundations of flying and basic map/compass navigation.

In flying, hot weather equals hot air which affects takeoff/landing performance.


Extreme heat affects a plane's ability to take off. Hot air is less dense than cold air, and the hotter the temperature, the more speed a plane needs to lift off. A runway might not be long enough to allow a plane to achieve the necessary extra speed.
Every student learn this fact about warmer air in ground school. Not even first orientation flight. Helos are also affected by warmer air. Avgas is not affected by normal temperature ranges and that includes Death Valley in California or Nellis AFB, Las Vegas, NV. Jet fuel such as JP4 in US military aircrafts are not affected by hot summer temperatures.

So either the RD-33 is really a shitty engine or you guys do not have enough runway for a fully laden combat aircraft to take off in the summer time.

Further, by the time I reach flight altitude of 10,000 ft or 3,000 meters, ambient air temperature is winter.


Altitude
(feet)
Pressure
(in. Hg)
Temp.
(F°)
Density
(%)
sealevel29.9259.0100
2,00027.8251.994.3
4,00025.8444.788.8
6,00023.9837.683.6
8,00022.2230.578.6
10,00020.5723.373.8
12,00019.0216.269.3
14,00017.579.165.0
16,00016.211.960.9

Airliners cruises at 30,000 ft and ambient air temperature would be below zero.

So how is it possible that the RD-33 cannot perform for Iran?
 
Something is wrong with your argument.

I learned to fly when I was in high school in Hawaii. Cessna 152 prop jobber. Pretty much WW I era flight controls. I used to fly over Pearl Harbor then lean the plane over to look at the sunken USS Arizona and other memorials. By the time I entered the USAF I already knew the foundations of flying and basic map/compass navigation.

In flying, hot weather equals hot air which affects takeoff/landing performance.


Extreme heat affects a plane's ability to take off. Hot air is less dense than cold air, and the hotter the temperature, the more speed a plane needs to lift off. A runway might not be long enough to allow a plane to achieve the necessary extra speed.
Every student learn this fact about warmer air in ground school. Not even first orientation flight. Helos are also affected by warmer air. Avgas is not affected by normal temperature ranges and that includes Death Valley in California or Nellis AFB, Las Vegas, NV. Jet fuel such as JP4 in US military aircrafts are not affected by hot summer temperatures.

So either the RD-33 is really a shitty engine or you guys do not have enough runway for a fully laden combat aircraft to take off in the summer time.

Further, by the time I reach flight altitude of 10,000 ft or 3,000 meters, ambient air temperature is winter.


Altitude
(feet)
Pressure
(in. Hg)
Temp.
(F°)
Density
(%)
sealevel29.9259.0100
2,00027.8251.994.3
4,00025.8444.788.8
6,00023.9837.683.6
8,00022.2230.578.6
10,00020.5723.373.8
12,00019.0216.269.3
14,00017.579.165.0
16,00016.211.960.9

Airliners cruises at 30,000 ft and ambient air temperature would be below zero.

So how is it possible that the RD-33 cannot perform for Iran?

You take the comment to the most extreme!

Did i say the Aircraft wont be able to take off? No! Hi heat temp reduced the takeoff performance of the original RD-33 and no matter you claim about being a pilot it's NOT going to change that fact!
And the reason Iranian MiG-29's where stationed and have been kept at Tabriz (North Western Iran) is directly due to that fact and nothing you say is gonna change that!
Also, when one factor is effecting your engines performance further contributions of other climate conditions will have a greater effect than they normally would....
And Rd-33 is neither the 1st nor the only engine that has had performance issues in Iran's climate...

Just go read between the lines of Klimov's own statements surrounding upgrades to the Rd-33Mk....
You don't emphasize the ability to retain performance in high heat temp if previous models didn't have that problem!
Klimov :: Production :: Aircraft Program :: RD-33MK (archive.org)
 
India(Indian Navy) being the launch customer for the "Sea Wasp" , faced a ton of maintenance issues.
Not very different from the issues faced by the IAF which was the first international customer for the MiG-29.
But power wise no problems, MiG-29(even the heavier Izdeliye 9.20/UPG ) operate comfortably in Hot and High conditions (10000Ft+ AMSL, 25°C) with the Series-3 engines.
The MiG-29K/KuB are even more powerful, routinely taking off from a 125m runway(Ski-Jump assisted) from the Carrier.(Summers in the Indian Ocean can be very warm >30°C)
 
You take the comment to the most extreme!

Did i say the Aircraft wont be able to take off? No! Hi heat temp reduced the takeoff performance of the original RD-33 and no matter you claim about being a pilot it's NOT going to change that fact!
And the reason Iranian MiG-29's where stationed and have been kept at Tabriz (North Western Iran) is directly due to that fact and nothing you say is gonna change that!
Also, when one factor is effecting your engines performance further contributions of other climate conditions will have a greater effect than they normally would....
And Rd-33 is neither the 1st nor the only engine that has had performance issues in Iran's climate...

Just go read between the lines of Klimov's own statements surrounding upgrades to the Rd-33Mk....
You don't emphasize the ability to retain performance in high heat temp if previous models didn't have that problem!
Klimov :: Production :: Aircraft Program :: RD-33MK (archive.org)
Cold temperatures for parts of a turbine of any sort is minimum 200 degrees Celsius. Meaning way above any temperatures noted in Iran or else where for that matter. Hot temperatures is 4 digits! Your claim is in no way, shape or form connected to reality!

Biggest factor that could affect jet engines in Iran’s climate is sand! That’s it!
 
Hi heat temp reduced the takeoff performance of the original RD-33...

And the reason Iranian MiG-29's where stationed and have been kept at Tabriz (North Western Iran) is directly due to that fact...

Just go read between the lines of Klimov's own statements surrounding upgrades to the Rd-33Mk....
You don't emphasize the ability to retain performance in high heat temp if previous models didn't have that problem!
Klimov :: Production :: Aircraft Program :: RD-33MK (archive.org)
The temperature issue is INTERNAL to the engine. Not external ambient. Your source provided the clue.

"RD-33MK is the first product of major modifications of the basic engine. Its horsepower is 7% higher due to the use of cooled blades made of modern materials including composites."
What is this 'cooled blades'?

A piston driven engine and a turbine engine are internal combustion engines. Both types of engines atomizes the fuel, mix with air, compress the mixture, then ignite the mixture. The controlled explosion is translated into mechanical actions.

The difference between the two is the temperature stability of the components. With the piston engine, temperatures have cycles of peaks and lows as the piston travels up/down. With the turbine engine, the temperature have plateaus. Precisely because of those temperature plateaus that the turbine engine is magnitude more difficult to design, engineer, and manufacture. The formulas for various alloys and assorted minimum or zero metal composites are state secrets.


"Air cooling, which diverts excess air flow from the compressor into hollow turbine blades to carry away the heat, is the least expensive type of cooling."
Am not going to research on the method of blade cooling in the RD-33.

Cooling the blades allows the entire turbine unit to run at higher rpm which came from higher fuel/air mixture burn from the compressor stage. The newer RD-33MK somehow cools the blades which resulted in %7 higher thrust.

So if the RD-33 must be stationed at geographies with cooler climate it is because the available thrust matches the fully combat loaded aircraft for X runway length and air density for takeoff. Not because hot ambient air somehow negatively affect the engine itself.


"The warmer the air, the less dense it is. When the temperature rises above the standard temperature for a particular place, the density of the air in that location is reduced, and the density altitude increases. Therefore, it is advisable, when performance is in question, to schedule operations during the cool hours of the day (early morning or late afternoon) when forecast temperatures are not expected to rise above normal. Early morning and late evening are sometimes better for both departure and arrival."

The MIG-29 with the older RD-33 (non MK) can be stationed at hot weather bases but because of the lower rated thrust, the jet will have to fly with lesser combat load. Mission planners needs this knowledge to allocate packages whether it is for air-air or air-ground for various deployments. Air-air package is physically lesser T/O weight than air-ground package.

I could be wrong about the RD-33. But I doubt it.
 
The temperature issue is INTERNAL to the engine. Not external ambient. Your source provided the clue.

"RD-33MK is the first product of major modifications of the basic engine. Its horsepower is 7% higher due to the use of cooled blades made of modern materials including composites."
What is this 'cooled blades'?

A piston driven engine and a turbine engine are internal combustion engines. Both types of engines atomizes the fuel, mix with air, compress the mixture, then ignite the mixture. The controlled explosion is translated into mechanical actions.

The difference between the two is the temperature stability of the components. With the piston engine, temperatures have cycles of peaks and lows as the piston travels up/down. With the turbine engine, the temperature have plateaus. Precisely because of those temperature plateaus that the turbine engine is magnitude more difficult to design, engineer, and manufacture. The formulas for various alloys and assorted minimum or zero metal composites are state secrets.


"Air cooling, which diverts excess air flow from the compressor into hollow turbine blades to carry away the heat, is the least expensive type of cooling."
Am not going to research on the method of blade cooling in the RD-33.

Cooling the blades allows the entire turbine unit to run at higher rpm which came from higher fuel/air mixture burn from the compressor stage. The newer RD-33MK somehow cools the blades which resulted in %7 higher thrust.

So if the RD-33 must be stationed at geographies with cooler climate it is because the available thrust matches the fully combat loaded aircraft for X runway length and air density for takeoff. Not because hot ambient air somehow negatively affect the engine itself.


"The warmer the air, the less dense it is. When the temperature rises above the standard temperature for a particular place, the density of the air in that location is reduced, and the density altitude increases. Therefore, it is advisable, when performance is in question, to schedule operations during the cool hours of the day (early morning or late afternoon) when forecast temperatures are not expected to rise above normal. Early morning and late evening are sometimes better for both departure and arrival."

The MIG-29 with the older RD-33 (non MK) can be stationed at hot weather bases but because of the lower rated thrust, the jet will have to fly with lesser combat load. Mission planners needs this knowledge to allocate packages whether it is for air-air or air-ground for various deployments. Air-air package is physically lesser T/O weight than air-ground package.

I could be wrong about the RD-33. But I doubt it.

1610081138746.png


Thrust would effect trust to weight ratio meaning your payload capacity would increase... doesn't change the facts about hot climates

1610081369582.png


RD-33 turbofan twin-shift engine with afterburner for the duel-engine power plant for Mikoyan MiG-29 fighter with individual supersonic variable intake for each engine. (tmkb-soyuz.ru)

so lets just agree to disagree
Cold temperatures for parts of a turbine of any sort is minimum 200 degrees Celsius. Meaning way above any temperatures noted in Iran or else where for that matter. Hot temperatures is 4 digits! Your claim is in no way, shape or form connected to reality!

Biggest factor that could affect jet engines in Iran’s climate is sand! That’s it!

1610081677342.png


RD-33 turbofan twin-shift engine with afterburner for the duel-engine power plant for Mikoyan MiG-29 fighter with individual supersonic variable intake for each engine. (tmkb-soyuz.ru)
 

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