Iranian military engine development news and updates

[TheImmortal]

wll more like what F-20 was supposed to be but with more modern equipment. by the way aerodynamic of Kowsae is more like F-18 than f-16

If you are going to go thru the trouble of redesigning Kowsar to be F-20 inspired you will might as well redesign a whole new fighter that is medium class Something like S-75.

Big issue again is titanium alloys and equipment to forge these airframes (ovens, furnace system, etc)

That is a BIG reason we are stuck with F-5 that uses (I believe) less than 5% titanium in its entire airframe.

 

[BlessedKingOfLonging]

If you are going to go thru the trouble of redesigning Kowsar to be F-20 inspired you will might as well redesign a whole new fighter that is medium class Something like S-75.

Yeah, F-20 Tigershark's range was 4 times less than the F/A-18 Super Hornet anyway.

Need a more Flankeresque design but with greatly reduced RCS.

 

[drmeson]

wll more like what F-20 was supposed to be but with more modern equipment. by the way aerodynamic of Kowsae is more like F-18 than f-16

Kowsar-I electronically is superior to F-20 with its double duplex TDL and ECCM package. Tigershark's radar is 70s electronics while Grifo-346/Bayyenat-II is a product of the mid-2010s, Generations apart and it comes from a proven western radar maker i.e. Leonardo.

Kowsar-II must come with reduced <1 m2 RCS from the frontal. The entire N-156 family aiframes do not exceed 3 m2 RCS, F-18E/F has an RCS of 0.75 m2 and (true 4.5 gen), F/A-18 had 1.5 m2. This is the reason that currently USN selected this family over others because they wanted a lowest possible chance of being tracked at BVR ranges. The ocean does not allow you to hide behind mountains or use terrain masking either. F-5E itself has never been shot at BVR ranges because of being small and hard to detect despite being fired upon. Its like Iraqi MIG-25PD kept loosely tracking it but could not shoot it down with R-40 BVR missile which they used successfully against large RCS bomb truck flying bricks like F-4E and even against F-14A. Hashem Aliagha's F-14A was brought down at BVR ranges with R-40.

Another thing which is a must is the CFT's. We had this discussion on Kowsar thread, even if they install minimal drag CFTs above air intakes with 700 ltr addition fuel the range will become decent enough for a CAP flight with Data linked UCAVs.

So we are already standing at an advantage. FBW, BVR ranging Look-down/ Shoot-down Radar, double duplex TDL, ECCM, CCD imaging no escape missile (Azarakhsh) in making. All ingredients are there if they just bring the RCS down to <1 m2, Kowsar-II or Saegheh-III whatever they name it will become a monster to deal with in sky for the enemy.

 

[sahureka2]

as I had thought in the past, why not use the two-seater version of the Kowsar (which has a larger fuselage) to create this new aircraft with the possibility of expanding the internal fuel tank by eliminating the rear cockpit

then always interesting this image of a few years ago that had made us make many hypotheses

 

[drmeson]

as I had thought in the past, why not use the two-seater version of the Kowsar (which has a larger fuselage) to create this new aircraft with the possibility of expanding the internal fuel tank by eliminating the rear cockpit

Idea is that Turbofan will eat more length than OWJ turbojets so space won't be left for fuel tank behind pilot. Besides even if there is more space, why not use it for must systems like T-2 IRST?

Space can be made if 2 x Jahesh-300/FJ-313 becomes 2 x Jahesh-FJ-414A4 with afterburner providing some 12-14k lbf thrust. FJ-414's length even after installation of afterburner will be much shorter than any legacy turbofans. Although the thrust improvement will be minimal over 2 x OWJ but the fuel economy will enhance the range.

 

[Hack-Hook]

Idea is that Turbofan will eat more length than OWJ turbojets so space won't be left for fuel tank behind pilot. Besides even if there is more space, why not use it for must systems like T-2 IRST?

you can consider one thing here look at these photos
RD-33

Owj

ws-13

Half the length of the engine is that afterburner .
an WS-13 without after bernerr is about 2m long have 56.75kn of thrust or 30% more than two after-burning OWJ. i wonder do they need afterburner with the engine for kowsar , a single such engine is only 2m long (actually smalled than j85 with afterburner) and 1m wide provide 30% more thrust and well the airplane with it probably can super-cruise with external weapon f-5 with j-85 already fly very near to the speed of sound so i say if we go with such solution the space behind the pilot can be freed for fuel and anything else you want (J85 with afterburner is 283cm long)

 

[drmeson]

you can consider one thing here look at these photos
RD-33

Owj

ws-13

Half the length of the engine is that afterburner .
an WS-13 without after bernerr is about 2m long have 56.75kn of thrust or 60% more than two after-burning OWJ. i wonder do they need afterburner with the engine for kowsar , a single such engine is only 2m long (actually smalled than j85 with afterburner) and 1m wide provide 60% more thrust and well the airplane with it probably can super-cruise with external weapon f-5 with j-85 already fly very near to the speed of sound so i say if we go with such solution the space behind the pilot can be freed for fuel and anything else you want (J85 with afterburner is 283cm long)

Your point would have been valid if we are to assume that HESA designers will be ok with sacrificing added advantages of afterburning turbofan like MTOW, Speed, Climb, chance to enlarge the frame etc. My question is why would they do it?

Also you are assuming that they just gonna pull out the two OWJs off a Kowsar-I/SaeghI/II airframe and put in the turbofan in the same old airframe.

I am afraid none of the above will happen and I will explain why. We know 6 x Saeghehi/II were reworked 55% local designed F-5E/F airframes while Kowsar is what 88 % local airframe. If Kowsar-I program ends in 2026/27 with 60 fighters, IRIAF will not be left with any more repository of F-5E/F parts at its disposal to just keep churning out another F-5 series. They will have to redesign + build a totally new airframe around N-156 family that can (A) House the heavy Turbofan (B) has the weight distribution to compensate the weight of the new engine. So the airframe will have to be changed, dare I say enlarged which will provide the opportunity to house the systems that Kowsar-I lacks like:

- Grifo-E AESA radar / IEI Bayyanat-III with tracking range of 150 KM for 1 m2 Targets
- IRST (T-2 of Khordad) with 150 KM passive tracking range.
- External or internalized CFTs
- More hardpoints
- Use of larger LA-CM, AShCM. F-5E/F has no ground clearance for that.

 

[Hack-Hook]

- Grifo-E AESA radar / IEI Bayyanat-III with tracking range of 150 KM for 1 m2 Targets
- IRST (T-2 of Khordad) with 150 KM passive tracking range.
- External or internalized CFTs
- More hardpoints
- Use of larger LA-CM, AShCM. F-5E/F has no ground clearance for that.

these can be put in an airframe the size of kowsar , for example JAS-39 have those and is roughly the same size of kowsar.

Your point would have been valid if we are to assume that HESA designers will be ok with sacrificing added advantages of afterburning turbofan like MTOW, Speed, Climb, chance to enlarge the frame etc. My question is why would they do it?

i wonder isn't what you mentioned more in line the power output of the engine than afterburner ?a 50% increase in power of engine compared to two after-burning owj i guess will solve the problem of MTOW , and angle of attack , speed and climb rate, f-5 speed is Mach 1.7
with afterburner and with two Aim-9 for a shotrt time , such solution certainly can reach up to mach-2 for a longer time . my question is if For Example Tejas with one f-404 (80kn) can have a max takeoff weight of 13500, service ceiling of 16km and speed of mach 1,6 or JF-17 with after-burning RD-93 (84.4 kN) and max take off weight of 13.5ton maximum speed of 1,6-1,8 mach and service ceiling 17km
then an airplane like kowsar that with (44kn) have max takeoff weight of 11200kg service ceiling of 15.5km and max speed of mach 1.7 what can achieve with a non after-burning engine that can provide 56kn of thrust ?

 

[drmeson]

these can be put in an airframe the size of kowsar , for example JAS-39 have those and is roughly the same size of kowsar.

I am afraid newer or anymore avionics system cant be fitted inside a Kowsar/Saegheh size airframe. Have you seen the jam-packed insides of the Kowsar-I? where would they fit in a IRST the size of T-2? Currently the plane can carry Shahin Dash ECM pod externally or use its Radars ECCM package for frontal jamming. What if new jammers are to be installed rearwards in future? Kowsar-I is the epitome of what an F-5E can do in name of avionics upgrade, beyond exists a redesign of airframe which I am afraid will happen in Kowsar-II.

i wonder isn't what you mentioned more in line the power output of the engine than afterburner ?a 50% increase in power of engine compared to two after-burning owj i guess will solve the problem of MTOW , and angle of attack , speed and climb rate, f-5 speed is Mach 1.7
with afterburner and with two Aim-9 for a shotrt time , such solution certainly can reach up to mach-2 for a longer time . my question is if For Example Tejas with one f-404 (80kn) can have a max takeoff weight of 13500, service ceiling of 16km and speed of mach 1,6 or JF-17 with after-burning RD-93 (84.4 kN) and max take off weight of 13.5ton maximum speed of 1,6-1,8 mach and service ceiling 17km
then an airplane like kowsar that with (36kn) have max takeoff weight of 11200kg service ceiling of 15.5km and max speed of mach 1.7 what can achieve with a non after-burning engine that can provide 56kn of thrust ?

This all depends upon the dry T/W ratio of Iranian Turbofan. Current afterburners that produce speeds like ~1.8 Mach with a climb rate in excess of 50K feet/min have dry T/W ratios like 6-7:1 (F119 of F-22). Even the Russia master piece AL-31 has a 4.9:1 ratio. Are we to assume that Iranian turbofan will be better than AL-31 in dry T/W ratio that will take a enlarged/heavier Kowsar-II to 2.0 Mach ?

 

[Hack-Hook]

I am afraid newer or anymore avionics system cant be fitted inside a Kowsar/Saegheh size airframe. Have you seen the jam-packed insides of the Kowsar-I? where would they fit in a IRST the size of T-2? Currently the plane can carry Shahin Dash ECM pod externally or use its Radars ECCM package for frontal jamming. What if new jammers are to be installed rearwards in future? Kowsar-I is the epitome of what an F-5E can do in name of avionics upgrade, beyond exists a redesign of airframe which I am afraid will happen in Kowsar-II.

make it one sit airplane , redesign the casing of those equipment , there be many room and if you use a nonafterburning engine equal in size of ws-13 then you actually can save another 80cm there , let add another 1m to that for back cabin and you have 1.85cm of free space you can install that in its upper front section , use the rest for other things

This all depends upon the dry T/W ratio of Iranian Turbofan. Current afterburners that produce speeds like ~1.8 Mach with a climb rate in excess of 50K feet/min have dry T/W ratios like 6-7:1 (F119 of F-22). Even the Russia master piece AL-31 has a 4.9:1 ratio. Are we to assume that Iranian turbofan will be better than AL-31 in dry T/W ratio that will take a enlarged/heavier Kowsar-II to 2.0 Mach ?

i say why build it larger , whats the problem if it remain a light fighter , if they use the 2/3rd of back cabin for fuel , that would be more than 1200 liter of fuel or more than all three external fuel tank an f-5 can carry , another 1/3rd of the back cabin space can be used for other equipment and sensor
also there is another part that can be removed from kowsar and its space put to better use and that is its cannon . so i believe there is enough room if we want.


by the way i made small mistake two owj produce 44kn with after burner not 36kn but its still mean an non after-burning ws-13 like engine produce 30% more trust than two after-burning OWJ

 

[TruthHurtz]

Not sure if this was posted before but this is from a conference back in august showing the development cycle of a future Iranian heavy turbofan. not sure if it's just a placeholder but it's shown to be an AL-31 analogue or copy. Maybe Maduro came in clutch and gave Iran one of Venezuela's Su-30 spares? Or TOT from Russia after drone deal?

 

[TheImmortal]

Not sure if this was posted before but this is from a conference back in august showing the development cycle of a future Iranian heavy turbofan. not sure if it's just a placeholder but it's shown to be an AL-31 analogue or copy. Maybe Maduro came in clutch and gave Iran one of Venezuela's Su-30 spares? Or TOT from Russia after drone deal?

View attachment 888049

Has been posted. It’s a placeholder image. Iran is alluding to an AL-31 class engine in development.

 

[Iraqi soldier]

I have seen the plans of Iran's projects in developing the turbofan engine

They say they got to build a small turbojet engine, AWJ, and a small turbofan engine, JAHESH, but these two types only made one model.
What is the problem with access to a production line?

 

[foxhoundbis]

Has been posted. It’s a placeholder image. Iran is alluding to an AL-31 class engine in development.

Very interesting news. As North Korea is producing its own Mig-29 with its own RD-33, thus, I was nearly sure and certain that Iran will show us in near future, its own indigenous RD-33, but this news does show another thing.
In any way, I am nearly certain Iran will show us in a near future something that will surprise us again. We are living in a new era, in fact, the end of Western domination of the world. This era will provide Iran with new opportunities.

 

[TheImmortal]

Very interesting news. As North Korea is producing its own Mig-29 with its own RD-33, thus, I was nearly sure and certain that Iran will show us in near future, its own indigenous RD-33, but this news does show another thing.
In any way, I am nearly certain Iran will show us in a near future something that will surprise us again. We are living in a new era, in fact, the end of Western domination of the world. This era will provide Iran with new opportunities.

Do you have any images or news on this NK RD-33 engine?

North Korea does not have the industry capacity or funding to develop and build a MIG-29 with its own engine. Thus likely a foreign power (Russia or China) is providing the bulk of resources (tech transfer, kits, parts, materials, etc) in order to bring down costs.